To Andya Primanda and all believers in evolution
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Peace Idmkhizar,
Here are some interesting notes on your evidence-providing doctor
http//www.talkorigins.org/faqs/credentials.html
Hovind claims to possess a masters degree and a doctorate in education from Patriot University in Colorado. According to Hovind, his 250-page dissertation was on the topic of the dangers of teaching evolution in the public schools. Formerly affiliated with Hilltop Baptist Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado, Patriot University is accredited only by the American Accrediting Association of Theological Institutions, an accreditation mill that provides accreditation for a $100 charge. Patriot University has moved to Alamosa, Colorado and continues to offer correspondence courses for $15 to $32 per credit. The school's catalog contains course descriptions but no listing of the school's faculty or their credentials. Name It and Frame It lists Patriot University as a degree mill .http//www.chick.com/information/authors/hovind.asp
Some quotes from your "doctor"
-I can say with all certainty that the Bible is the infallible, inspired, inerrant Word of the living God
-The universe was created in 6 literal 24 hour days about 6,000 years ago
-Dinosaurs were created with man and were on the ark with Noah.
-After the flood they were hunted to the point of extinction in most parts of the world by man.
-A few dinosaurs are still alive in various parts of the world todayI rest my case.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Khizar,
I think that "macro" evolution makes sense. I think Allah wanted it to be that way. We all know that God doesnt have to try and try again until He succeeds, but there must be reasons why. It was all part of the same process from the birth of the first cell to the first human.
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Salam Jaxal,
SaLaM idmkhizar
ITs not different. Its the same thing. Ok tell me, how do you think we all came to being?
Khi- The atoms assembled themselves according to a divine plan and then maybe through an explosion similar to that of the cambrian we came into existence from the materials of the earth. Or the atoms just simply self assembled to form the first embryo in the mud with special coatings to protect it. All of it, the place, location and the time of those atoms assembling must also have been carefully calculated. GOD Bless!
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Salam Tay,
Some? Yes. So I take it that we now agree humans are not involoved in every case.
Khi- Didnt get that. What do you mean by "humans are not involved in every case"?
If that's your stance, then please tell me how long it should take for these transitions to become apparent? Furthermore, if a species is successful, then why would it need to transition?
Khi- Some transitions should be apparent in all times otherwise it doesnt make sense. Why would we find no transitions, of the great contnium that would have to be there, in our time?
Using your logic, every avenue of science, religion, arts, politics, and human thought in general should thus be discredited. Unless of course, you can name a branch of human thought that is completely free from any form of fraud throughout it's life.
Khi- Quran Aloners who believe in code-19 i guess. They never did any deliberate fraud. Mistakes can occur though and i never denied that. The probs arise with deliberate fraud as i mentioned earlier.
One example does not indict an entire field, bro. Again, if that's the case, then all knowledge is discredited.
Khi- See above.
Correct. One person commits a crime, and he is prosecuted. We don't indict his whole family, as you have done.
Khi- Do you know that many scientific text books TODAY still have those lies in them which were proven wrong 150 yrs ago, eg tht the human embryo has gill slits was proven wrong yrs ago yet macro evolutionists dont bother taking that out of their text books. Whales having a vestigial pelvis is another lie which is consistently being promoted by macro evolutionists. Actually those are anchor points with little muscles attached to them allowing whales to reproduce and it goes on and on.
I am not a scientist. Does this somehow cancel out my opinion? Are you a scientist?
Khi- The point is im not trying to prove macro evolution which you apparently are. So the burden of proof is on you. And no im not a scientist but we have a new member on the forum "mbbmb" i think and he is a MOLECULAR BIOLOGIST WHO DOESNT BELIEVE IN MACRO ape-men EVOLUTION and calls it a fraud. I guess you should discuss it with him too. So yes this may just weaken your position.
I'll tell you this much, I used to believe like you do, reading only from websites that promoted my preconceptions. Ever since I've taken an objective approach, cleaned the slate, if you will, and did the reading on my own without prejudice, the truth has become apparent.
Khi- You know what ive listened to both sides. Just go and check out the debate between michael shermer(ape-men promo) and Dr. Kent Hovind and make up your mind. Im sure you havent heard those debates before. I did hear many of them and came to the conclusion that all of those who promote ape-men evo are insincere in one way or the other. One ape-men evo even became mad and red hot with anger. Thats the debate i ordered just a week ago and im going to tell ou what it was like after im done watching that. In all of the debates actual references are always given and one can check it out for himself. I know very well the concept of ape-men evolution. It is a concept which makes otherwise simple understandings complicated which is in direct defiance of Occams Razor, which btw ape-men evos boast so much abt.
That's not what you said above.
Khi- I urge you to go to a nearby jungle, if any, where man hasnt interfered much or very little and then see how animals behave there.
I have. And that's why I've given you examples to look into, which you obviously haven't, since you stated
...
You believe? Based on what, your impeccable judgement and insight that requires zero research? Please bro. Man has absolutely nothing to do with these natural occurrences.Khi- Again i urge you to go to places in the jungle where man hasnt interfered with the natural world. Animals tend to cooperate with each other but by the time man has got into contact with them the system seems to have gotten distorted.
10,000 acres detsroyed every day by man, and you say the rain forests aren't manipulated much? Nevertheless, what exactly would you have me look for in a rain forest that would strengthen your position? I'll do the research, just tell me what direction your research should lead me. Keywords will suffice.
Khi- You didnt get what i said. I said go to PLACES IN THE RAIN FOREST WHERE MAN HASNT INTERFERRED MUCH AS YET, if there are any. Otherwise take up other jungles where man hasnt interferred or only a little.
Is he an evolutionary scientist, the same field that you claim has no credibilty? If so, why do you get to pick and choose your evidence? Nevertheless, please post his evidence and let us examine it objectively.
Khi- Please go and visit www.drdino.com , youll hopefully find everything there.
Why is it imperfect? You keep using this word without defining it.
Khi- Imperfect according to me means things competing instead of cooperating for example. Walking the earth without being yet fully adjusted to its environment is another important example of imperfection.
how is a brain perfect? Please define the word or define the criteria so that we can be on the same page. Pretty please, with sugar on top wink
Khi- See above.
How so? Brother, you can't say things and expect people to take you seriously without any explanation. Anyone can say anything. But without some sort of a logical backdrop, the words are empty.
Khi- See above.
Please provide the Qur'anic verse that states this. What you are implying is a fundamental contradiction of the Qur'an's position.
Khi- How does it contradict the Quran? Does the Quran say Iblis had no evil thoughts before in his mind before he fell? I dont think it does.
Really not interested in what RK did.
Khi- Oh so you dont believe in code-19 either and that 9128&129 do NOT belong to the Quran?
You haven't established a probability or a logical construct. So again, this is true according to you, but still baseless.
Khi- Ok ill leave it at that.
No, you haven't.
Peace,
TayKhi- Told you that otherwise the matjematical symmtry of the Quran is violated which you probably didnt study as yet. I urge you to go through RK's appendices. GOD Bless!
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Salam Jaxal,
SaLaM idmkhizar
So your theory is that atoms came together ( according to the divine plane ) forming the first organism.
Evolution says the same thing.
Khi- SO? I NEVER DENIED EVOLUTION IN GENERAL. I DENY MACRO EVOLUTION IN PARTICULAR THE APE-MEN EVOLUTION, AS IVE BEEN REPEATING FOR A HUNDRED TIMES NOW. GOD Bless!
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Salam phoenix
Peace Khizar,
I think that "macro" evolution makes sense. I think Allah wanted it to be that way. We all know that God doesnt have to try and try again until He succeeds, but there must be reasons why. It was all part of the same process from the birth of the first cell to the first human.
Khi- This process, if it were true, would have been absurd and is exactly the reason why ape-men evos deny the existence of GOD. One has to be blind not to see the consequences of such a concept. GOD doesnt want to discredit Himself. GOD Bless!
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Here are some interesting notes on your evidence-providing doctor
http//www.talkorigins.org/faqs/credentials.html
Hovind claims to possess a masters degree and a doctorate in education from Patriot University in Colorado. According to Hovind, his 250-page dissertation was on the topic of the dangers of teaching evolution in the public schools. Formerly affiliated with Hilltop Baptist Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado, Patriot University is accredited only by the American Accrediting Association of Theological Institutions, an accreditation mill that provides accreditation for a $100 charge. Patriot University has moved to Alamosa, Colorado and continues to offer correspondence courses for $15 to $32 per credit. The school's catalog contains course descriptions but no listing of the school's faculty or their credentials. Name It and Frame It lists Patriot University as a degree mill .Khi- Ill ignore this because such attacks always happen when one wants to discredit a person going against "majority" opinion.
http//www.chick.com/information/authors/hovind.asp
Some quotes from your "doctor"
-I can say with all certainty that the Bible is the infallible, inspired, inerrant Word of the living GodKhi- I never said that Dr. Hovind is right on each and everything. That is his belief for whatever reasons though absurd it maybe.
-The universe was created in 6 literal 24 hour days about 6,000 years ago
Khi- Possible but most unprobable id say though im not convinced of the radio matrix dating systems which have shown many inconsitencies. I sometimes even doubt whther the dates were not deliberately chosen to support the ape-men evo so id stay neutral on the dates. It's irrelevant to me. However both Dr. Kent and the ape-men evos have an agenda behind their dates, one indicating the Bible being true and the other indicating that there was enough TIME for men to have evolved by RANDOM mutations and natural selection(which btw is also random acc to them) and thus trying to make the concept of a creator onsolete.
-Dinosaurs were created with man and were on the ark with Noah.
Khi- This is very much possible although only a theory. Dr. Kent presents his supporting evidence for this too. Check his website or call him directly. I believe the tel. no should be there too.
-After the flood they were hunted to the point of extinction in most parts of the world by man.
Khi- Correct thats his theory and is very much possible and probable too.
-A few dinosaurs are still alive in various parts of the world today
I rest my case.
Peace,
TayKhi- Well depends on how you define them. Dr. Kent claims that a ceratin large reptile alive today may yet be termed as a dino. Call him and hell explain it better to you. GOD Bless!
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Salam Jaxal,
SaLaM idmkhizar
What do you think that first organism was? a human baby?
Khi- The organism was a replicating cell once the atoms assembled to that part. Then it probably did pass through all stages but i cant say whether the human creature walked the earth as a baby or stayed connected to the embryo wall until maturity when it received the soul and Adam was taught the names of different things from GOD directly
He taught Adam all the names then presented them to the angels, saying, "Give me the names of these, if you are right."
I tend more towards this 2nd one. GOD Bless! -
Salam Andaya Primanda,
Khi- As i said before fossils cannot count stand up as evidence in any court of the world. Moreover much of them, if not all, have been faked while others WERE DELIBERATELY PUT IN A FICTICIOUS ORDER TO FIT THE THEORY and this is not science but pure speculation of how it might have happened. So the only proof would be to show transitional forms alive today. After all why should all of them have vanished? Doesnt make any sense and is highly unprobable but is just another excuse to promote the ape-men evolution. GOD Bless!
And this is why I consider you ignorant and stubborn. Your claim 'much of them is fake or hoax' is not based on any evidence, while I have seen and touch fossils, even those that can be claimed as transitionals. They are not fakes, and they are accepted in the 'court' of science unlike what you claim. By the way, IIRC, in some US court cases related to the teaching of evolution and creationism, some scientist witnesses has used fossils as one of the main lines of evidence that points at evolution. And hey, they win. So fossils are credible in courts of US law too.
Human evolution is not an agenda that needs to be promoted by hoaxes and false credentials (You still claim that Kent Hovind is credible while even the creationists themselves have a low opinion of him). The evidence is there for all who have eyes and want to see them. Only those close-minded would deny the evidence.
Why should the transitionals vanish? They just went extinct, just like 99% of all species that have ever lived on Earth. Extinction is inevitable for all species, it's just a matter of time.
You are just ignorant, and worse, you refuse attempts to enlighten you. Acknowledge that.
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Peace Idmkhizar,
For the sake of brevity, I'll only address what is pertinent to the topic. If that's not OK with you, we can start a new thread...
Some transitions should be apparent in all times otherwise it doesnt make sense.
Again, bro, please give us a backdrop why it does not make sense. It does make sense if you understand that things don't evolve just to evolve. The process is a refinement and adaptation based on the environment. If an environment remains relatively static, and the species remains relatively successful then there is no need for refinement or adaptation.
in response to my query, "Using your logic, every avenue of science, religion, arts, politics, and human thought in general should thus be discredited. Unless of course, you can name a branch of human thought that is completely free from any form of fraud throughout it's life."
you replied
Quran Aloners who believe in code-19 i guess.
OK, so your position is that every facet of human knowledge that does not come from Qur'an Aloners who believe in code 19 must then be illegitimate? Is this your position?
Do you know that many scientific text books TODAY still have those lies in them which were proven wrong 150 yrs ago, eg tht the human embryo has gill slits was proven wrong yrs ago yet macro evolutionists dont bother taking that out of their text books.
Please provide me with the text to support your claim.
The point is im not trying to prove macro evolution which you apparently are. So the burden of proof is on you.
Actually, you started this thread, which called for a "LIVING transitional form between humans and apes". You went on to say that without this living evidence, "this whole argument is nothing but conjecture".
Yet, you've failed to prove why a living transitional form is even necessary. So, since we're getting to the heart of the matter, would you care to finally address this?
You didnt get what i said. I said go to PLACES IN THE RAIN FOREST WHERE MAN HASNT INTERFERRED MUCH AS YET, if there are any.
Yelling isn't nice cry
What you actually said, is
I advise you to go and search in places like the rain forest where man hasnt yet manipulated much and see how animals live there.
See, it's different than what you yelled above. It's OK though. Let's move on...
You want me to go to the jungle and search for harmoniuos animal life. Why? Did I ever say that animals don't live in harmony? What I said was, in nature, when more than one species competes for the same resource, and that resource become limited, then usually one species outperforms the other. I've given examples and you say these are all caused by men, but you don't say how they're caused by men, you ask me to go to the jungle and look at the harmony.
Is it me, or is this thing going in circles????
Please go and visit www.drdino.com , youll hopefully find everything there.
I did. I didn't find his resume on the website. Can you please post it if you have it. If not, I'll have to assume that these are his credentials
Graduated Midwestern Baptist College; "bachelor of religious education degree" "double majored in education and the Bible"
"I finished my Masters (198 and Doctorate (1991) degrees in education from Patriot University." "while it was a ministry of Hilltop Baptist Church"Imperfect according to me means things competing instead of cooperating for example. Walking the earth without being yet fully adjusted to its environment is another important example of imperfection.
Thank you for your definition.
Now, please tell me if lions and hyenas compete or cooperate.Does the Quran say Iblis had no evil thoughts before in his mind before he fell? I dont think it does
So your position is that Iblis was of the malaika, prior to the existence of man, and was already evil. Is this correct?
Oh so you dont believe in code-19 either and that 9128&129 do NOT belong to the Quran?
Bro, stay focused. If you want to debate code 19 we can do it on anoher thread.
Told you that otherwise the matjematical symmtry of the Quran is violated which you probably didnt study as yet. I urge you to go through RK's appendices.
This has nothing to do with what you said
Ive given you logical reasons as to why my views maybe more resonable and probable
You didn't do what said you did, nor have you addressed your claim that initiated this very thread.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Idmkhizar,
Ill ignore this because such attacks always happen when one wants to discredit a person going against "majority" opinion.
OK. We'll cross-reference the info once you post his credentials.
I never said that Dr. Hovind is right on each and everything. That is his belief for whatever reasons though absurd it maybe.
Fair enough. I agree with the second part.
This is very much possible although only a theory. Dr. Kent presents his supporting evidence for this too. Check his website or call him directly. I believe the tel. no should be there too.
Possible? Are you kidding me? Dinosaurs lived with man and were on Noah's Ark? How big was this Ark, the size of Japan? Further, you say "only a theory".
www.dictionary.com
the?o?ry ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-r, th?r)
n. pl. the?o?ries
A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.I'd say it's a wild guess...
guess ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gs)
v. guessed, guess?ing, guess?es
v. tr.
To assume, presume, or assert (a fact) without sufficient informationPeace,
Tay -
Khizar,
About going to rainforests and animals living in harmony
Why don't you ask me? I have been doing that stuff. I come from Indonesia where there are rainforests! I've been in them.
And yes, the animals kill each other. I know for one that rhinos and wild bulls compete for food (rhinos usually lose, poor beasts. This comes from a friend of mine who was researching rhinos). Don't get me started on insects. Nasty little ones, they are. Ants will tolerate no living thing that got into their way--they will attack everything beetles, termites,even mice and frogs.
But considering you're living in Germany I don't suppose you go to jungles often? Then how can you say animals live in harmony without evidence while I have seen otherwise right where you say it happens? Is that how you argue?