The nature of inspiration - the "voice" of the God
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Peace be upon you Lote Tree,
So now the "Pious Scribes" concocted the Quran? There was no Prophet at all? What are you saying? Please elaborate!
(8013-14) In honoured written pages/sheets. Raised, purified. By scribes'/writers' hands.
Yes, there was and always will be prophets, men who are inspired by the God and intuit the Divine Truths. These truths are written down by mens hands to be delivered to others.
I still don't understand - was the inspiration came from a single person and written by many hands? or many hands had the inspiration and many hands written it down?
Id o not take the word "quran" to be the title of any book, but if you are referring to this book, then I am not sure how many hands were involved
(8013-14) In honoured written pages/sheets. Raised, purified. By scribes'/writers' hands.
Why are you not sure? since you have quoted the verse above? It implies written by many hands does it not? so what there is not to be sure about?
I was not present, and no one else here was either so none of us has that answer.
I was not present when the dinosoaurs roamed the Earth, and yet we have their fossile records. I was not there when Hindenburgh caught fire and we have historical details. We have to work with all the things we have to find the truth be it be archeological scraps or some fossil dug up in a bog...Kyle we owe to ourselves to know the truth. We can't hide from the difficult questions, we must tackle them head on. By saying Muhammad is a descripton and not a name is not doing much, it is hiding from the truth...
Regards,
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Peace be upon you Lote Tree,
I still don't understand - was the inspiration came from a single person and written by many hands? or many hands had the inspiration and many hands written it down?
I can only assume that the inspiration came to a single person and was later written by many (which would explain the slight difference in versions). We can verify even today that several people are still writing it down.
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Id o not take the word "quran" to be the title of any book, but if you are referring to this book, then I am not sure how many hands were involved(8013-14) In honoured written pages/sheets. Raised, purified. By scribes'/writers' hands.
Why are you not sure? since you have quoted the verse above? It implies written by many hands does it not? so what there is not to be sure about?
Well, reading a book does not give me certainty, it only gives me a direction to research. I dont take it as truth just because someone wrote it. Verification is the only way to certainty. That being said, I do verify today that several hands continue to write this message.
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I was not present, and no one else here was either so none of us has that answer.I was not present when the dinosoaurs roamed the Earth, and yet we have their fossile records.
Yes, objective evidence (Seeing vs hearing)
I was not there when Hindenburgh caught fire and we have historical details.
I dont know much about that, but if there is observable evidence then good, if just word of mouth, no good.
We have to work with all the things we have to find the truth be it be archeological scraps or some fossil dug up in a bog...Kyle we owe to ourselves to know the truth. We can't hide from the difficult questions, we must tackle them head on. By saying Muhammad is a descripton and not a name is not doing much, it is hiding from the truth...
You are free to believe that, but I must challenge that every time because there is no evidence to support that. Becoming "muhammadun" serves as a far better guide than blindly believing in someones proper name. We might as well believe in Santa Claus to avoid "hiding from the truth".
I understand this is difficult for some, but this is how things have been done since ancient times, symbolism. Natural events being personified into stories.
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
My name is Ahmed
would that be a description not my name?
I have something I want you to read
(616) ...and an announcer of good news with a messenger (that) comes from after me, his name (is) Ahmad ."
So is it "muhammadun" or is it "ahmad"? And is it a name or a description?
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
My name is Ahmed
would that be a description not my name?
In this context it would be your name. But when we are dealing with a message of behavior shaping, then the name of a person becomes meaningless. What guidance do we get from knowing the prophets proper name? So we can idolize him and do pilgrimmage to his grave?
But you are free to believe as you wish, there is no compulsion.
ok bro I read your other comment and I would say the above comment is your last to me as you stated in another thread
well if the context means my name, then the context of the Quran means Mohammad was a name for a person that person is a prophet and even one sura called "Mohammad" as well his name is written in the bible
peace
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Shalom Kyle,
Peace be upon you Lote Tree,
I still don't understand - was the inspiration came from a single person and written by many hands? or many hands had the inspiration and many hands written it down?
I can only assume that the inspiration came to a single person and was later written by many (which would explain the slight difference in versions). We can verify even today that several people are still writing it down.
This is better. This is more logical. This is in accordance with evidence from "non-muslims" sources that have recorded a certain person preaching the authentic religion of Abraham in that time period. The slight differences in the text has been noted in coins dating from that era. Even the Dome of the Rock bears inscription which is slighly different from that is recorded in scripture.
Well, reading a book does not give me certainty, it only gives me a direction to research. I dont take it as truth just because someone wrote it. Verification is the only way to certainty.
That is fine. But when you start to say scripture is written by hands of scribes and Muhammad is a description and not a name, this not verifying but denying possible truth of the matter.
You are free to believe that, but I must challenge that every time because there is no evidence to support that.
But when you say Muhammad is a description is not a name then you are not challenging anything. You are playing with words.
Becoming "muhammadun" serves as a far better guide than blindly believing in someones proper name.
That was not the point. My point was about finding finding the truth. We owe to ourselves to find the Truth from whatever scraps of information we have from fossils to archelogoical scatches on stones. Truth serves us a better guide. Finding the Truth about Dinosaurs roaming the earth millions of years ago is very important guide to humanity. It tells us we have a very long evolutionary past. Our whole frame of thinking changes. This is what Truth serves us. Truth itself is the Guide...
We might as well believe in Santa Claus to avoid "hiding from the truth".
But saying "Santa Claus" is a description and not a name is indeed "hiding from the Truth".
I understand this is difficult for some, but this is how things have been done since ancient times, symbolism. Natural events being personified into stories.
I understand symbolism very well. I am a poet. But even Symbolism should not stop us from gleaming the the truth from all availalable sources...symbolism should not stop us from looking for the fossils...
Regards,
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Peace be upon you Ahmed and Lote tree,
Brothers, I think both of you have forgotten to address this post so I will repeat it here
(616) ...and an announcer of good news with a messenger (that) comes from after me, his name (is) Ahmad ."
So is it "muhammadun" or is it "ahmad"? And is it a name or a description?
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Peace be upon you Ahmed and Lote tree,
Brothers, I think both of you have forgotten to address this post so I will repeat it here
(616) ...and an announcer of good news with a messenger (that) comes from after me, his name (is) Ahmad ."
So is it "muhammadun" or is it "ahmad"? And is it a name or a description?
Hello Idolfree
sorry for the delay being flat out all around
I really don't have much to say here bro, the Quran in 616 is saying the words that jesus was telling to his people, he named Mohammad as Ahmad, but regardless of the meaning or the root, both rimes together and in fact the prophet in many of the hadith "history record only" was called Ahmed and Mustafa and many other names as far as i believe
the point is it was refering to the last prophet as his name and he surely had a few names associated with him
this is another proof that Mohammad delivered the message exactly as it was sent to him letter by letter, because if it was not the case then I wonder why he didn't put Mohammad instead?
but to use this argument as an evidence that Mohammad was nothing but a symbloic figure for us to follow is nothing but dust in a thin air, sorry, no hard evidneces provided
the whole theory you support is a collapsable one and I can show you easily if you want to discuss it with me in full details and slowely please
peace
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
sorry for the delay being flat out all around
No problem brother.
I really don't have much to say here bro, the Quran in 616 is saying the words that jesus was telling to his people, he named Mohammad as Ahmad
So his name is Ahmad or is it Muhammad? It cant be both or we have a contradiction.
but regardless of the meaning or the root, both rimes together and in fact the prophet in many of the hadith "history record only" was called Ahmed and Mustafa and many other names as far as i believe
Objection your honor!! D Hearsay!
the point is it was refering to the last prophet as his name and he surely had a few names associated with him
I disagree respectfully, ahmad is a description and muhammadun is the same thing in another form. Both refer to "hamd".
this is another proof that Mohammad delivered the message exactly as it was sent to him letter by letter, because if it was not the case then I wonder why he didn't put Mohammad instead?
Yes, I wonder too, if taken as a proper name, but I no longer wonder because I read them as descriptions.
but to use this argument as an evidence that Mohammad was nothing but a symbloic figure for us to follow is nothing but dust in a thin air, sorry, no hard evidneces provided
This is very clear evidence, its just har to accept at first. It took me a while to seriously consider it.
the whole theory you support is a collapsable one and I can show you easily if you want to discuss it with me in full details and slowely please
Sure, you throw first.
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
Peace be with you mate
So his name is Ahmad or is it Muhammad? It cant be both or we have a contradiction.
no bro, under the arabic traditions, most men have more than one name, for example My brother who is a doctor in egypt is named Mohammad, and he is known in the hospitals as Dr Mohammad, however WE IN THE FAMILY NEVER EVER CALLED HIM MOHAMMAD, WE KNOW HIM AS HAMDY
true man and I swear by the Quran, so my brother name is Mohammad and I never call him as such but I call him Hamdy, but at work he is called Dr Mohammad
also the prophet has many names as far as the history and the hearsay goes
Objection your honor!! D Hearsay!
Objection accepted
I disagree respectfully, ahmad is a description and muhammadun is the same thing in another form. Both refer to "hamd".
true and that is why both refer to the prophet
like Mohammad and Hamdy, both refer to my brother lol
Yes, I wonder too, if taken as a proper name, but I no longer wonder because I read them as descriptions.
My wonder is only valid if I consider the Quran man made, but I have no wonder because the Quran is no manmade and surely Allah chose that name for his prophet
This is very clear evidence, its just har to accept at first. It took me a while to seriously consider it.
I agree that things are hard to accept at first espeially if it is contradicting a firm belief, however I'm really open minded but I only accept verses from the Quran when it comes to hard core beleif, and please show me what verses in the Quran that support your concept
Sure, you throw first.
no bro it has to be your turn to throw first, and what you need to throw is only verses from the Quran and I will respond to it inshaallah
peace be with you
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Hi AhmedBahgat,
My wonder is only valid if I consider the Quran man made, but I have no wonder because the Quran is no manmade and surely Allah chose that name for his prophet
What u wrote struck me.
''Allah chose that name for the prophet ?'' or was it ''Allah chose a prophet and his name was/happened to be Mohammed?''Peace!
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Hi AhmedBahgat,
My wonder is only valid if I consider the Quran man made, but I have no wonder because the Quran is no manmade and surely Allah chose that name for his prophet
What u wrote struck me.
''Allah chose that name for the prophet ?'' or was it ''Allah chose a prophet and his name was/happened to be Mohammed?''Peace!
Sorry mate, it sounds confusing I guess, well there is a lot of confusion in here lol
what I meant is Allah chose the name Ahmad in the Quran when He told us about what Jesus was saying to his people,
however it is not the case that the prophet just happened to be the same name, it is the case that Allah knows the future because he not restricted to the time line as we are, as well he planned it to happen from he first place, so possibly He used Ahmad to test some peopel with that?
I don't really know, but what I know that Ahmad is Mohammad is The comforter, is the Counsllor is Mustafa, is Mahmmoud is Hamdy is Hemdan, is Hamid, they all the same to me regarding the identity of the last prophet
peace be witn you
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Hi AhmedBahgat,
Hi AhmedBahgat,
My wonder is only valid if I consider the Quran man made, but I have no wonder because the Quran is no manmade and surely Allah chose that name for his prophet
What u wrote struck me.
''Allah chose that name for the prophet ?'' or was it ''Allah chose a prophet and his name was/happened to be Mohammed?''
Peace!Sorry mate, it sounds confusing I guess, well there is a lot of confusion in here lol
what I meant is Allah chose the name Ahmad in the Quran when He told us about what Jesus was saying to his people,however it is not the case that the prophet just happened to be the same name, it is the case that Allah knows the future because he not restricted to the time line as we are, as well he planned it to happen from he first place, so possibly He used Ahmad to test some peopel with that?
That makes sense. Obviously Allah knows what is to come and thus had decided who the next and the last prophet would be, and from which tribe and born to whom, and at what time period etc.
Ahmed/Mohammed is the same person.
I dont think its a 'description' coz when we think of the name as a desciption, more than one person can fit into it, and that would disagree with truth and hence doesnt make much sense.Peace!
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Peace be upon you,
I dont think its a 'description' coz when we think of the name as a desciption, more than one person can fit into it, and that would disagree with truth and hence doesnt make much sense.
Its meant for ANYPERSON who can rise to the occasion. Why would we be given a nickname as a prophecy of a future prophet?
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Hello all
I think Allah also called Jesus by many names in the Quran
- Isa
- Massih
- Ibn Mariam
just a small note
peace be with all
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Hello Idolefree
based on what I can read from your concept, I would like to ask you the following question please
do you believe that Noah, Mohammad, Jesus, Abraham, and many other prophets mentioned in the Quran, EXISTED FOR REAL during a period in the timeline of mankind history on planet earth?
Yes / No ?
Thanks
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Peace be upon you Ahmad,
I think Allah also called Jesus by many names in the Quran
- Isa
- Massih
- Ibn Mariam
Yes, and each is designed to point us to a certain concept. Ahmad and mahmaduun are the same word in diffferent forms, thats the difference.
do you believe that Noah, Mohammad, Jesus, Abraham, and many other prophets mentioned in the Quran, EXISTED FOR REAL during a period in the timeline of mankind history on planet earth?
Yes / No ?
Not literally no. They exsisted within ALL of mankind in some form or the other, just as Abu Lahab(father of the flame)existed and still does in many people. These are concepts of mankinds behavior, not single persons in history.
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Thanks idolefree
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Salam,
In my opinion, the communication between God and prophets was always through angels. Nodya doesn't mean direct communication. We have found similar expression in Chapter 37 verse 104 when God called Prophet Ibrahim.
We called to him, "O Abraham, (104)
Also, there is a verse in Quran in Chapter 42 verse 11 that there is nothing like unto him which categorically rejected the idea that Moses heard God voice directly. The verse in Chapter 42 which describes the ways of God's communications are actually one thing. The revelation is actually from behind the veil and through messenger. We knew that the Quran is a word of God and God spoke to whole mankind through Prophet Muhammad. Therefore, the revelation came to us through messenger and behind the veil. Although there is no veil for God, same way like there is no Ghaib for God. Human mind require frame of reference therefore God used those terms to deliver his message. Same as like God's hand, God hear, see, listen etc.
Salam.
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Peace,
Recently when I was debating fellow members the nature of dialogues in the reading came up as a point. One of these was the "conversation" that occurred between the God and Moses.
I put forward my understanding that there was no outwardly audible voice able to be heard by a third party. That the nature of the interaction was internal and that the dialogue is presented as such to help understand the message; not an indicator of the event as it happenned.
Last night I found the evidence that supports what I have mentioned in relation to the "conversation" between the God and Moses while reading chapter 20.
In chapter 20 there is the beginning of inspiration...
2010 When he saw a fire, he said to his family, "Stay here. I have seen a fire. Maybe I can bring you some of it, or find some guidance at the fire."
2011 When he came to it, he was called, "O, Moses.
2012 "I am your Lord; remove your sandals. You are in the sacred valley, Tuwaa.
2013 "I have chosen you, so listen to what is being revealed.It would seem to the casual reader that this was a voice heard out loud as in the movie The Ten Commandments for example. An anthropomorphic view of voices and hearing with ears etc. The God does not communicate in such ways.
Later in the chapter is where this becomes manifest clearly...
2065 They said, "O Moses, either you throw, or we will be the first to throw."
2066 He said, "You throw." Whereupon, their ropes and sticks appeared to him, because of their magic, as if they were moving.
2067 Moses harbored some fear.
2068 We said, "Have no fear. You will prevail.
2069 "Throw what you hold in your right hand, and it will swallow what they fabricated. What they fabricated is no more than the scheming of a magician. The magician's work will not succeed."Here Moses is in the midst of Pharaoh, his magician's and his court and then in 2067 when Moses develops fear about the situation, the God again "speaks" and if we were to understand that this is an external voice then the courtiers and Pharaoh should hear it also!
This proves that the 'voice' is internal and is not even a dialogue but an inspiration thrown into the person.
Best wishes.
And has the episode - story of Ms reached you the Messenger ?
When he had seen fire whereby he said to his accompanying family
"You people stay here. Indeed I have seen and perceived fire; I am going there perhaps I will bring for you from there fire balls (it indicates that it was a cold night of winter)
Or I will get some guiding information at the place of the fire ".
Thereupon the moment he arrived at fire point he was loudly called, "O Ms
Indeed Me, I am the Sustainer Lord of you; therefore, being in My presence you remove both your shoes sit at ease.
Know it, you are presently located in the sanctified valley, Tuwa.
What seems to have been missed that led to stated perception is the word http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.171/416.%20Nida%20Noon%20Daal%20Waw/17.gif
Verb Perfect; Third person; singular; masculine; Passive; Proxy subject pronoun hidden; ; - Verbal noun.
And please read it with this information earlier given
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.164a.gif
Know it; Allah the Exalted had spoken with Musa in the manner of conversation.