4:34 - Was This Discussed?

[Alen]

Salam.

434 in The Quran, people always ask me about this and i don't know how to tell them so that they will get it.

Anybody, any advice?

Salam.

[TheNabi]

Peace

Maybe YOU have to get it first before you can try explaining yourself to others.

Joe

[unknownuser]

Salam Alen,
I am working on a classical arabic translation of 434 (with referrences) for you and the board. It is just taking a little bit of time.
Salam,
Arnab

[unknownuser]

Salam,
Here it is, 434 de-coded?well sort of?.

I broke down each word and gave the first main three definitions of each root (with references). My Arabic grammar isn?t as good as I?d like it to be yet. So, if I tried to write out the verse I think I would just cause confusion (and possibly do more harm than good). If someone who is more familiar with Arabic could give us the verse using the classical Arabic definitions I would really be grateful.

(ra-jeem-lam) HW 380-381, LL Vol 3 pgs 209-213

1. to go on foot, walk
2. to comb or let down hair
3. to march

(qaf-waw-meem) HW 934-938, LL vol 8 pages 249-250

1. to stand still, stop in place
2. to get up
3. to stand up, stand erect

(ayn-lam-ya) HW 746-747, LL vol 5 pgs 426-433

1. to be high or elevated
2. on, upon, on to of, above over
3. superiority

(nun-seen-alif)HW 1125, LL Vol 8 pgs 39-40

1. to put off, postpone, delay, defer, procrastinate
2. to allow one time to repay a debt
3. long life longetivity

(Ba) HW 48, LL Vol 1 pg 178-181

1. in
2. at
3. on
4. with

(meem-alif) HW 1042, LL Vol 8 pg 270

1. what
2. that which

(fa-daad-lam) HW 840-842, LL vol 6 pages 195-197

1. to be in surplus, be in excess, be left over, remain
2. to excell, surpass (someone or something)
3. to be excellent, superior, exquisite, good, be better

Allah

(ba-ayn-daad) HW 82, LL vol 1 page 264

1. gnats or mosquitos
2. part, portion, some of, a little of, some of, one of

(ayn-lam-ya) HW 746-747, LL vol 5 pgs 426-433

1. to be high or elevated
2. on, upon, on to of, above over
3. superiority

(ba-ayn-daad) HW 82, LL vol 1 page 264

1. gnats or mosquitos
2. part, portion, some of, a little of, some of, one of

(waw) HW 1224, LL vol 8 pg 302

1. and
2. also
3. too

(Ba) HW 48, LL Vol 1 pg 178-181

1. in
2. at
3. on
4. with

(meem-alif) HW 1042, LL Vol 8 pg 270

1. what
2. that which

(nun-fa-qaf) HW 1158, LL Vol 8 pg 290

1. to sell something well or find a ready market for an item
2. to be used up, be spent, run out (stores, provisions, money) or exhausted
3. to die or perish (esp. of an animal)

(meem-nun) HW 1084-1086, LL vol 8 pg 278

1. who
2. some of, part of
3. like, in relation to
4. from

(meem-wa-lam) HW pg 1093-1094; LL vol 8 pg 280

1. whatever one possesses property, possessions, chattels, goods
2. wealth, affluence
3. fortune, estate, money, income, revenue, assets

(saad-lam-ha) HW 609-610, LL vol 4 pgs 438-439

1. to be good, right, proper, in order, righteous, pious, godly
2. to be well, thrive
3. to be usable, useful, practical, servicable, fitting, suitable

(qaf-nun-ta) HW 926, LL vol 7 pgs 94-95

1. to be obedient, submissive, humble (most commonly used to mean to God and not humans)

(ha-fa-za) HW 220-222, LL vol 2 pgs 237-239\

1. to preserve something
2. to protect, guard, defend someone
3. bear in mind, to observe, something, comply, be mindful, be heedful of something
4. to keep up, maintain, sustain, retain, uphold something

(lam-ghayn-ba) HW 1020, LL vol 7 pgs 191-192

1. exhaustion, lassitude, fatigue, weariness to the utmost degree
2. great pains, toil, trouble
3. stupidity and weakness

(Ba) HW 48, LL Vol 1 pg 178-181

1. in
2. at
3. on
4. with

(meem-alif) HW 1042, LL Vol 8 pg 270

1. what
2. that which

(ha-fa-za) HW 220-222, LL vol 2 pgs 237-239\

1. to preserve something
2. to protect, guard, defend someone
3. bear in mind, to observe, something, comply, be mindful, be heedful of something
4. to keep up, maintain, sustain, retain, uphold something

Allah

(lam-ta) HW page 1006, LL vol 7 pg 176-177

1. to bruise or bray or break up into small fragments, or particles (crush).
2. He (an ass) broke in pieces, or bruised, with his hoof, the pebbles over which he passed.
3. to pulverize

Note Under the root (lam-ta) we find this word in Lane?s
(alif-lam-lam-alif-ta)

1. a certain idol some of the lexicologists say, that it was a mass of rock worshipped as an idol (see Lane's for full details)

(khaf-fa) HW 288-289, LL vol 2 pages 405-407

1. to be light (of weight)
2. to be slight, insignificant
3. to become lighter, decrease in weight, lose weight

(nun-shiin-za) HW 1133, LL vol 8 pgs 49-50

1. to be elevated, be located high above
2. to rise (e.g. from a sitting place)
3. elevated place, high ground

(ayn-za-wa) HW no reference, LL vol 5 pg 373

1. a certain reptile, a small creeping thing (like the lizard in form but somewhat larger)
2. a large lizard
3. a certain reptile or creeping thing

(ha-jeem-ra) HW 1194, LL vol 8 pgs 133-135

1. to dissociate oneself, separate, part, secede, keep away (from), part company (with), stop speaking or talking to someone, stop associating or communicating with someone
2. to emigrate
3. to give up, renounce, forgo, avoid (something)

(fa-ya) HW 859-860, LL vol 6 pages 250-251

(preposition)

1. in
2. at
3. on
4. near
5. by

(daad-jeem-ayn) HW 626, LL vol 5 pgs 54-55

1. to lie on one's side
2. to lie down
3. recline

(daad-ra-ba) HW 629, LL vol 5 pgs 62-68

1. to beat, strike or hit (someone or something with something)
2. to shoot, fire at someone or something
3. shell, bombard something

(fa-alif) HW 809, LL vol 6 pages 105-107

1. (conjunction) then, and then
2. (conjunction) and so, thus, hence, therefore
3. (conjunction) but then, then however

(fa-alif-nun) under the root (fa-alif)

(with following suffix or noun in the accusative)
1.for
2. because

(ta-ayn-nun) HW 655, LL vol 5 pgs 140-141

1. to thrust or smote someone (not necessarily pierce them)
2. to pierce, transfix (someone/something with)
3. to stab someone

(fa-lam) HW 849-850, LL Vol 6 pgs 217-219

1. dent, notch, blunt (something e.g., a sword)
2. to break, flee, run away
3. to weaken, dampen or subdue

(ta-ba-ayn) HW 108-110, LL Vol 1 pages 230-233

1. to follow, succeed (someone, something), come after someone or something
2. to trail, track or go after (someone, something)
3. to walk behind someone

(ayn-lam-ya) HW 746-747, LL vol 5 pgs 426-433

1. to be high or elevated
2. on, upon, on to of, above over
3. superiority

(siin-ba-lam) HW 461, LL vol 5, 25-27

1. to assign something or the profit, or revenue, or
   usufruct, thereof, to be employed in the way,
   meaning or cause, of God, or of religion
2. to dedicate (someone or something) to charitable purposes or good works
3. road, path, way

(alif-nun) HW 37, LL vol 1 pg 140-148

1. that; in; if; in case; whether (conjunction with verb in a subject indicating an action not yet realized, an expected or possible event; with verb in the perf. Indicating that which has happened)
2. that (with following subject in the accusative or as a suffix and with nominal or copulative clause "since he" "because he&quot
3. however, yet (introducing a main clause)

Allah

(kaf-alif-nun) HW 943, LL Vol 7 pg 110

1. as if, as though, it is as if
2. a man strong in his make

(ayn-lam-ya) HW 746-747, LL vol 5 pgs 426-433

1. to be high or elevated
2. on, upon, on to of, above over
3. superiority

(kaf-ba-ra) HW 947-949, LL vol 7 pgs 113-115

1. to be or become great, (big,
   or large in body, or corporeal substance
2. to exceed or be older in years, or age (when said of a human being,
   often particularly signifying he attained to puberty)
3. big or great, in estimation or rank or dignity
4. great or momentous as in ?The affair, or case, was, or became,
   of great moment; it was, or became, momentous?

Salam,
Arnab

[arnoldyasin]

Peace,

Dear Arnab, Dzaraba, means at least 20 things. To move, give an example, to take a road, to have sex, to stop a tong from speaking and so on. It is much more then Lane's has told you. I suggest to study more Dictionaries when researching words. I believe the verse says to admonish her with examples. Beating her has no use and goes against the human rights of the Quran in total. When she had commited adultary, she must be judged in the court of law, not by you at home.

[unknownuser]

Salam,

Thank you, Arnold, for taking the time to look over the post.

I didn't really want to get involved in interpretting this verse because I don't think I've learned enough arabic or arabic grammar.

What I did in this post is present thethe first few (2-4 or so) definitions of the roots of the words in the verse as I found them. These definitions are by no means complete. I gave referrences to each word so that people could look up the words themselves to read more.

I didn't want to get into evolved meanings of the words. I wanted to examine the words with their original definition whether anyone thought they are "good" or "bad" as they are.
I wanted the "raw" root of the root so to speak.

And while we're on the subject of words in this verse

At this point I don?t think that the words rajul (ra-jeem-lam), and nisa (nun-siin-alif) are gender specific (indicative of man or woman) as we have traditionally believed.
I think they evolved to become gender specific.
If we translate rajul (ra-jeem-lam) as it is originally intended it would mean
?those on foot/walking/foot?
The word is usually translated as "man," but I think that it has a more general definition although it could apply since a rajul could be anyone going on foot including the one who is providing for the family traditionally, by hunting (on foot) but in contemporary society by going to work (on foot-well okay in a car but you get the point).
Or just more basically and to the point the one walking (without adding any of our "traditional" notions into it.

Since nisa is commonly translated as woman or wife but like rajul I think nisa has a more common definition. However, the nisa (nun-siin-alif) (the one delayed) could be the one who stays home with the children or is in some other way delayed in what ever way you can imagine, or delayed from doing what the ?one on foot or walking? is able to do (this could even include a person who is ill or a child).
One might argue that there are verses that refer to nisa with things like nursing or pregnancy. That is true. However if one is nursing a child or is pregnant they are in fact delayed or postponed from doing what they would be able to do were they not nursing or pregnant.

Think about it from a logical universal standpoint?there are times when men, for what ever reason, become disabled and unable to work. That doesn?t mean that the wife abandons the disabled man to find another husband.
Most likely the woman would go to work and the husband would stay home. The woman wouldthen become the rajul (those on foot). It is their responsibility to take care of the one delayed (in the case of this argument the man). Even in the time of Muhammad women worked and supported men at times.

The delayed could also extend to elderly, children and those who are ill.

That would make logical universal sense. Because the delayed would extend to anyone in your life (male or female) that you are caring for. This is especially true if you keep in mind that the Quran is a guide, YOUR guide for life. You can?t control what others do, so it would be absolutely of no use to you to be told what others are supposed to do for you

In the case that you are a woman and consider yourself ?nisa? that would mean that you are reading about what others are supposed to do for you. Because if you consider yourself to be a permanent ?nisa? 434, and many other verses, will never apply to you personally. And since we all know that we have no control over others only ourselves that doesn?t stay consistant with what the Quran teaches us.

However, if we think of nisa as it is defined in classical arabic then there will always be someone who is more ?delayed? than rajul ?one on foot.?
That would mean that at times when you are caring for others this verse would apply.

Even if someone doesn?t accept the classical arabic dictionary?s definitions and becomes dead set on the traditional definition for rajul we still have the Quran as a definer.

And the most clear definition of the word rajul comes from 2445.

(Transliteration) WaAllahu khalaqa kulla dabbatin min ma-in faminhum man yamshee AAala batnihi waminhum man yamshee AAala rijlayni waminhum man yamshee AAala arbaAAin yakhluqu Allahu ma yashao inna Allaha AAala kulli shay-in qadeerun

(Literal) And God created every/each walker/creeper/crawler from water, so from them who walks (moves) on its belly , and from them who walks on two feet, and from them who walks on four, God creates what He wills/wants , that truly God (is) on every thing capable/powerful .

(Free-Minds) And God created every moving creature from water. So some of them move on their bellies, and some walk on two legs, and some walk on four. God creates whatever He wills. God is capable of all things.

Also since Arabic evolved from Hebrew we can see that the definition of rajul in Hebrew is foot or one on foot or walking as well.

Another good example is that while we can define rajul as man instead of foot or those on foot we can not substitute the word foot for man because it would make no sense.

However translating the word rajul as ?those on foot? or foot instead of man fits in with

1. the hebrew definition of the word is identical to the arabic definition
2. the universal logical meaning that could work in all situations
3. Arabic dictionaries
4. and the definition that the Quran gives in 2445
   while translating rajul as foot or those on foot works in all instances translating rajul as man does not work in all instances.

To sum it up I would say that the words rajul and nisa are not gender specific.

With that in mind, it would be very interesting to see the verse translated using the original roots. But remember, to really understand a verse to where it makes sense we have to translate the verses surrounding it as well (and, eventually, the whole Quran).

Lets try not to get stuck by translating one verse using the original root and then proclaiming it doesn't make sense because it doesn't fit with the verse before it or after it that we didn't translate.

I believe that If we translate all the verses according to their root meaning, the Quran will make sense in a universal way.

Furthermore, I think that, to truly understand the arabic we must understand the foundation of the words that evolved from Aramaic, Hebrew, and Ancient Hebrew (all of which I am studying as well as arabic). But that may be for another thread.

Thoughts on this are appreciated and respected.

Salam,
Arnab