Is Quran anti- secular?
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Khi- Salam. The problem is mquran doesnt believe in code-19 miracle so it may well be that his arguments will fail. This only further strengthens my point. Without code-19 you cannot prove the Quran, not in this time period. We dont know what the future holds but right now code-19 is the access or as bro Bahman would say the GPS GOD cerated for us to get access to the Quran. GOD Bless!
Khizar, you seem like a sincere chap unlike some people. You know the ayaat which is your signature. THAT'S the key to understanding the authenticity and conceptual power of al-quraan. Al-quraan is the ETERNAL PROPHECY of humankind. Humankind cannot operate outside its laws, THATS the grip of Allah. That's all I have to say to you. Peace.
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I never confessed to a such thing!
I don't label myself with anything.
I am just a human being. And if anyone has a problem with that and want to put a label on me then it is their problem. I won't go to the Moderators and complain and threaten to quit from this forum!Simple question to LoteTree (he avoided my precise syntax for a reason)
Do you believe al-quraan is God's eternal system for humankind?
Yes or no?
If answer is no, that's kufr to the Quran.
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Hi,
I am not sure how much we all understand of God?s system and the guidelines laid down in God?s words in the quran and the signs in the world around us.
Do you think God has given the quran to humanity so that we can divide ourselves up into ?muslims? and ?non-muslims??
It seems to be a common understanding that the rules and regulations we can find in the quran are in opposition to the function of the human being and the universe as a whole.
Do you not consider the possibility that the guidelines in the quran are there for our own benefit as humans?The rules and regulations in the quran are not there first and foremost to punish anyone; they are there to tell us how to behave in order for all of humanity to live in a best possible and balanced way.
It seems to be a common understanding that if anyone is a ?muslim? he/she must obey the laws of the quran, whereas a christian does not, as he/she does not believe in the quran.
I don?t quite know how to put it; maybe ?stupidity? is a word best describing this understanding?
It is not because one is a ?muslim? one has to follow the words of God, it is because one tries to follow the words of God that one is a ?muslim?.There is a discussion going on dealing with secular and non-secular government, laws etc.
I am inclined to use the same word to describe this understanding as well.
The worst enemies of islam are religions and their spiritual misguidance.
To ?run a country? in accordance to the ?laws? of God is the only way a country can function in an optimal fashion, but then we must first try to understand the reason for the rules and regulations found in the words of God and the world around us.There are discussions going on concerning democracy vs. islam, further showing a lack of comprehension of God?s system.
Some participants seem to think that democracy can rule a community of humans on its own; that democracy is a total system of governance.There is no such thing as complete and total democracy.
We all have to obey certain ground rules in the universe that humans can not change, however much we wish to do so.
Democracy, therefore, works within a frame of rules and regulations, outside of human control.
This seems to be difficult to understand.The quran is only giving us guidelines wherewith we may build a system of governance in the best possible way for ourselves. It is a guide to an optimal form of democracy, or rule by the people.
It is telling us what is good and what is bad for us. Some of these advices are easy to understand, maybe even a matter of course, some are more difficult to see the reason behind.
We are not supposed to follow every letter in the quran, we are supposed to reach an understanding of what is best for ourselves as a group called humanity. I.e. the most perfectly balanced way to live our lives.It is not a question of not wanting to follow the words, and signs, of God or the quran because you ?do not believe?. If you do not want to follow the words, and signs, of God it is because you ?do not understand? that these words contain the base for a perfectly balanced system for all of humanity.
All our squabbling is due to the fact that we get caught up in details of words in the quran and forget to use our minds to look for the reason for it all.
As an example, the quran does not say that, if you are proven a fornicator, then you MUST be punished with 100 lashes.
It sets a tough maximum punishment as a possibility, to emphasize that this can be a very detrimental action. However, punishment is not the primary goal in islam, the way it usually is in our human law systems; it is to lead us and to set things right, in any way possible, if something wrong has been done.Many of the detailed laws we have developed ourselves, take into account the circumstances surrounding an act, thereby diversifying legal actions.
Why do we not consider God to be vastly more capable of this than some individual human beings?
We are, repeatedly asked to use our senses and our minds, why don?t we reflect on what to use these gifts for?
What is important to us as a group called humanity?
To worship ?something?........? To feed our egos............? What?Regards
Ali Omar
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Do you think God has given the quran to humanity so that we can divide ourselves up into muslims and non-muslims?
Misleading question. The essential being of humankind is ummatan wahid, a single ummah however, since people seek things between themselves, its THEY who cause themselve to be divided (2/213). So you can either be in submission to God's system or not.
It seems to be a common understanding that the rules and regulations we can find in the quran are in opposition to the function of the human being and the universe as a whole.
A wrongful understanding if it is indeed common. Al-quraan's laws are there to ensure the creation of salaam in our lives.
Do you not consider the possibility that the guidelines in the quran are there for our own benefit as humans?
The modernists/democrats don't because to them, al-quraan is an outdated book.
The rules and regulations in the quran are not there first and foremost to punish anyone; they are there to tell us how to behave in order for all of humanity to live in a best possible and balanced way.
This is your opinion. Evidence please.
It seems to be a common understanding that if anyone is a muslim he/she must obey the laws of the quran, whereas a christian does not, as he/she does not believe in the quran.
I dont quite know how to put it; maybe stupidity is a word best describing this understanding?
It is not because one is a muslim one has to follow the words of God, it is because one tries to follow the words of God that one is a muslim.I agree with you on 'stupidity' but disagree in your last sentence. In Quranic discourse, a 'muslim' is a person who has committed himself to growth in an islamic domain. Its similar to being a citizen if you like. As a citizen you undertake the contract to follow laws of a certain polity. A muslim follows something similar to this. So if a christian entered a muslim domain with this pledge, he's a 'muslim'. He can believe whatever he likes and pray however he likes. That's not being encroached upon whatsoeer.
There is a discussion going on dealing with secular and non-secular government, laws etc.
I am inclined to use the same word to describe this understanding as well.
The worst enemies of islam are religions and their spiritual misguidance.
To run a country in accordance to the laws of God is the only way a country can function in an optimal fashion, but then we must first try to understand the reason for the rules and regulations found in the words of God and the world around us.Agreed. Well said.
There are discussions going on concerning democracy vs. islam, further showing a lack of comprehension of Gods system.
Some participants seem to think that democracy can rule a community of humans on its own; that democracy is a total system of governance.I do understand how such naiveness exists. The media does invade the minds to that degree in most cases.
There is no such thing as complete and total democracy.
We all have to obey certain ground rules in the universe that humans can not change, however much we wish to do so.
Democracy, therefore, works within a frame of rules and regulations, outside of human control.
This seems to be difficult to understand.This frame of rules and regulations is the human essence. Al-quraan is the detailling of that essence.
The quran is only giving us guidelines wherewith we may build a system of governance in the best possible way for ourselves. It is a guide to an optimal form of democracy, or rule by the people.
It is telling us what is good and what is bad for us. Some of these advices are easy to understand, maybe even a matter of course, some are more difficult to see the reason behind.Evidence please, that al-quraan is 'a guide to an optimal form of democracy'.
We are not supposed to follow every letter in the quran, we are supposed to reach an understanding of what is best for ourselves as a group called humanity. I.e. the most perfectly balanced way to live our lives.
Your syntax doesn't follow here. The interpretative gap, as I call it , which lies between text and understanding of text will always exist. We can only narrow the gap. But whatever we DO understand, we must follow to the letter.
It is not a question of not wanting to follow the words, and signs, of God or the quran because you do not believe. If you do not want to follow the words, and signs, of God it is because you do not understand that these words contain the base for a perfectly balanced system for all of humanity.
Well, Al-quraan calls it 'laa yuminoon'/ they do not believe. I take this to mean that thier essence has been made inaccessible due to kufr (concealment) of God's signs, especially within.
All our squabbling is due to the fact that we get caught up in details of words in the quran and forget to use our minds to look for the reason for it all.
As an example, the quran does not say that, if you are proven a fornicator, then you MUST be punished with 100 lashes.How do you interpret that? 24/1 begins with an emphatic statement about how obligatory al-quraan is on us. I take that as a 'must'.
It sets a tough maximum punishment as a possibility, to emphasize that this can be a very detrimental action. However, punishment is not the primary goal in islam, the way it usually is in our human law systems; it is to lead us and to set things right, in any way possible, if something wrong has been done.
Agreed. Allah commands with justice and ihsaan/proportionate beauty characterised by asmaaul husna.
Many of the detailed laws we have developed ourselves, take into account the circumstances surrounding an act, thereby diversifying legal actions.
Why do we not consider God to be vastly more capable of this than some individual human beings?
We are, repeatedly asked to use our senses and our minds, why dont we reflect on what to use these gifts for?
What is important to us as a group called humanity?
To worship something........? To feed our egos............? What?What is important to humanity/an-naas is to live so that they may live, die and rise in salaam.
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salaam
But I will not label people so easily. I take all individuals as human beings. And if these humans beings want to believe that the world is flat and is supported on the back of giant turtle or that their scripture gives them a "high" conceptual adventure then I will not label them as "kufr" or "blinkered
Good for you
regards
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SaLaM Idris
lol u do believe this? despite the fact it came from a "hadith"?
Looooolll no idris, i dont beleive that. But who knows... 1400 years have passed. The shias claim that a surah has been taken out of the Quan. Do you think that they just woke up one day and thought "Ahh i know, i will claim that a surah has been taken out of the Quran to support my belief" ?
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SaLaM idmkhizar
Wow. So you are given two verses from the Quran. One with added words and you think its becoz they dont beleive in code 19? That dont even make sense. Code 19 has nothing to do with the alteration in the Quran.
Khi- Salam. Code-19 defines the boundaries of the Qran in our age. Without that there is no Quran but simply conjecture. The Quran as i made cear many times is not just some ink on a piece of paper or manuscript. GOD Bless!
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hypocrisy?
here is a transcript of a converstation with the forum member "mquran".
19/09/2005 113554 mq - its like humans have 2 dynamic poles
19/09/2005 113559 mq - the heaven and the earth
19/09/2005 113603 mq -heavenS, sorry
19/09/2005 113623 mq -part of us soar in this heavenly realm, which the poet captures
19/09/2005 113644 mq -but our earthly realm brings us back
19/09/2005 113700 mq -this is where my love of mystical poetry ends
19/09/2005 113705 Lote-Tree -poet captures both chap..
19/09/2005 113715 Lote-Tree -the hell as well as the heaven
19/09/2005 113734 mq -agreed.., but where we depart is that actual program
19/09/2005 113754 mq -i think heaven can be found in the earthly side of things
19/09/2005 113759 mq -if we follow the path
19/09/2005 113803 Lote-Tree -heaven is within us
19/09/2005 113809 Lote-Tree -hell is within us
19/09/2005 113833 Lote-Tree -we would not know the differnece without them
19/09/2005 113901 mq -potentially, yes
19/09/2005 113917 mq -but they must be given birth to
19/09/2005 113930 mq -thats the whole point
19/09/2005 114027 Lote-Tree - elaborate
19/09/2005 114052 mq - well, the concept of heaven is within us, its actualisability is also within our grasp
19/09/2005 114103 mq -but in order to bring it forth, that requires a prograk
19/09/2005 114107 mq -progam*
19/09/2005 114115 mq -all human beings seek that
19/09/2005 114138 mq -the quran calls this 'al-kitaab'...the writ
19/09/2005 114157 mq -as a programmer, what are u trying to do ? ur WRITING something which the system understands
19/09/2005 114206 mq -why ? in order to exploit the usage of the system
19/09/2005 114235 mq -if we discover LIFE'S program, we could do the same
19/09/2005 114352 Lote-Tree -your analogy fails in the respect that are millions of different programs available... and that is my point - Quran for you is your program - and thats great... but to others it is Bhagavad Gita, Buddhas Fire Sermon...etc...
19/09/2005 114417 mq -no, the quran acknowledges the many different programs
19/09/2005 114429 Lote-Tree -so why bother with quran?
19/09/2005 114513 mq -its the best programming language
19/09/2005 114524 mq -i have not seen concepts so illustrated
19/09/2005 114533 Lote-Tree -for you it is mquran... for you it is
19/09/2005 114538 mq -oh agreedSee the highlighted and now see what you have written now
Can you please tell me where al-quraan approves of 'all scriptures' ?
Hypocrisy?
I think so....
Regards,
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Salam mquran,
Dude, there's the following camps
- submitters
- yuksel's neo-submitters
- toluislam
- neo-toluislam by shabbir ahmed
- layth's camp
all claiming to be 'quranic'. I dont believe in any of thier methods. What do you think your opinion does to me ?
As long as Im in concordance with al-quraan, that's all i care about.
Khi- It's true there are many different "camps" or rather people who understand some parts of Quran differently but that's not the main issue. The main issue is that there are those who dont believe in code-19 yet claim to believe in Quran. I dont understand how that is possible. It just doesnt seem logical to me because in this way anyone can just add up some verses in between what you now call as Quran and voila in a few years therell be a group having another "quran" with additional verses. Those who believe in code-19 i dont have much problems with them even if we have more or less differences in interpretation of ceratin verses for i believe those would be clarified gradually in the future GW as per the ayat in my signature.
In the summer of 1999, the debate went on for months. At one point, 250 mails were sent in a DAY. But at the end, the 19er Arch-priestess Aisha Musa couldn't answer the questions. That sealed the issue for me.
Khi- I dont know why your putting an innocent woman down. Why dont you challenge bro Edip to a debate and then well see?
Thanks. I know the arguments and i've answered them , with due respect.
Khi- Ok.
Pal, GOD HIMSELF didn't postulate your reasoning. Check these 2 out
EVEN IF We had sent unto thee a written parchment, so that they could touch it with their hands, the Unbelievers would have been sure to say "This is nothing but obvious magic (6/7)
EVEN IF We opened out to them a gate from heaven, and they were to continue (all day) ascending therein,They would only say "Our eyes have been intoxicated Nay, we have been bewitched by sorcery." (15/14-15)
So God's telling us, EVEN IF he showed this, they wouldn't believe. So this is the best objective evidence he can give yet people won't believe. So please, don't set up conditions about how to believe in al-quraan when Allah already set it up for you.
Khi- In the above verses GOD is obviously talking about the people who have received enough signs and yet are rejecting and thus would continue to reject, logically which is not the case with code-19 believers for they surely believe dont they? This ofcourse varies from time to time from generation to generation and GOD knows this. Thats why the following verse
When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, We produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
The above verses you quoted are often brough up by code-19 rejectors and then i show them verses from the Quran that those who reject GOD's "ayaat(any signs from GOD)" are kaafir no matter whether theyd believed before and thats the issue here. It's not that we asked for code-19. GOD knew why and He is the one Who sent it to us and we would be arrogant to reject it, plain and simple. GOD Bless! -
Salam Jaxal and mquran
SaLaM idmkhizar
Brother, if you said the rotation of pluto determined the authenticity of the Quran, i would repect your opinion. Have you read the "Da Vinci Code" ?
Khi- Now this statement of yours is what applies exatly to the verses quoted by mquran that those who dont wont to believe would never do so and go on make excuses. Can you see it Jaxal? Your not happy with GOD's code-19 sign and now you say that if plutos rotation was somehow connected to the Quran then id have considered it. This verse is for you
If their rejection gets to be too much for you, you should know that even if you dug a tunnel through the earth, or climbed a ladder into the sky, and produced a miracle for them (they still would not believe). Had GOD willed, He could have guided them, unanimously. Therefore, do not behave like the ignorant ones.
GOD Bless! -
Salam jaxal,
You think Abraham and Muhammad believe in code 19?
Khi- Like i said, forget the past. We dont know what were the conditions at that time. It could be possible that since those were in direct contact with the Prophet then obviously at that time the Quran wasnt written down and people could get the Message through him directly. After the Prophets death people started to forge hadith again and i believe because of that GOD took the true Quran away from the people for many years or had other methods of showing the true Quran to sincere believers of which we have no knowledge. Remeber the Quran says not to argue about things of which we have no knoledge as well. We should appreciate TO WHAT WE HAVE NOW. How many times do i have to repeat myself. GOD Bless!
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Hi Ali Omar,
Hi,
Welcome to the discussion.
I am not sure how much we all understand of God?s system and the guidelines laid down in God?s words in the quran and the signs in the world around us.
Do you think God has given the quran to humanity so that we can divide ourselves up into ?muslims? and ?non-muslims??I agree all of mankind are equal to God.
Do you not consider the possibility that the guidelines in the quran are there for our own benefit as humans?
I agree.
The rules and regulations in the quran are not there first and foremost to punish anyone; they are there to tell us how to behave in order for all of humanity to live in a best possible and balanced way.
I agree.
It seems to be a common understanding that if anyone is a ?muslim? he/she must obey the laws of the quran, whereas a christian does not, as he/she does not believe in the quran.
I don?t quite know how to put it; maybe ?stupidity? is a word best describing this understanding?
It is not because one is a ?muslim? one has to follow the words of God, it is because one tries to follow the words of God that one is a ?muslim?.Can u please explain ur views?
There is a discussion going on dealing with secular and non-secular government, laws etc.
I am inclined to use the same word to describe this understanding as well.
The worst enemies of islam are religions and their spiritual misguidance.
To ?run a country? in accordance to the ?laws? of God is the only way a country can function in an optimal fashion, but then we must first try to understand the reason for the rules and regulations found in the words of God and the world around us.
There are discussions going on concerning democracy vs. islam, further showing a lack of comprehension of God?s system.
Some participants seem to think that democracy can rule a community of humans on its own; that democracy is a total system of governance.Please explain.
The quran is only giving us guidelines wherewith we may build a system of governance in the best possible way for ourselves. It is a guide to an optimal form of democracy, or rule by the people.
It is telling us what is good and what is bad for us. Some of these advices are easy to understand, maybe even a matter of course, some are more difficult to see the reason behind.I agree. But some believers of Quran believe that Quran is anti-democratic and that according to Quran, country should be governed by a rasul/messenger who would follow Quranic laws to govern and add other laws as necessary. Would u suggest the same?
U should give this thread a read http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4140We are not supposed to follow every letter in the quran, we are supposed to reach an understanding of what is best for ourselves as a group called humanity. I.e. the most perfectly balanced way to live our lives.
I agree. I think its important to understand the message of the Quran, and imply in our lives, instead of getting fanatical about Quran itself. But some Quran believers here, claim that every word we utter should be proven/mentioned in quranic verses else u r a 'Kafir'.
It is not a question of not wanting to follow the words, and signs, of God or the quran because you ?do not believe?. If you do not want to follow the words, and signs, of God it is because you ?do not understand? that these words contain the base for a perfectly balanced system for all of humanity.
I agree.
All our squabbling is due to the fact that we get caught up in details of words in the quran and forget to use our minds to look for the reason for it all.
I agree.
We are, repeatedly asked to use our senses and our minds, why don?t we reflect on what to use these gifts for?
I agree.
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Like i said, forget the past.
No. No one should forget the past. The past is what makes us what we are. We WERE cavemen once. We shouldnt forget that. WE were unbeliever once. WE should never forget that.
i believe because of that GOD took the true Quran away from the people for many years or had other methods of showing the true Quran to sincere believers of which we have no knowledge.
So you are saying that God allowed the addition of the two false verses? That would make God a hypocryte.
Remeber the Quran says not to argue about things of which we have no knoledge as well
The above has nothing to do with code 19.
We should appreciate TO WHAT WE HAVE NOW
What we have now is conjecture. Im refering to code 19. Let me say this loud and clear. I repsect that you belive in code 19. I have nothing against code 19. Then again, i dont have nothing against pigs too.
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Hi Mquran,
Here is my answer to ur posts
Do u believe wisdom/knowledge/goodness exsists out of Quran as well?
Or If not, do u beleive all that man knows today, all the discoveries, all the lessons learnt are from Man(MaN BEING SUPERIOR) himself and not from God?
Bang, I believe all the knowledege, all the wisdom, all the goodness on earth and beyond is from God. And Man attains knowlegde, wisdom only with Allah's will/ favour and guidance.1976 "And Allah doth advance in guidance those who seek guidance and the things that endure, Good Deeds, are best in the sight of thy Lord, as rewards, and best in respect of (their) eventual return."
see the difference? Now dont bother replying though.
And Mquran, It is futile arguing with u coz u dont wish to see that GOD'S signs exsist outside Quran too. To u, God's signs and wisdom are in Quran only.If someone talks of stuff not mentioned in Quran or even utters words not in Quran, u ask for quotes from Quran and call them kafirs.
U read the same QUran that we do. But our understanding of it, is different from urs. I said Allah wants us to be respectful of all, and u refute that. Are u saying God is unjust or God doesnt condider virtue and righteousness as essential criteria for humanbeings? I have repeatedly quoted the verses to u but u dont want to see it.
Mquran, I dont have to prove to u, in which discussions u used abuses and in which posts I used Quran quotes. U can see it urself if u do some homework. I dont have to prove anything to u nor do I have to seek ur approval about anything. U r just a human being like me.
Here is my request once again I dont want to discuss with u coz, u lack basic manners. So, this is my final post to u.
I apologise if I have been impolite anytime.
Thank u.Peace!
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No. No one should forget the past. The past is what makes us what we are. We WERE cavemen once. We shouldnt forget that. WE were unbeliever once. WE should never forget that.
Khi- Salam. Oh you believe in that cavemen junk? Well i dont and there are many many people out there who share my views. I believe mankind was created perfect like Adam who new all the names of animals and had probably a much greater intellect than us today. Remeber Quran says
Many a generation before them, who were more powerful, we annihilated. They searched the land; did they find an escape?
And 2ndly i was talking about not to conjecture of the past. All is conjecture. Like i said we dont know what signs GOD gave to them so thats why it is totally irrelevant. These are silly excuses just to ignore any new signs which GOD has or GW will provide us with in the future. Get it?So you are saying that God allowed the addition of the two false verses? That would make God a hypocryte.
Khi- To the Mushaf yes NOT the Quran. PLZ try to understand this. The corrupt Muslims, id say, didnt deserve the true Quran no more. GOD knew whats in their hearts while we do not and allows things to happen accordingly. The statement "allowed them enter in the Quran" is incorrect. The Quran is NOT mere ink and paper which you and most others here have still not understood.
The above has nothing to do with code 19.
Khi- Heh?
What we have now is conjecture. Im refering to code 19. Let me say this loud and clear. I repsect that you belive in code 19. I have nothing against code 19. Then again, i dont have nothing against pigs too.
Khi- lol What are you saying? Code-19 is crystal clear for those whove studied it like bros Bahman, Edip , myself and many others. Some people just cant see the miracle and GOD knows their hearts and thus the reasons as to why they dont. GOD Bless!