What would you do in the absence of any scripture?
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Is belief in anything neccessary. Do we even need to believe in the God, the messengers, angels etc.? Canwe get by and succeed with just good deeds, or do we need to believe in something as well?
I think the confusion here, is that you're mixing some things together. Let me see if I can explain this, you believe you can do good deeds without scripture, yes you can! (This is the map thing Wakas is talking about) But why does it then have to mean that no scripture = no GOD? shock Without scripture, is there no evidence of the Creator in the world? How does that work?All in all, Abraham did not reach where he did without God's guidance. That is where many of us fail to understand and give ourselves or other humans or books the credit. Thinking this is because of a knowledge or skill I gained. (Example - 1832-43) Without belief in God, "good deeds" are just swept away.
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Hi Natu,
Is belief in anything neccessary. Do we even need to believe in the God, the messengers, angels etc.? Canwe get by and succeed with just good deeds, or do we need to believe in something as well?
We are capable of living righteously without belief in God and scriptures, becoz we all have Allah's spirit in us. But there also exsists a counterforce 'the evil' which will tempt mankind to sin. Now, out of the good and bad, its man's free will to decide what to do. And faith in God just makes it easier for man to be righteous and counter evil.
God exsists no matter man believes or not. And like Zenje said, When man achieves success and wisdom etc, he is more likely to credit himself and his skills(which apparently are from God too)for all of it, and grow arrogant, if he doesnt understand and acknowledge God's role in man's success and all of it. So, if man acknowledges God's presence, he is more likely to stay in truth.
Scriptures are not the only signs of God. Like u mentioned even Adam was aware of God's presence. The fact is simple. We can see God's sign everywhere. Scriptures confirm the truth to those who have realised the truth by themselves and reveals the truth to those who have not realised the truth by themselves. So, scriptures are a confirmation of the truth.
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Ok jax, i'll pm you in order not to pollute the thread! lol
Is it that dirty!!!???
Can I hear it too? -)Just joking -)
Regards,
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Peace to the people, praise to the provider.
Thanks for the replies guys! Sorry for not turning up for a while, GW now I'll be frequenting the forum the way I used to a few months back. For simplicity, I'll reply to everyone separately.
Peace Savagae_Carrot
So if you believe that lying is bad, you would essentially try to go through with not lying
Perhaps I didn't make the distinction very clear. What I was intending to mean was that, following what natural logic would say alone,instead of following a belief. Say for example, you may have a belief in not eating spinach, but you use logic and not eat eat simply because you don't like the taste. You don't have to have a belief in the logic, it is just natural, but then logic may tell you that spinach is good for the body, so you eat it, but thats still not because of a belief, your doing it for an "earthly reason", so to say.
Peace Wakas
I agree with everything you said, my only question is, would you say that belief in the messengers, angels and books as prescribed in the reading are just buckets to help you pick up and carry good deeds in, and that without scripture, people could just pick up good deeds and carry them in their hands? In other words, would you agree that belief in messengers, angels etc. aren't there just as things to do to get into heaven, or arethey just functional to motvate/encourage/ease the commiting of good deeds. My concern is what would happen to people who don't believe in these things, but like Abraham they deduced that there is one God, and the work righteousness to their full capacity, but then again, thats not our job to worry about is it?!
Peace Zenje
I think the confusion here, is that you're mixing some things together. Let me see if I can explain this, you believe you can do good deeds without scripture, yes you can! Smile (This is the map thing Wakas is talking about) But why does it then have to mean that no scripture = no GOD? Shocked Without scripture, is there no evidence of the Creator in the world? How does that work?
All in all, Abraham did not reach where he did without God's guidance. That is where many of us fail to understand and give ourselves or other humans or books the credit. Thinking this is because of a knowledge or skill I gained. (Example - 1832-43) Without belief in God, "good deeds" are just swept away.
No no, I didn't mean that without scripture there is no God lol, I mean beliefs that come from the scripture alone, things like belief in angels etc.
Peace peacefulmuslim
True say.
Peace Zenje
Ho ya ya Natu gowna be on da line agin bwa (pleased that you actually remebered my first signature Zenj!).
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Peace Natu,
Perhaps I didn't make the distinction very clear. What I was intending to mean was that, following what natural logic would say alone,instead of following a belief
Sorry for any misunderstanding on my part )
It's true that not having the reading, you might not have realised all the concepts present therein, and an understanding or getting to a simple concept would be a huge accomplishment, maybe one of the few one might have in their lifetimes. Thus, having the reading and understanding it, would be a faster mental evolution in one's lifetime...that leads us back to the map thingy and the fact that the reading is a guidance and a reminder. Like when we are at school, we read about many concepts that might have taken a person not going through the system, an entire lifetime to get to by themselves (I'm being overly generous here)...
So I suppose, in the end, one is judged by what guidance they got in their lifetimes and what they did with it...
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There are two problems with the map analogy in my view. First it assumes that life is about journeying from "A to B".
How about life as an exploration of all the routes on a map? For example some may travel on the highway and on the country lane but choose to journey on the country lane because it gives them a beautiful view of the "landscape"? If you just stuck to the highway then perhaps you will never realise the beauty of the "countryside"?
Secondly following a map is tracing someone's else's footsteps and I am sure it will get you from A to B without much problem perhaps. But just by tracing steps you don't learn anything "new" about the complexity of life or the nature of God or the Truth about the world. It is when you strike out on your own without a map then there is a possibility of bringing some "new" understanding to yourself and to the world. So perhaps we need to venture out on our own into the wilderness for forty days and nights or climb our own mount Sinai or seek the cave of
mount Hira or find our own bo tree?Perhaps "striking out on our own" is not for everyone. It is only for the brave perhaps, only those are courageous enough to take such an undertaking...
Regards,
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HI Natu,
No no, I didn't mean that without scripture there is no God lol, I mean beliefs that come from the scripture alone, things like belief in angels etc.
Scriptures are divine messages confirming and revealing the truth. Yeah, We might not have understood or guessed out the exsistence of angels etc. without scriptures mentioning it, nor would we have guessed out how adam erred by listening to satan etc. These are details that we could propably exsist without, but knowing them, helps us to understand God's system better and answers some of those Questions we all have. And when man didnt understand God's system, he also got confused and lost with the mysteries of natural forces such as fire, storm, rain and thunder etc..
I agree with Lotetree on the map analogy. I dont think Scriptures are more like a map. I think they are more like a set of guidelines that helps man through his journey(life) on earth, so that every man can fulfill his purpose. The begining of life being the start point and the end point being death. And the journey is man's own. Every man has his own journey and own destination. With guidance, it gets easier to stay in the right path, and to reach one's destination (fullfillment of our purpose).
Peace!
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There are two problems with the map analogy in my view. First it assumes that life is about journeying from "A to B".
The map is just an example. Just as you could use a manual for a complex mechanical equipment as an example. You could most probably assemble or fix it without it, but it does make it a hell of a lot easier using the manual.Now these examples a too simplistic, and you really can't compare life and quran to journey and map, or TV and manual for that matter. Remember God's message gives mucho flexibility to your own individual way and pace. So yes, you can take the highway, back roads and streets with 2000 stop lights, it's all up to you. ) Just dont run over any old ladies (you dont get any points for that wink )
Journey from A-B could be birth to death... or was that B-D? ?
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I think that w/o scripture, I would believe in God, the messengers, the afterlife, and most of the moral values in the quran. I would probably not eat pork as I try to eat cleanly anyway. I would probably stay chaste as I decided to before I knew anything about Islam. I probably would not dress modestly, since I really like fashion. However, I probably would begin to if I had kids. I would not pray ritually since I would have no reason to do so, though I would make dua often. I do think that most elements of Islam are intuitive to people who think.
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Peace.
Putting the topic in a nutshell...
What are everyones views as to whether "beliefs" (e.g. belief in all the messengers) are keys to salvation alongwith good deeds, or are they functional concepts designed to promote/encourage good deeds, thereby being there onlyto aid success in commiting good deeds and being admitted into heaven?
(Just to estructure the debate, if nobody minds.)
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Just as you could use a manual for a complex mechanical equipment as an example. You could most probably assemble or fix it without it, but it does make it a hell of a lot easier using the manual.
Perhaps above is an incorrect analogy. Map show where things are and how to get there. A manual tells you how to put things together. Yes, putting things together is hard without the instructions.
Map on the other hand shows you where the hills and valleys are. But how you decide to travel to these destinations is completely up to you. You could take the route that map shows you or you could strike out on your own and find your own route and in the process of doing so "discover" a new "destination" or perhaps or a better route that is suited to you...
Regards,
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Hi Natu,
Putting the topic in a nutshell...
What are everyones views as to whether "beliefs" (e.g. belief in all the messengers) are keys to salvation alongwith good deeds, or are they functional concepts designed to promote/encourage good deeds, thereby being there onlyto aid success in commiting good deeds and being admitted into heaven?
(Just to estructure the debate, if nobody minds.)I think its good deeds that will be rewarded and will admit one to heaven.
Belief in messengers(of the past) will also help us understand the importance of 'righteousness' to Allah, coz Messengers were good people who lived their life in the best standards. But, I dont think, mere belief in messengers will take us to heaven.
Quran also talks of the belief in messenger of then (Prophet Mohammed). So that The people who believed in him, could see and learn from his example and also accept the divine message and guidance given to prophet Mohammed.
For us now, The messengers of the past were good people blessed with a divine duty to convey divine message to the people. -
removed to another thread...
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peace Natu,
The difference you speak of is rooted in the difference between 'muslim' & 'mumin' in my opinion.
To me, this is still one of the most powerful realisations I have had since returning to al-quran. A study of this specific aspect should be a must for every Muslim in the world, and I cannot over-emphasise that enough.
Once this concept is appreciated, I truly believe it leads to a revolution of thought, as it did to me.
Here is a reasonable article on it
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/mumin.htmI personally regard the above article as one of the most important on free-minds.
Wakas
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Map on the other hand shows you where the hills and valleys are. But how you decide to travel to these destinations is completely up to you. You could take the route that map shows you or you could strike out on your own and find your own route and in the process of doing so "discover" a new "destination" or perhaps or a better route that is suited to you...
But thats just it, the map does show you everything. It doesn't show you a specific route. It gives all the possible routes and even shows where there are no roads. I'm not talking about a map that with a line and x marks the spot. I'm talking about a regular map. You can figure out where you are, where you want to go and a variety of ways to get there.Peace
