My Thoughts On These Debates So Far
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Salaamun alaikum guys,
Idris, good to see you back. You should talk to Lote Tree about 'secular democracies'. The man thinks it brings peace but seems to forget the French Revolution
I'm reconsidering my own participation in these thread because I am unsure as to the background information necessary for others to see where Im coming from. For example, I see people see claiming Al-quran is asserting a 'religious law' and this is opposite to a 'secular democracy'. This is of course rubbish but requires detailed refutation to be shown as such.
I think the best way is to prepare a repository of articles and book titles to help the deconstruction of the baathil/falsehood system and pave the way for God's system to be established. I never expected there to be so many opposers to God's system CLAIMING TO BE QURANIC. That took me by surprise. These are the people so intoxicated by 'modern living' but too chicken to openly renounce Islam. So they are trapped in a limbo and cannot open al-quraan because once they do, it will rip thier arguments apart.
Perhaps the best way is to leave our info out there and act. Al-quraan says
Say "O my people! Do whatever ye can I will do (my part) soon will ye know who it is whose end will be in the end certain it is that the wrong-doers will not prosper."(6/135)
The best argument is al-hajj.
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peace mquran,
Salaamun alaikum guys,
Idris, good to see you back. You should talk to Lote Tree about 'secular democracies'. The man thinks it brings peace but seems to forget the French Revolution
Plus when American "democracy" (plutocracy in actuality that has evolved into a "corporatacracy") was established by the constitution that didn't stop the genocide and theft of the land from the Natives, it didn't stop slavery and all the slave rebellions, plus there were dozens of small rebellions by the working class against their oppressors, we could get into these if Lote Tree wants to talk about it, democracy has rarely ever brought peace, and if it has then it was the peace of the battlefield after they were done slaughtering everyone
I'm reconsidering my own participation in these thread because I am unsure as to the background information necessary for others to see where Im coming from. For example, I see people see claiming Al-quran is asserting a 'religious law' and this is opposite to a 'secular democracy'. This is of course rubbish but requires detailed refutation to be shown as such.
I know, this is why I started a new thread, the other debates were frustrating to me for this reason
I think the best way is to prepare a repository of articles and book titles to help the deconstruction of the baathil/falsehood system and pave the way for God's system to be established. I never expected there to be so many opposers to God's system CLAIMING TO BE QURANIC. That took me by surprise. These are the people so intoxicated by 'modern living' but too chicken to openly renounce Islam. So they are trapped in a limbo and cannot open al-quraan because once they do, it will rip thier arguments apart.
They want the quran/reading to be a personal self-help book that has no part in a socio-economic order, this is a big mistake
Anyways I guess nobody wants to participate in an intelligent debate on the topic, they'd rather just be like "secular democracy is the only way", "the Quran doesnt have enough laws", "100 lashes isn't appropriate in these days", its all bs
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Anyways I guess nobody wants to participate in an intelligent debate on the topic, they'd rather just be like "secular democracy is the only way", "the Quran doesnt have enough laws", "100 lashes isn't appropriate in these days", its all bs
Can you elaborate tis further are you saying that quran has enough laws or not enough laws.
What do you mean 100 lashes isn't appropriate.Just a thought why are so many obcessed with other peoples intelligence or do they have hang ups about their own intelligence!
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peace stillearning,
Can you elaborate tis further are you saying that quran has enough laws or not enough laws.
the reading/quran isn't a law book, it provides laws but its socio-economic purpose is to provide guidelines on how to structure the system of society
What do you mean 100 lashes isn't appropriate.
It is but some "modern" people don't think it should be applied, we must follow God's law not the desires of modern society
Just a thought why are so many obcessed with other peoples intelligence or do they have hang ups about their own intelligence!
I said nothing about the intelligence of other's, some of these debates I've seen have turned out childish and I was just hoping for a good debate under this thread
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Salaam all,
Really I can't understand why we wouldn't be able to use Quranic law in a society today.
I mean why are all so stuck with all already existing manmade laws?
If you will living according Quran and are understand it's purpose for mankind then you can live a good and peaceful life.
I don't need a rule for how i will treat drunk drivers, because Quran don't say how to deal with them right!
But it's rather a way of life, how to behave and how to act, if you are a believer and follower of Al-Quran.
Quran have plenty of verses which telling you how to be just and humble yourself and be good to other ppl.
When you have accept that and can follow that then the step isn't so far to take about how to create an islamic society.
For me it's not impossible and i could gladly be the one who help building one Insha'Allah.
Peace Majidah
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Peace sis Maria, all,
I think it's because most everyone has made a membership club out of their 'gods'...my god is better than yours and if we are going to be following 'scriptural' laws then it will be ours rather than yours and if not 'scriptural' then my laws are better than yours that are stuck in camels footprints...the ones that want a 'secular' society want to keep scriptural laws out of it, but ironically are following other laws that are probably worse off than what the reading states, but thats okay...it's 'modern' don't you know...they claim it's flexible, but every single law made to oppress people does it's job and then when enough hue and cry is made about it a new one takes it's place. In the end, the ones that make longterm sense would finally seal the deal I suppose, there can be only one sorta thing (highlander)...we need to see if proper implementation can reach this goal.
For believers I would think the stance of using the quran as a basic framework and expanding on the areas it doesn't give details on is fine...then you have the problem of what shall we do with different interpretations...hell's horses man...vote for which one is suitable, we can maybe keep the democrats happy then
We need to maybe discuss on what kind of process we could have to choose an interpretation, because thats one amongst other things that many are unhappy about...should a 'messenger' figure do it, can we vote? Secondly, we have the 'how shall we choose the one who will step up to the plate', here some say we will know when it happens, and some want batman...I don't know the answers, but hopefully with some more discussion we might figure it out...hope springs eternal...
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SaLaM SM
Really I can't understand why we wouldn't be able to use Quranic law in a society today.
Becoz Quran wasnt sent with a purpose to give laws on running countries. It is as simple as that.
I don't need a rule for how i will treat drunk drivers, because Quran don't say how to deal with them right!
You tell that the mother of a 3 year old whose whose son was run over by a drunk driver. Talking is easy.
Quran have plenty of verses which telling you how to be just and humble yourself and be good to other ppl.
Those verses arent enough to run a country.
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Salaam Sis Nadia,
Well I agree with you.
Yes we can not make everyone happy that's for sure.
But therefore a messenger must turn up, because Quran says that we shall not only obey God but also his messenger.
Peace Majidah
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Peace Jaxal,
I disagree with you that Quran wasn't supposed to be used for run a country.
I mean the message of peace and patiency and how to behave and all this plus actually rules for some things.
I don't say that humans can't create rules and laws in a country but those rules and laws cannot go against Quran.
Of course there must be a law for how deal with a drunk drivers, but that was only an example that all laws mustn't exist in Quran.
Quran stands for the good moral and be thankful to our Creator and to deal just with our fellow brothers and sisters.
What is the problem really, why you throw away Quran?
Is Quran only a beautiful book in your bookshelf????
Quran is showing a lifestyle and we live all in a society so i see no reason to abandon Quran but rather follow it to reach to the goal of our life here on earth.
Peace Majidah
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Salaamun alaikum,
MajidahBut therefore a messenger must turn up, because Quran says that we shall not only obey God but also his messenger.
Exactly right. Of course, most people would reject a new messenger, sadly.
NadiaFor believers I would think the stance of using the quran as a basic framework and expanding on the areas it doesn't give details on is fine...then you have the problem of what shall we do with different interpretations...hell's horses man...vote for which one is suitable, we can maybe keep the democrats happy then
I personally wouldnt get involved in a group where decisions are made democratically. It doesn't work. The best way is to carve out your own domain and rule singly. I await a person who's inspired to follow the book and I will line up behind him, inshaa Allah.
We need to maybe discuss on what kind of process we could have to choose an interpretation, because thats one amongst other things that many are unhappy about...should a 'messenger' figure do it, can we vote? Secondly, we have the 'how shall we choose the one who will step up to the plate', here some say we will know when it happens, and some want batman...I don't know the answers, but hopefully with some more discussion we might figure it out...hope springs eternal...
Nadia, the thing is, all these questions have been answered. The problem is, some of us simply reject the book. You may think im being harsh or judgemental but im simply looking at the book and looking at personalities and i see the people who claim to believe refusing to refer to Allah and his rasool. The book is so clear about methodology. The question if we submit or we do not.
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Idris They want the quran/reading to be a personal self-help book that has no part in a socio-economic order, this is a big mistake
LOL....deepak chopra even took his metaphysics, by his own admission, from Rumi sometimes. Rumi was an esoteric commentator of al-quraan!
Circle closes it seems. -
I swear i posted a reply to SM. Maybe the gremlins deleted it. But here it is again.
I disagree with you that Quran wasn't supposed to be used for run a country.
Thats alright. Thats the beauty of free will.
I don't say that humans can't create rules and laws in a country but those rules and laws cannot go against Quran.
That is what i have been saying all along.
Of course there must be a law for how deal with a drunk drivers, but that was only an example that all laws mustn't exist in Quran.
Well, perhaps you can show me from the Quran where it talks about speeding?
What is the problem really, why you throw away Quran?
Dont make assumptions SM. No one is throwing away anything.
Is Quran only a beautiful book in your bookshelf????
Its there along with the Torah and the Bible. Its just a book. Altered and changed like the other two.
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Salaam Jaxal,
Oh so was someone really deleted your post?
Poor Jaxal!!!!!
Well can you be so kind and tell me what it means to run a country?
I'm waiting for your reply
Peace Majidah
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Anybody else want to offer their views on this, I think the debate under this thread could have the potential to be much more beneficial than under previous threads
Just a small comment mate
I really believe that the Quran supports democracy, the word democracy just didn't exist then
what I mean, all the Quran teachings is nothing but democracy, I may start looking for a few verses to support what I mean
the short definition for democracy is freedom, right?
peace
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Salaam!!
What I'm finding in most topics or posts by people and I'm no exception is that when an opinion is posted or a concept its not backed up by quranic verses and therefore its just like any writing or hadith. If we truly believe Quran is the very word of God then why aren't we posting verses. I'm God willing going to try and do that most often.
Jaxal I gotta disagree with you on this one brother. Quran is everything from a spiritual book to a book telling us the ONLY laws on how to run a society. Obviously it does not have every single crime and punishment in the Quran and thats left to us to decide just like it doesn't state the exact dress code for women and its left upto the women to decide.
You may say but the Quran says its fully detailed. My understanding and plz someone do correct me is that its fully detailed as far as God is concerned. He's given us a map(Quran) and we've got to walk the actual path(our life). The answers are all in the Quran about everything you want to know I believe.....it may not be specific but it certainly will give you an answer to a dilemma or situation you come across. Anyone got anymore about this fully detailed part of the Quran as I've come across people saying Quran is not fully detailed as it doesn't tell you how to build a fridge for example. lol
PEACE
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Salaam!!
You may say but the Quran says its fully detailed. My understanding and plz someone do correct me is that its fully detailed as far as God is concerned. He's given us a map(Quran) and we've got to walk the actual path(our life). The answers are all in the Quran about everything you want to know I believe.....it may not be specific bu it certainly will give you an answer to a dilemma or situation you come across. Anyone got anymore about this fully detailed part of the Quran as I've coem across people saying Quran is not fully detailed as it doesn't tell you how to build a fridge for example.
PEACEWell said bro
and that is my philisophy since i was 13 years old
peace be with you
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5101 O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, God will forgive those for God is Oft- forgiving, Most Forbearing.
It was very easy for Allah Taala to write down each and every detail in Qur'an. Allah Taala is certainly not in shortage of words. The basic complete system is already in Qur'an where all the secondary laws could be established in the light of Qur'an.
Speeding and drunk driving is very easy issues to resolved with the Qur'anic message. Computer hacking is a crime because it is intrude privacy law which is very clearly defined in Qur'an not to walk in anybody's home without permission.
The people who believe Qur'an is altered changed book will never understand the message of Qur'an. Qur'an only opens up for the people who had faith in Allah Taala his His words.
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What I'm finding in most topics or posts by people and I'm no exception is that when an opinion is posted or a concept its not backed up by quranic verses and therefore its just like any writing or hadith. If we truly believe Quran is the very word of God then why aren't we posting verses. I'm God willing going to try and do that most often.
Jaxal I gotta disagree with you on this one brother. Quran is everything from a spiritual book to a book telling us the ONLY laws on how to run a society. Obviously it does not have every single crime and punishment in the Quran and thats left to us to decide just like it doesn't state the exact dress code for women and its left upto the women to decide.
You may say but the Quran says its fully detailed. My understanding and plz someone do correct me is that its fully detailed as far as God is concerned. He's given us a map(Quran) and we've got to walk the actual path(our life). The answers are all in the Quran about everything you want to know I believe.....it may not be specific bu it certainly will give you an answer to a dilemma or situation you come across. Anyone got anymore about this fully detailed part of the Quran as I've coem across people saying Quran is not fully detailed as it doesn't tell you how to build a fridge for example.
2pac, did weed help to achieve this epiphany? If it did, I may well reconsider my position on it (jk although LoteTree will misquote me on this, im sure)
Allah calls al-quraan 'tafseel kulli SHAI'IN'/detailling of every THING. Maybe whats outside al-quraan isn't a 'thing' to Allah? Allah only cares that we follow what the essence of humankind.
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Salaam 2-pac,
The best you have said so far
There isn't any wrong with Quran it's only wrong with ppl's minds, how they see things.
Peace Majidah