To Andya Primanda and all believers in evolution
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Peace Idmkhizar,
Your question is a red herring.
Can you provide evidence of a LIVING transitional form between humans and apes?
They're all extinct, bro. But we do have the bones to prove it.
Now here's a question for you
Why are we so similar, in anatomy, to apes? Is it God's sense of humor? Coincidence?Peace,
Tay -
Peace Idmkhizar,
Your question is a red herring.
Can you provide evidence of a LIVING transitional form between humans and apes?
They're all extinct, bro. But we do have the bones to prove it.
Now here's a question for you
Why are we so similar, in anatomy, to apes? Is it God's sense of humor? Coincidence?Peace,
TayKhi- Salam. See! What a silly excuse that theyr all extinct. Not one transitional form survived of the countless continium which had to be there?? This aint very logical. By the way i dont deny evolution, i deny the blind random chance evolution and that man evolved from ape like creatures. I certainly believe in self assembly of molecules and thats most probably how the universe was formed and that everything was planned and calculated aforetime. In other words the information of all ceratures plants clouds stars planets etc was their in this universe before their creation, then they assembled themselves in accordance with GOD's Plan. As to why our anatomy is so similar to apes please consider these verses
You have known about those among you who desecrated the Sabbath. We said to them, "Be you apes."
Say, "Let me tell you who are worse in the sight of GOD those who are condemned by GOD after incurring His wrath until He made them monkeys and pigs, and the idol worshipers. These are far worse, and farther from the right path."
GOD Bless! -
Peace,
As to why our anatomy is so similar to apes please consider these verses
You have known about those among you who desecrated the Sabbath. We said to them, "Be you apes."
Say, "Let me tell you who are worse in the sight of GOD those who are condemned by GOD after incurring His wrath until He made them monkeys and pigs, and the idol worshipers. These are far worse, and farther from the right path."
GOD Bless!I don't get it, are you saying that apes and pigs came after humans?!? I mean seriously, if you believe in God and everything being designed by Him, what is the problem with evolution?!?
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Peace,
As to why our anatomy is so similar to apes please consider these verses
You have known about those among you who desecrated the Sabbath. We said to them, "Be you apes."
Say, "Let me tell you who are worse in the sight of GOD those who are condemned by GOD after incurring His wrath until He made them monkeys and pigs, and the idol worshipers. These are far worse, and farther from the right path."
GOD Bless!I don't get it, are you saying that apes and pigs came after humans?!? I mean seriously, if you believe in God and everything being designed by Him, what is the problem with evolution?!?
Khi- Yes apes and swine must have come after humans. This makes much more sense to me since both are also serious nuisance makers. 2ndly theres no problem with intelligent evolution which knows where its going BUT THERES A BIG PROBLEM WITH BLIND RANDOM CHANCE EVOLUTION because the latter disregards GOD completely and mocks His Wisdom and Creative Power on top of that. GOD Bless!
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Khi- Yes apes and swine must have come after humans. This makes much more sense to me since both are also serious nuisance makers.
So your reasoning is based on degrees of nuisance?!? lol
2ndly theres no problem with intelligent evolution which knows where its going BUT THERES A BIG PROBLEM WITH BLIND RANDOM CHANCE EVOLUTION because the latter disregards GOD completely and mocks His Wisdom and Creative Power on top of that. GOD Bless!
Just because some people use evolution to disprove God doesn't mean it's incorrect...if you believe God designed everything and God is in full control, then evolution happened according to it's purpose, whether some want to call it random or some want to call it divinely ordained thats up to them. They also call the universe coming together chance...so whats the big deal? They can say what they want, doesn't make it true now do it?
Everything is controlled and happens in a controlled manner, according to processes...not magic. Evolution is one such process that is controlled though it might seem like random chance, just like the bus that ran over aunt jessie...my apologies to anyone having an aunt jessie, may God give her a long and prosperous life with no buses in sight, though that just might be why she was run over...
Do you think that God didn't know what He was creating, does He not know everything that happens?!? Is He not in full control?!? Did we just beam down to earth from some fetal repository?!?
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Peace Idmkhizar,
You stated
See! What a silly excuse that theyr all extinct. Not one transitional form survived of the countless continium which had to be there?? This aint very logical.
No offense, bro, but it seems you haven't really grasped the concept which you're arguing. Pre-human species that co-existed with humans were competing for the same resources. When this happens in nature, it is very rare for coexistence to be maintained. One species usually outperforms the other, hence driving them into extinction.
If you need evidence of this, I suggest researching Australian Tigers and the current issues with Florida Alligators for starters.
By the way i dont deny evolution,
OK
i deny the blind random chance evolution
me too )
and that man evolved from ape like creatures
OK
As to why our anatomy is so similar to apes please consider these verses
You have known about those among you who desecrated the Sabbath. We said to them, "Be you apes."
Say, "Let me tell you who are worse in the sight of GOD those who are condemned by GOD after incurring His wrath until He made them monkeys and pigs, and the idol worshipers. These are far worse, and farther from the right path."Ape is a generic term. Are you talking about gorillas, chimps, or orangoutangs? What species of primate are you sugeesting?
Also, the mention of "sabbath" tells us that this transformation must have happened after the establishment of Moses' messengership. Moses' birth is estimated at 1272 bc. Are you suggesting that apes have only been on this planet for 3277 years?
Peace,
Tay -
Just because some people use evolution to disprove God doesn't mean it's incorrect...if you believe God designed everything and God is in full control, then evolution happened according to it's purpose, whether some want to call it random or some want to call it divinely ordained thats up to them. They also call the universe coming together chance...so whats the big deal? They can say what they want, doesn't make it true now do it?
Everything is controlled and happens in a controlled manner, according to processes...not magic.
Khi- Salam. I know this and never denied this. But the procsses are NOT random or blind chance. Thats all i said
Evolution is one such process that is controlled though it might seem like random chance,
Khi- It doesnt seem like that to me at all. It an only seem like that to the ignorant.
just like the bus that ran over aunt jessie...my apologies to anyone having an aunt jessie, may God give her a long and prosperous life with no buses in sight, though that just might be why she was run over...
Khi- GOD controls life and death. Again thats not blind chance.
Do you think that God didn't know what He was creating, does He not know everything that happens?!? Is He not in full control?!? Did we just beam down to earth from some fetal repository?!?
Khi- Thats exactly what im saying. Hence i believe in INTELLIGENT evolution and not blind chance evolution. GOD Bless!
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No offense, bro, but it seems you haven't really grasped the concept which you're arguing. Pre-human species that co-existed with humans were competing for the same resources. When this happens in nature, it is very rare for coexistence to be maintained. One species usually outperforms the other, hence driving them into extinction.
Khi- Salam. Not all. Many adapt to their enviroment like we still have apes today dont we?
If you need evidence of this, I suggest researching Australian Tigers and the current issues with Florida Alligators for starters.
Khi- I know this happens but not to all. Otherwise there would be no more apes on the planet.
me too
Khi- Thats good. However it would then be strange for you to say that GOD created us through monkeys. This degrades GOD giving the implication that He had to practice before bringing out perfection.
pe is a generic term. Are you talking about gorillas, chimps, or orangoutangs? What species of primate are you sugeesting?
Khi- Apes in general. See my reply below now.
Also, the mention of "sabbath" tells us that this transformation must have happened after the establishment of Moses' messengership. Moses' birth is estimated at 1272 bc. Are you suggesting that apes have only been on this planet for 3277 years?
Peace,
TayKhi- This verse in the Quran is just one example of humans in a particular time being transformed to apes. Quran never says that it didnt happen before to any people. I believe it did and GOD turned many disobedient peoples to different types/species of apes and monkeys. GOD Bless!
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Peace,
Khi- Salam. I know this and never denied this. But the procsses are NOT random or blind chance. Thats all i said
All the threads that have been started by you on this topic previously, kinda baffled me with all this opposition to fossil evidence etc that I was mistaken, so it's good to know that you believe in evolution (let's not give it a label otherwise it seems that you are against evolution ).
Khi- It doesnt seem like that to me at all. It an only seem like that to the ignorant.
Yes, it depends on what one believes I suppose.
Khi- GOD controls life and death. Again thats not blind chance.
Yes, thus the example.
Khi- Thats exactly what im saying. Hence i believe in INTELLIGENT evolution and not blind chance evolution. GOD Bless!
Let's just say we all believe in evolution before the downward spiral starts again
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Salam savagecarrot,
All the threads that have been started by you on this topic previously, kinda baffled me with all this opposition to fossil evidence etc that I was mistaken, so it's good to know that you believe in evolution (let's not give it a label otherwise it seems that you are against evolution ).
Khi- Its very important to give a label as to which evolution for thats what decides whether we believe in GOD or irrationally and stubbornly submit ourselves to blind and random chance. Hence my use of the term INTELLIGENT evolution. This is indeed a marvellous process and would glorify GOD more than to say that He just put in the parts piece by piece. What is done that everything was calculated aforehand and like a miracle in itself the parts SELF-ASSEMBLED in the right way. HAd the explosion of the big bang only taken slightly less or more time the whole universe would be a chaotic mess of EVER FARTHER scattering radiation.
Yes, it depends on what one believes I suppose.
Khi- Id say it believes on rational thought in contrast to the stubborn and WILFUL rejection of GOD.
Yes, thus the example.
Khi- Ok.
Let's just say we all believe in evolution before the downward spiral starts again )
Khi- No, defining which evolution is very important for the above mentioned reasons. GOD Bless!
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Peace Idmkhizar,
Not all. Many adapt to their enviroment like we still have apes today dont we? I know this happens but not to all. Otherwise there would be no more apes on the planet.
Bro, the point is twofold, which you're sidestepping. First, humans and apes do not compete for the same food. Humans and pre-human species did compete for the same food, ie, herd animals. Pre-humans had "base camps" similar to human villages, hence they needed sites close to water, which "we" dominated.
A second point is that today we are actually competing for the same land as the modenr ape, and consequently, they are constantly decreasing in numbers, which further illustrates my point.
it would then be strange for you to say that GOD created us through monkeys. This degrades GOD giving the implication that He had to practice before bringing out perfection.
Not at all. That is your projection stemming from your opinion. Here's my opinion First, humans are not perfect. Second, apes were only one step in the evolutionary process, which started from "dust". Third, pre-human species were alive and well, roaming the Earth, causing chaos and bloodshed due to their high intelligence but still animal instincts. It was soon after that God blessed this creature with "soul" and free-will and the ability to gain knowledge.
See 230
And your Lord said to the Angels ?I am placing a successor on earth.? They said ?Would You place in it he who would corrupt in it, and spill blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You?? He said ?I know what you do not know.?How did the "angels" know man would spill blood and cause corruption if a species didn't already exist that was acting savagely?
Think about that bro.
Quran never says that it didnt happen before to any people.
The Qur'an also never says that the moon was made out of cheese. We should really stick with what the Qur'an does say.
I believe it did and GOD turned many disobedient peoples to different types/species of apes and monkeys.
And of course, you're free to believe whatever you want. But I disagree based on what is verifiable.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Idm,
This is indeed a marvellous process and would glorify GOD more than to say that He just put in the parts piece by piece. What is done that everything was calculated aforehand and like a miracle in itself the parts SELF-ASSEMBLED in the right way.
Khi- Thats good. However it would then be strange for you to say that GOD created us through monkeys. This degrades GOD giving the implication that He had to practice before bringing out perfection.
Er, are you saying that man did NOT evolve from apes? That he self-assembled somehow?!?
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Bro, the point is twofold, which you're sidestepping. First, humans and apes do not compete for the same food. Humans and pre-human species did compete for the same food, ie, herd animals. Pre-humans had "base camps" similar to human villages, hence they needed sites close to water, which "we" dominated.
Khi- Salam. Again i must say that there must have at least some species leftover. Moreover theres no definitive prove in the fossil record for any such claimed pre "humans". The fossil record is incomplete and the bones which are found every now and then are DELIBERATELY MANIPULATED AND ADJUSTED TO SUIT THE THEORY. There are many examples like that eg the piltdown man which has been shown to be a fraud and a deliberate deception. In 1999 some Chinese guy glued together some bones of a supposed transition btw birds and reptiles which was shown on national geographic as evidence for macro evolution. So what do these deliberate manipulations tell us? That the "scientists" in favour of this evolution are working for an agenda.
A second point is that today we are actually competing for the same land as the modenr ape, and consequently, they are constantly decreasing in numbers, which further illustrates my point.
Khi- Humans have always caused much chaos in the past as well as now. But no they wont since there are nature protectors(eg WWF) who are after such people and preserving the species as much as they can. Such good people were also there in the past. Also i dont believe that animals compete with each other to make others extinct. It is ONLY man who does that and all those extinct animals whose fossil remains we find are the cause of men, not other animals. Thats because man has a soul and can be good or evil. To claim otherwise would be degrading to GOD since it would mean that GOD's creation is imperfect which the Quran denies.
Not at all. That is your projection stemming from your opinion. Here's my opinion First, humans are not perfect.
Khi- Im not talking abt personality and character. Im talking about their physical design
Second, apes were only one step in the evolutionary process, which started from "dust". Third, pre-human species were alive and well, roaming the Earth, causing chaos and bloodshed due to their high intelligence but still animal instincts. It was soon after that God blessed this creature with "soul" and free-will and the ability to gain knowledge.
Khi- As i said animals before man could NOT have been causing chaos. This is exactly the point. Man brought the chaos and bloodshed because of his soul. Animals followed GOD's Law as they were submissive. It was man who became rebellious.
See 230
And your Lord said to the Angels ?I am placing a successor on earth.? They said ?Would You place in it he who would corrupt in it, and spill blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You?? He said ?I know what you do not know.?Khi- EXACTLY and the corruptor WAS ONE POSESSING A SOUL. This can be interpreted as Adam or Satan. Both have souls. RK takes up the latter.
How did the "angels" know man would spill blood and cause corruption if a species didn't already exist that was acting savagely?
Think about that bro.
Khi- Thats exactly why RK interpretes this verse in favour of Satan who is responsible for all this chaos. The angels knew that fellow. This view is also confirmed mathematically(see RK's app. no. 2, point no. 4).
The Qur'an also never says that the moon was made out of cheese. We should really stick with what the Qur'an does say.
Khi- The Quran has provided us with an example and that should be sufficient for our further inferrence.
And of course, you're free to believe whatever you want. But I disagree based on what is verifiable.
Peace,
TayKhi- As ive states above much of the fossil stuff is fraud deliberately put in a way to degrade GOD and therefore make His Existence obsolete. GOD Bless!
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Peace Idmkhizar,
Again i must say that there must have at least some species leftover.
You saying this does not make it true. This is why I gave you examples to research so that the truth might become apparent. When 2 species of animals compete for the same resource, and that resource becomes limited, there is usually a winner and loser. Another example of this is the African wild dog. It is almost completely wiped out because of the success of lions and hyenas in the region. Please look into these things before forming your opinion.
Moreover theres no definitive prove in the fossil record for any such claimed pre "humans". The fossil record is incomplete and the bones which are found every now and then are DELIBERATELY MANIPULATED AND ADJUSTED TO SUIT THE THEORY. There are many examples like that eg the piltdown man which has been shown to be a fraud and a deliberate deception. In 1999 some Chinese guy glued together some bones of a supposed transition btw birds and reptiles which was shown on national geographic as evidence for macro evolution.
Bro, please don't make me waste time plucking the evidence out for you. Just because there are a few frauds does not handicap the surplus of evidence.
So what do these deliberate manipulations tell us? That the "scientists" in favour of this evolution are working for an agenda.
It tells me that scientists are human like the rest of us. How can you condemn an entire philosophy because of the actions of few? Unless you can prove that every piece of fossil evidence is a fraud, then you're really overgeneralizing. Heck, I would even settle for 10 examples of this type of fraud. Even 5.
I dont believe that animals compete with each other to make others extinct.
Are you sure? Have you looked into the matter, or is this opinion baseless?
It is ONLY man who does that and all those extinct animals whose fossil remains we find are the cause of men, not other animals.
It's good to have your beliefs, bro, but in matters such as these, it's better to bring evidence to back up such sweeping claims.
To claim otherwise would be degrading to GOD since it would mean that GOD's creation is imperfect which the Quran denies.
You keep saying this, but you've never defined what perfect is. Do you deny the existence of dinosaurs? If not, then how is it perfect that they were completely wiped out before humans ever existed? This is your argument, isn't it, that it wasn't until free-willed humans that animals went extinct?
Perhaps perfection is in the fact that the Earth is ever-changing. Countless ice-ages and meteor showers and mega-volcanic eruptions attest to this.
Im not talking abt personality and character. Im talking about their physical design
How is the physical design of the human perfect? My idea of a perfect physical design would be the ability to fly like a peregrine falcon, run like a cheetah, swim like a dolphin, and have the strength of an elephant. What is yours? What is the Qur'anic viewpoint on this? How is a human more perfect physically than, let's say, a gorilla?
As i said animals before man could NOT have been causing chaos.
Did you know chimpanzees murder each other, for no adaptive purpose? Did you know they've been known to snatch up human baby's and eat them? Did you know dodo birds break into each other's nests and completely destroy them, so that they can have an advantage in finding a mate? Did you know male elphants kill rhinos when there are no females around during their musting period. How do you define chaotic?
EXACTLY and the corruptor WAS ONE POSESSING A SOUL. This can be interpreted as Adam or Satan. Both have souls.
Dude, if man did not exist before God mentioned this to the "angels", then how exactly, did the angels know the characteristics that would come in the future?? Can "angels" tell the future?
Thats exactly why RK interpretes this verse in favour of Satan who is responsible for all this chaos. The angels knew that fellow.
But that fellow did not rebel until AFTER the existence of man. So did the "angels" know satan would rebel? Or did he have a history of rebellion? Seems to me you're giving "angels" divine attributes.
The Quran has provided us with an example and that should be sufficient for our further inferrence.
The Qur'an speaks of those who violated the sabbath. You speaking of others not mentioned in the Qur'an is unsupported and thus conjectural.
As ive states above much of the fossil stuff is fraud deliberately put in a way to degrade GOD and therefore make His Existence obsolete
And as I stated, you're free to believe whatever you want, even if you believe something as sweeping and generalizing and presumptive as your above statement, and even without evidence to support your beliefs. That's one of God's many gifts.
Peace,
Tay -
Khi- Thats good. However it would then be strange for you to say that GOD created us through monkeys. This degrades GOD giving the implication that He had to practice before bringing out perfection.
Peace,
NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.
Did you ever consider that God covered up his tracks?????
Made it impossible for people to establish as an undeniable FACT that he does indeed exist?
Isn't this life supposed to be a test? A test of faith?
So why would God reveal the answers during the test?
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Salam,
Can you provide evidence of a LIVING transitional form between humans and apes? If you cannot then this whole argument is nothing but conjecture or do you mean to say an ape suddenly jumped to a human i.e. punctuated equillibrium? If thts the case then it obviously doesnt make sense since it requires additional information which cannot just come out of thin air. GOD Bless!Not again...
Obviously you still don't understand evolution, and you still try to stir up controversy where it doesn't exist. Human evolution doesn't imply the existence of a living transitional form today, it implies the existence of transitional forms in the past. We have found fossils of ancient humans. I have shown you the evidence. But as you have told me long ago, you refuse to even study the fossils so I cannot convince you, your mind is closed.
By the way, the fossils found so far doesn't show a sudden change. Australopithecus is similar from humans from the waist down, while from the waist up it's a typical ape. Homo erectus is human from the neck down, but the erectus head has a lot of primitive features and small brain. Finally we have Neanderthals and modern humans.
I thought you're tired of debating me about this... why pick it up again? It's obvious that you won't change your mind, so why bother? It's not that I'm preaching evolution or anything here. I wonder if it's worth my time and resources trying to convince someone with a closed mind.
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Salam khizar,
Its a theory! its a very educated and accurate "guess" based on actual evidence found on this planet. If there was no evidence of evolution, then there is no evidence that evolution may even have existed. But there is. a lot of it. there is no way you can deny it.
and if you only oppose evolution because you think Islam does, then remember that it doesnt. This world was created by God himself. This world is a living example of Him and His system. dont forget that.
and about the theory of evolution itself. its the best we've got. until we find something better. if the theory is flawed (or if you think it is), then you dont have to agree. But whatever it is, i think its pretty damn close to the truth.