the reading(quran) is not the title of any book

Fahad1

SaLaM Saladin

Surely, those who have rejected the Reminder when it came to them; and it is an Honourable Scripture.

The Quran refers to itself has 'kitabul aziz' / honourable book.

salam .
i agree with you . i was only asking idolfree his opinion about what Quran says about itself.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you ,

(4141) Surely those who rejected with the reminder when (it) came to them, and surely it is glorious/honorable Universal Law(kitaab).

WHen someone tells you not to smoke because it destroys your lungs, dont reject universal law. Or when they tell you to treat others kindly, don reject universal law.

Fahad1

What according to u, is the book traditionally called 'Quran', containing 114 chapters?

If it is verifyable truth, then it is the God's word. I am finiding it to be the God's word, written through man of course.

u r saying that every verifiable truth is God's word ?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

u r saying that every verifiable truth is God's word ?

Absolutely 100%

Fahad1

Peace be upon you,

u r saying that every verifiable truth is God's word ?

Absolutely 100%

how do u conclude that ?

unknownuser

Hi idolfree1,

What according to u, is the book traditionally called 'Quran', containing 114 chapters?

If it is verifyable truth, then it is the God's word. I am finiding it to be the God's word, written through man of course.

981 Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, were not going to depart (from their ways) until there should come to them Clear Evidence,-
982 An apostle from Allah, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy
983 Wherein are laws (or decrees) right and straight.
984 Nor did the People of the Book make schisms, until after there came to them Clear Evidence.
985 And they have been commanded no more than this To worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being true (in faith); to establish regular prayer; and to practise regular charity; and that is the Religion Right and Straight.
986 Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.
987 Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures.
988 Their reward is with Allah. Gardens of Eternity, beneath which rivers flow; they will dwell therein for ever; Allah well pleased with them, and they with Him all this for such as fear their Lord and Cherisher.

Who is ''commanding'' us in the above verses?
And who is the ''apostle to whom the scripture is rehearsed''?

Peace!

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Saladin,

Quote
u r saying that every verifiable truth is God's word ?

Absolutely 100%

how do u conclude that ?

It is TRUTH that guides, nothing else. So who else brings truth to man but the God?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

981 Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, were not going to depart (from their ways) until there should come to them Clear Evidence,-
982 An apostle from Allah, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy
983 Wherein are laws (or decrees) right and straight.
984 Nor did the People of the Book make schisms, until after there came to them Clear Evidence.
985 And they have been commanded no more than this To worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being true (in faith); to establish regular prayer; and to practise regular charity; and that is the Religion Right and Straight.
986 Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.
987 Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures.
988 Their reward is with Allah. Gardens of Eternity, beneath which rivers flow; they will dwell therein for ever; Allah well pleased with them, and they with Him all this for such as fear their Lord and Cherisher.

Who is ''commanding'' us in the above verses?

It is the God who "commands", but dont take "command" to literally, if teh God were to "command", then we would all be robots, but we have free will, to choose to follow the "commands". It is Universal Law that beats us up when we do wrong, and this LAW was set in place by the The All Powerful.

And who is the ''apostle to whom the scripture is rehearsed''?

Rasool is messenger, I dont use apostle. The "pages" are rehearsed to ANYONE who raises to that level. Universal Law is made clear to the serious student. We all have within us the potential to be a prophet and messenger. MOst will never make it to prophet, but many are messengers. Anytime you deliver truth to someone, you are a messenger(only during the act of delivering).

Jaxal

SaLaM idolfree

Peace be upon you ,

(4141) Surely those who rejected with the reminder when (it) came to them, and surely it is glorious/honorable Universal Law(kitaab).

WHen someone tells you not to smoke because it destroys your lungs, dont reject universal law. Or when they tell you to treat others kindly, don reject universal law.

The verse is clearly refering to the Quran as a book. 'KITAB'. Not law. Well, i would have pasted the arabic verse but i dont know how to get the arabic verse. Can anyone tell me how i can copy paste the arabic verses?

Fahad1

salam idolfree .

does the Quran ever refer to itself ?
does the Quran claim to be the word of God ?
what is the importance of the Quran ?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Saladin,

does the Quran ever refer to itself ?

Bring some verses so we can look it over.

does the Quran claim to be the word of God ?

Statements(quran) that are verified to be true(haqq) are the word of the God.

what is the importance of the Quran ?

You are asking what is the importance of the 114 chapters? Assuming it is all truth, then it is a guide for mankind.

Fahad1

salam .

does the Quran ever refer to itself ?

Bring some verses so we can look it over.

i believe that all the verses that Jaxal has posted refer to the Quran . but i was asking your opinion . does it ever refer to itself ?

does the Quran claim to be the word of God ?

Statements(quran) that are verified to be true(haqq) are the word of the God.

i was talking about the 114 chaptered Quran . does it claim to be God's word ?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Saladin,

i believe that all the verses that Jaxal has posted refer to the Quran . but i was asking your opinion . does it ever refer to itself ?

The message points us to the signs of the universe, from the horizons to within our spirits. It does not tell us to remain focused inside 114 chapters.

i was talking about the 114 chaptered Quran . does it claim to be God's word ?

Since "quran' does not mean 114 chaptered book, then no. However the God teh TRUTH if from the God and if the 114 chapters are Truth, then it is from the God. If there is a specific verse you want to discuss, please bring it foward.

Fahad1

salam idolfree .

Peace be upon you Saladin,

i believe that all the verses that Jaxal has posted refer to the Quran . but i was asking your opinion . does it ever refer to itself ?

The message points us to the signs of the universe, from the horizons to within our spirits. It does not tell us to remain focused inside 114 chapters.

so thats a "no" ?

that sounds strange . the book that points us to so many things from horizon to within ourselves and covers so many topics , doesnt ever refer to itself ? it doesnt ever tell anything about itself ? it doesnt even tell what it's purpose is ?

even in its beginning , in surah baqrah , when the Quran says ?this is the book whereof there is no doubt(zalik al kitab la raib feeh)? ; the book is referring to itself , it is introducing itself . Quran itself is a book . why in the world would this book/kitab refer to some book/kitab(universe, u say) other than itself ?

i was talking about the 114 chaptered Quran . does it claim to be God's word ?

Since "quran' does not mean 114 chaptered book, then no. However the God teh TRUTH if from the God and if the 114 chapters are Truth, then it is from the God. If there is a specific verse you want to discuss, please bring it foward.

check out this article

Koran and Self-Reference http//members.aol.com/silence004/godel.htm

salam.

Jaxal

SaLaM idolfree

The Quran CLEARLY referes to itself as a book. An honourable book at that. It calls itself the Quran. Quran referes to itself as a 'Book' called 'Quran'. I dont see how it can be any more simpler than that.

unknownuser

Hi idolfree1,

981 Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, were not going to depart (from their ways) until there should come to them Clear Evidence,-
982 An apostle from Allah, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy
983 Wherein are laws (or decrees) right and straight.
984 Nor did the People of the Book make schisms, until after there came to them Clear Evidence.
985 And they have been commanded no more than this To worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being true (in faith); to establish regular prayer; and to practise regular charity; and that is the Religion Right and Straight.
986 Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.
987 Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures.
988 Their reward is with Allah. Gardens of Eternity, beneath which rivers flow; they will dwell therein for ever; Allah well pleased with them, and they with Him all this for such as fear their Lord and Cherisher.
Who is ''commanding'' us in the above verses?

It is the God who "commands", but dont take "command" to literally, if teh God were to "command", then we would all be robots, but we have free will, to choose to follow the "commands". It is Universal Law that beats us up when we do wrong, and this LAW was set in place by the The All Powerful.

Idol free1, IF only u read the whole verse where 'command' is used, U would realise what is being commanded by Allah, to those who wish to see the truth.
Who said anything about not having free will ?
'Religion/faith/belief is also a matter of choice for man. There is no compulsion in religion.

Anyways, What I asked u was, do u recognise these verses are from God?
And I understand U do.

And who is the ''apostle to whom the scripture is rehearsed''?

Rasool is messenger, I dont use apostle. The "pages" are rehearsed to ANYONE who raises to that level. Universal Law is made clear to the serious student. We all have within us the potential to be a prophet and messenger. MOst will never make it to prophet, but many are messengers. Anytime you deliver truth to someone, you are a messenger(only during the act of delivering).

Again, I think u misunderstood my question. I didnt ask how u define 'rasul'.
What I asked was, who is the 'rasul/apostle' that God is referring to in that particular verse?

Since "quran' does not mean 114 chaptered book, then no. However the God teh TRUTH if from the God and if the 114 chapters are Truth, then it is from the God. If there is a specific verse you want to discuss, please bring it foward.

And now that you are convinced, 'the verses in Quran' are from God to mankind, How do u think it was conveyed by God?
To who and How? And why?

And,

101 A.L.R. These are the ayats of the Book of Wisdom.
22 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
141 A. L. R. A Book which We have revealed unto thee, in order that thou mightest lead mankind out of the depths of darkness into light - by the leave of their Lord - to the Way of (Him) the Exalted in power, worthy of all praise!-
262 These are verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.
312 These are Verses of the Wise Book,-
434 And verily, it is in the Mother of the Book, in Our Presence, high (in dignity), full of wisdom.

Why would God refer it to as the 'book'?
Kitaab means book.

159 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
If Quran is not a book, What is Allah talking of guarding?

And why is Allah referring the message as a book 'Quran'?

151 A. L. R. These are the Ayats of Revelation,- of a Qur'an that makes things clear.
Aliflamra tilka ayatu alkitabi waquranin mubeen

482 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.
Afala yatadabbaroona alqurana walaw kana min AAindi ghayri Allahi lawajadoo feehi ikhtilafan katheera

9111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise) they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded that is the achievement supreme.
Inna Allaha ishtara mina almumineena anfusahum waamwalahum bianna lahumu aljannata yuqatiloona fee sabeeli Allahi fayaqtuloona wayuqtaloona waAAdan AAalayhi haqqan fee attawrati walinjeeli walqurani waman awfa biAAahdihi mina Allahi fastabshiroo bibayAAikumu allathee bayaAAtum bihi wathalika huwa alfawzu alAAatheem

123 We do relate unto thee the most beautiful of stories, in that We reveal to thee this (portion of the) Qur'an before this, thou too was among those who knew it not.
Nahnu naqussu AAalayka ahsana alqasasi bima awhayna ilayka hatha alqurana wain kunta min qablihi lamina alghafileen

2530 Then the Messenger will say "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."
Waqala arrasoolu ya rabbi inna qawmee ittakhathoo hatha alqurana mahjoora

4724 Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them?
Afala yatadabbaroona alqurana am AAala quloobin aqfaluha

And perhaps, u should reflect on these verses as well

552 It is He Who has taught the Qur'an.
AAallama alquran

271 These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes (things) clear;
Taseen tilka ayatu alqurani wakitabin mubeen

8521 Nay, this is a Glorious Qur'an,
Bal huwa quranun majeed
8522 (Inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved!
Fee lawhin mahfooth

Peace!

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Saladin,

IF1
The message points us to the signs of the universe, from the horizons to within our spirits. It does not tell us to remain focused inside 114 chapters.

Saladin
so thats a "no" ?

that sounds strange . the book that points us to so many things from horizon to within ourselves and covers so many topics , doesnt ever refer to itself ? it doesnt ever tell anything about itself ? it doesnt even tell what it's purpose is ?

even in its beginning , in surah baqrah , when the Quran says ?this is the book whereof there is no doubt(zalik al kitab la raib feeh)? ; the book is referring to itself , it is introducing itself . Quran itself is a book . why in the world would this book/kitab refer to some book/kitab(universe, u say) other than itself ?

Saladin, when the verse was revealed , there was no PHYSCIAL BOOK to point to and say "THIS". D According to the history you are going by, he verses were revealed from time to time, so there is no book called "quran" at the time to point to.

This is "UNIVERSAL LAW", wherein there is no doubt. The universe has no flaws, it works on strict laws.

Quote
i was talking about the 114 chaptered Quran . does it claim to be God's word ?

Since "quran' does not mean 114 chaptered book, then no. However the God teh TRUTH if from the God and if the 114 chapters are Truth, then it is from the God. If there is a specific verse you want to discuss, please bring it foward.

check out this article

Koran and Self-Reference http//members.aol.com/silence004/godel.htm

I will check it out and get back to you.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Jaxal,

The Quran CLEARLY referes to itself as a book. An honourable book at that. It calls itself the Quran. Quran referes to itself as a 'Book' called 'Quran'. I dont see how it can be any more simpler than that.

Its just as "simple" as God's "hand" and "face". Yes, kitaab means book, but the implication is Universal LAW. God is the subject and we are the objects in the ONE SENTENCE (uni verse).

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PM,

I will address your comment when I get home.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PM,

Again, I think u misunderstood my question. I didnt ask how u define 'rasul'.
What I asked was, who is the 'rasul/apostle' that God is referring to in that particular verse?

(981-) Those who rejected from the book's people and the takers of partners were not broken to pieces/separated until the evidence comes to them. A messenger from The God, he reads/recites cleaned writings. In it (are) maintained books (unchanging Laws). And those who were given the book(universal law) did not separate except from after what came to them (from) the evidence(life experience which verifies). And they were not instructed except to serve The God devoted to Him (in) the order (as) Unifiers, and they maintain the "salaa", and they bring forth the purification , and that (is) the maintained order.

The messenger is anyone who has recieved the understanding which can be verified through life experience and promotes it to others, therefore bringing evidence to the people. Please understand that this is a similitude, not the reading of a physical book, but the "reading" of LAW in the world.

And now that you are convinced, 'the verses in Quran' are from God to mankind, How do u think it was conveyed by God?
To who and How? And why?

This book (koran) appears to have been written by an enlightened person to help people understand the God's Law. We state it is from the God when we validate its evidence. Were it not from the God we would have found much disagreement. From time to time there are people in mankind that grasp "the book(universal law)" and they teach it to mankind. They understand that it is not from "them", but from The WHOLE. Its a whole other way of thinking, far from this lowly seperated thinking of this world. The message is intuited from within, where the God is closer than the jugular vein. We all have this potential.

Quote
101 A.L.R. These are the ayats of the Book of Wisdom.

(101) Alr, Those are the wise book's signs

22 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.

(22) That, the Book(universal law), no doubt in it, (it is) guidance to the conscious.

141 A. L. R. A Book which We have revealed unto thee, in order that thou mightest lead mankind out of the depths of darkness into light - by the leave of their Lord - to the Way of (Him) the Exalted in power, worthy of all praise!-

(141) Alr, Universal law We descended it upon you, to bring the people out from the darknesses to the light with their Lord's permission, to the path of the mighty, the exalted.

262 These are verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.

(262) Those are the signs of The clear/evident Universal law.

434 And verily, it is in the Mother of the Book, in Our Presence, high (in dignity), full of wisdom.

Why would God refer it to as the 'book'?

(434) And surely in the Books' mother at Us (the Origin of universal law is God) ...

Kitaab means book.

Yes, but it implies the universe, the Gods words never run out.

159 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
If Quran is not a book, What is Allah talking of guarding?

(159) Surely We, We descended the reminder, and surely We (are) for it, protectors/guards.

The Law is unchanging, no matter how pious a person is and how much he prays, if he walks off a building the LAW of gravity will pull him to his death.

And why is Allah referring the message as a book 'Quran'?

I dont see the word "message" nor "quran" in that verse.

151 A. L. R. These are the Ayats of Revelation,- of a Qur'an that makes things clear.
Aliflamra tilka ayatu alkitabi waquranin mubeen

(151) Alr, those are The Book's signs (signs of universal law), and a clear/evident reading.

I'll finish the rest tommorrow.