Is reincarnation possible in reality ?
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Peace Tanveer,
I sincerely hope I'm not frustrating you with this dialogue. This is not my intent.
For a logical debate to take place we need to accurately define the topic of the debate which is universally acceptable.
I agree.
IMO according to the mainstream reincarnation theory if someone murders someone else, the only way the karmic debt can be paid off is by the murderer getting murdered himself/herself in the next life.
That certainly seems valid, but I've never read a description of Karma in such concrete terms.
According to my understanding of the reincarnation theory, a karmic debt due to a deed performed in a past life can be repaid only by performance of a deed in the current life, the nature and magnitude of which is EXACTLY similar to the deed in the past life, and for that one needs to have memory of the deed in the past life, including its nature and magnitude.
This is the first point where we seem to seperate in our understandings. You say one must remember and repair in the current life. I say one remembers in the in-between. I agree to disagree.
Either way, the soul entering the reincarnation cycle at an earlier time will have MORE TOTAL TIME/CYCLES than the soul entering the cycle at a later time which is UNFAIR. What is the fault of the soul entering the cycle at a later time for having lesser time/cycles in order to achieve nirvana?
The soul entering reincarnation cycle earlier will have MORE TOTAL OR ABSOLUTE TIME/CYCLES than the soul entering the cycle later. The end point is fixed and is the same for all souls as per the following
4172 ..............then He will gather them all towards Him TOGETHER.That is not fair for the "newer" soul. Why should the "newer" soul have LESSER ABSOLUTE TIME/CYCLES to achieve nirvana ?
Let me try this this example, oversimplified (please try to ignore the biological impossibilities)
There is only 1 person on Earth Jane
Jane is on her 9th life. Population 1
John is born. Population 2
The day of ressurrection is fixed at the point when John completes his cycle, since John is now the last new soul.
Jane eventually finishes her cycle. John is left. Population1
She waits in peace, in some in-between state, until John finishes his cycle.
John completes his cycle. Population0
The day of judgement, as was set, is upon John and Jane.So the population increased(present), and then decreased(future) as the day of judgement drew near and no new souls were brought into the loop. Jane finished her cycle, and waited for John to finish his cycle. So, even though John was introduced later than Jane, he still had equal opportunity with Jane. There is nothing unfair about this scenario. Do you agree?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
This is the first point where we seem to seperate in our understandings. You say one must remember and repair in the current life. I say one remembers in the in-between. I agree to disagree.
Once again we need an accurate and universally acceptable definition of the reincarnation phenomenon. Your version is that the soul remembers in-between cycles and chooses the next experience. My version is that the next experience is FORCED on the soul as a result of the karmic debt accumulated in the previous life. Which version is true ?
Regardless of which version is true, in order to repay the karmic debt one has to remember while actually living the current life. If one remembers in-between cycles, one may only be able to choose the next experience/situation (which I disagree) but cannot choose all the ACTIONS/DEEDS in the next life in that particular experience/situation. The actions/deeds are the ones that repay the karmic debt. One needs to remember in the current life the deeds done in the previous life, including their nature and magnitude, in order to appropriately repay and neutralize the karmic debt.
So the population increased(present), and then decreased(future) as the day of judgement drew near and no new souls were brought into the loop. Jane finished her cycle, and waited for John to finish his cycle. So, even though John was introduced later than Jane, he still had equal opportunity with Jane. There is nothing unfair about this scenario. Do you agree?
I have the same explanation for the increase and decrease in population in this plane of existence without changing the sum total number of souls. The problem is no one knows how many cycles it will take to repay/resolve the karmic debt. It could take one cycle or a million cycles. In order to be fair, each soul should have EQUAL TOTAL TIME/CYCLES available from the outset.
Let's make some concrete assumptions. Soul "A" is introduced in the reincarnation cycle now. Soul "B" is introduced in the reincarnation cycle 1000 years later. Last Day is fixed at say 10,000 years from now. The soul "B" that is introduced in the reincarnation cycle at a point 1000 years later than the soul "A" has a lesser TOTAL TIME (9,000 years) to be able to repay/resolve the karmic debts, as compared to 10,000 years for soul "A" and that makes it unfair for soul "B".
Both souls have no idea how long it will take to resolve the karmic debt, especially with no memory of past deeds and trying to repay the karmic debt in a blind, trial and error fashion. That makes it unfair for soul "B" to have lesser total time/cycles to resolve the karmic debt.
You are assuming that even though soul "B" has 1000 years less than soul "A", it will still be able to repay/resolve the karmic debt in the lesser time. It may or it may not. What is the fault of soul "B" to start with an unfair disadvantage of having lesser time right from the outset ?
The other objection that you have still not addressed is that even though the soul is the same, why should a BODY "Y" in the current life that is genetically, physiologically, and metabolically DIFFERENT from the BODY "X" in the previous life, be responsible for the actions/deeds of BODY "X". In order for reincarnation theory to be true the body in this life has to be PERFECTLY IDENTICAL in every way to the body in the previous life, only then it will be fair.
A person is combination of soul and body and rooh. The "nafs" is combination of soul and body.
2136 Every nafs will taste death. And We burden you with evil and good as a test, and it is to Us that you will return.
Soul does not die, but the body does. So "nafs" has to include body.
6167 Say "Shall I seek other than God as a Lord when He is the Lord of everything?" And every nafs earns what is for it, and none will bear the burden of another.
Regards,
Tanveer
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But this "PARADIGM" that "this world is a MENTAL CREATION of the God" has a very negative implication that the God is a psychopath, very sick mentally, I should say.
Anwar Azim
Peace Bro,
Why the judgement? The only basis you have for that comment are your perceptions...which, as a human, are limited to say the least.
Peace Sis,
The basis for your comment to my comment is your perception about me making a judgement.
Anyway, think about what is going on in this world. If you think it is the "MENTAL CREATION of the God", then I think you too must be sick. No offense meant. Tell me, why should anyone be responsible for one's actions if one is someone else's mental creation?
Anwar Azim
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Salaamun alaykum.
If I may add my thoughts
I think noone of us would ponder about reincarnation if the western interest in eastern religions like Hinduism and Buddhism hadn`t brought this idea into western esotericism and spirituality.
Sure, there were European ideas of reincarnation before (like with Pythagoras) but these were also likely introduced from the east.
We are pondering about an interesting philosophy but we wouldn?t ponder much about it if we had just the Qur?an as our only source of knowledge and not these influences of our time.
I am not saying that it is wrong to think about this philosophy to get clues on the real meaning of the Quran. Let?s not forget that the ancient people of South Asia also had their true messengers of God. But one should always think about why one is kept busy with these thoughts. Is it out of a certain trend in society, or out of definit statements in the book od God??Now, the interesting thing is that the current ideas on reincarnation in the west are largely based on misunderstandings and folk religion and not on a true and wholesome knoweledge of the Hindu or Buddhist philosophy.
When you ask the great philosophers of Hinduism and Buddhism many of them will tell you that the concept of reincarnation has to be seen more as symbolic than as physical.
I once had a Buddhist monk explain to me that one needs to understand that the center of the Buddhist struggle is always the current human life and all teachings of Buddhism need to be understood in that frame.
Thus, when the Buddhist scriptures speak of reincarnation as an animal, a rich person, a plant etc. this is about psychological states in this life.
This is also the teaching of the Thai Buddhist philosopher Buddhadasa. Interestingly, Buddhadasa had in Buddhism a similar path to the `Quranis? in Islam, by the way. He went back to the most original scriptures of Buddha and left aside all the innovations of later times.This Buddhist interpretation of a psychological reincarnation is probably pretty identical to the Quranic verses that tell us how God turned some people into swines and dogs, I think.
The traditionalist Hindu author Coomaraswamy also writes in his "The Desacrilization of Hinduism for Western Consumption" (the title already tells a lot!)
What is forgotten is that reincarnation as such is not a Hindu doctrine, but rather a theosophist one and that, if reincarnation were in fact something that could occur, it would be seen from the Hindu point of view as a failure. The purpose of life from the Hindu point of view is not to be reborn and given another chance to indulge one's passions, but rather a liberation from the entire process of becoming. It is true that many Hindus believe in a vague kind of reincarnation. However, there is no mention of reincarnation as such in the Vedas and the criteria for Hindu orthodoxy requires a Vedic source.There is one more aspect that one should think about when pondering about reincarnation from a muslim?s perspective. I pesonally think the Quran is clear that we only have this human life as our trial for eternity. However, the Quran is also clear that our life is not an independent entity. It depends on God as does everything else. Everywhere you turn to you will see the expression of Allah.
So, all lifes and all planes of being of all times in this universe are interconnected. There is no solitary life in this world.
My nafs, I think, was only in this world in this life. However, the Quran also tells us that all human souls were created from one soul. My nafs has a deep connection to the nufus (?) of all the humans before me and we are all based on one nafs.Allah Hafiz,
Leyla
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Peace Sis,
The basis for your comment to my comment is your perception about me making a judgement. )
Yes it is. But I'm not quite getting your point?
The whole point of me voicing my perception to YOU is to garner your perception or begin discussion. And you can choose to explain your position further, or not.
But when it comes to God, my perception doesn't amount to a hill of beans. So that means my judgement doesn't either.
Thats my position.
And no, I don't think this world is a "Mental Creation" of the God. "mental", once again, is a human perception of which I have no proof of its applicability to the Creator. God is omnipotent. And creation only exist because of the God. EVERYTHING that happens in the universe is God's Will...regardless of whether or not we think its good or bad or sick. It doesn't matter what we think.
If you think it is the "MENTAL CREATION of the God", then I think you too must be sick
Fair enough. Your judgements and perceptions are your own. People can challenge you, but no one on this Earth can take it away from you...
Tell me, why should anyone be responsible for one's actions if one is someone else's mental creation?
Umm...are you really expecting me to answer that truthfully? Sorry. I can't. But don't worry. You'll definitely find out the Truth soon enough. We all will.
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Peace Salikah,
And no, I don't think this world is a "Mental Creation" of the God. "mental", once again, is a human perception of which I have no proof of its applicability to the Creator. God is omnipotent. And creation only exist because of the God. EVERYTHING that happens in the universe is God's Will...regardless of whether or not we think its good or bad or sick. It doesn't matter what we think.
When a man wrongs another man or woman, is God willing that? Is God also just?
Anwar Azim
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SaLaM Salikah
EVERYTHING that happens in the universe is God's Will...regardless of whether or not we think its good or bad or sick. It doesn't matter what we think.
God says otherwise
Any good that befalls you is from God, and any bad that befalls you is from yourself. We have sent you as a messenger to the people and God is enough as a witness.
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Peace all,
BAD IS FROM ALLAH OR FROM OURSELVES ?
For a detailed discussion on this topic which also shows how the relevant ayaat have been traditionally mistranslated, please see the following link
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3812
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Peace upon you all intelligent brothers and sisters,
In my lowly opinion,
i approach this concept (which many believes or not) in two ways
- i believe in the rebirth after rebirth (the broad and mythical view)
- i believe our state of mind is reincarnation itself (the inner and more individual view)
When people asked about my 1) proof, i give them the book of twenty suggestive cases of reincarnation or simply tibetan book of dead which explains about the bardos.
If people ask me about decrease or increase of souls, there's a doctrine that state that the 'soul' could divide itself. So the increase or decrease dosen't matter anymore (again according to foolish me).
If people ask me whether there is soul factory or newer or older souls,
i simply quote the wise weaver lady in her talk with the siddharta buddha about several esoteric questions as follows
a) Do you know (when you are going to die)?
she answered, "no."
b) will you know (where you headed after death)?
she answered, "No".
c) will you go (will you someday died)?
she answered, "yes"
this implied even the enlightened model didn't exactly know where they will head after dead. The surety is that death will come no matter what. That's why the doctrine implies strongest possible effort in the remaining times. And there's no question or answer that could satisfy whether there is soul factory or not (unless we build it and register it with the brand 'soul factory) tee hee).But i believe that the universe is mirror to our existence and God's nature. It included the mind. The erratic, jumping, restless, dreaming, wandering, ever-changing mind is reincarnation itself. Each moment, i believe we are never the same as before. As philosopher spoke, "You can't cross the same river twice" so we can't encounter the same state of mind twice. Why? Because the mind itself is dead and birth. It was the proof of reincarnation concept, as we could be bad for one moment, then good for the next moment.
The concept that allowed change to occur is reincarnation itself, i believe.
Then what is the strength of this mind? one might ask. Then i believe the fastest thing in the universe is mind. Much faster than light. The faster one thing the greater also the potential power. If mind is faster than light, it proves again how we are really imprisoned inside this body of (entrapped light) or electrons, and followed the nature of decay and growth. Even after we died.Salaam, or mettacittena (may all beings be happy).
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Peace be upon you Rhadamanthus,
I look foward to great discussion with you. I like your approach.
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Thank you all. Nice to meet you all.
Hope we can gain insight together. o -
Peace Rhad,
Welcome, and thank you for the insightful, thought-provoking post.
"You can't cross the same river twice"
Just beautiful, bro.
The faster one thing the greater also the potential power. If mind is faster than light, it proves again how we are really imprisoned inside this body
I agree completely.
Peace,
Tay -
Well, first you are implying that the energy that is reincarnated is a single entity. What if it's not? What if that energy can be split in order to gain a greater knowledge? Also, because reincarnation takes into account ALL living things as possible transitions, you can account for the greater human population by looking at extinct species.
Now for memory? What good would living a life be, if you knew exactly WHY you were living it. That is like knowing the answers to the test. You may get the test right but you misss all the periferal knowledge that comes with the studying
If anything reincarnation is PROVED in nature as everything that dies, eventually becames part of something else.
Look, if you believe in reincarantion, you take into account a time between worldly existence, where you are faced with the truth of your life and what you did with it. It is then that you either choose or are sent to a new existence in order to get closer to a total knowledge of all things and all perspectives. Pretty simple really.
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What an amazing approach! I never thought so...
But I want to add about memory problem... We all know that our memory works funnily. Sometimes we remember the things we don't want most, while the most happiest (wrong grammar Rhad!!) memory tend to slip away as we pass it in trance or rapture-like moment. My (stupid) point is that there must be something that create this pattern of reminiscence.
But in the subconscious, we remember almost the minutest detail long forgotten or even realized, as psychological test proved via hypnotical test.Based on that, it referred to the concept of Vinnana (consciousness), where its eight layer (Alanna) served as its warehouse of memory, pattern, habits, that we are hardly aware of.
Yet again, a concept is merely a concept. Attachment to a concept blindly, or grasping on it like it was a possession are not advantageous. We all should realize which concept moved us the most and which turned on the bad thinking inside. After all, the moment we live now and at present is the most important one.
Again, it was another stupid me...
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Each moment, i believe we are never the same as before. As philosopher spoke, "You can't cross the same river twice" so we can't encounter the same state of mind twice.
Yes, mind is always in a state of flux.
If mind is faster than light, it proves again how we are really imprisoned inside this body of (entrapped light) or electrons, and followed the nature of decay and growth.
Yes, Plato wrote about this 2000 years ago that we are imprisoned in a material body.
And welcom to the forum sun
Rhadamanthus - the name is Greek isn't it? -)
Regards,
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Yes. The rhadamanthus is to be my trade mark (hope so...)
Isn't that right, Adley? -
Yes. The rhadamanthus is to be my trade mark (hope so...)
Isn't that right, Adley?I hope you don't take up the Role of Rhadamanthus of devising terrible punishments for sinners wink
Regards,
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Salaam,
Yes. The rhadamanthus is to be my trade mark (hope so...)
Isn't that right, Adley?Sure hope so brother
I hope you don't take up the Role of Rhadamanthus of devising terrible punishments for sinners
I don't think he'll do that -- giving severe punishments that is. But he does do the judging lol
Wasalaam,
=adley=