the reading(quran) is not the title of any book
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Peace be upon you Saladin,
i believe that all the verses that Jaxal has posted refer to the Quran . but i was asking your opinion . does it ever refer to itself ?
The message points us to the signs of the universe, from the horizons to within our spirits. It does not tell us to remain focused inside 114 chapters.
i was talking about the 114 chaptered Quran . does it claim to be God's word ?
Since "quran' does not mean 114 chaptered book, then no. However the God teh TRUTH if from the God and if the 114 chapters are Truth, then it is from the God. If there is a specific verse you want to discuss, please bring it foward.
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salam idolfree .
Peace be upon you Saladin,
i believe that all the verses that Jaxal has posted refer to the Quran . but i was asking your opinion . does it ever refer to itself ?
The message points us to the signs of the universe, from the horizons to within our spirits. It does not tell us to remain focused inside 114 chapters.
so thats a "no" ?
that sounds strange . the book that points us to so many things from horizon to within ourselves and covers so many topics , doesnt ever refer to itself ? it doesnt ever tell anything about itself ? it doesnt even tell what it's purpose is ?
even in its beginning , in surah baqrah , when the Quran says ?this is the book whereof there is no doubt(zalik al kitab la raib feeh)? ; the book is referring to itself , it is introducing itself . Quran itself is a book . why in the world would this book/kitab refer to some book/kitab(universe, u say) other than itself ?
i was talking about the 114 chaptered Quran . does it claim to be God's word ?
Since "quran' does not mean 114 chaptered book, then no. However the God teh TRUTH if from the God and if the 114 chapters are Truth, then it is from the God. If there is a specific verse you want to discuss, please bring it foward.
check out this article
Koran and Self-Reference http//members.aol.com/silence004/godel.htm
salam.
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Hi idolfree1,
981 Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, were not going to depart (from their ways) until there should come to them Clear Evidence,-
982 An apostle from Allah, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy
983 Wherein are laws (or decrees) right and straight.
984 Nor did the People of the Book make schisms, until after there came to them Clear Evidence.
985 And they have been commanded no more than this To worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being true (in faith); to establish regular prayer; and to practise regular charity; and that is the Religion Right and Straight.
986 Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.
987 Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures.
988 Their reward is with Allah. Gardens of Eternity, beneath which rivers flow; they will dwell therein for ever; Allah well pleased with them, and they with Him all this for such as fear their Lord and Cherisher.
Who is ''commanding'' us in the above verses?It is the God who "commands", but dont take "command" to literally, if teh God were to "command", then we would all be robots, but we have free will, to choose to follow the "commands". It is Universal Law that beats us up when we do wrong, and this LAW was set in place by the The All Powerful.
Idol free1, IF only u read the whole verse where 'command' is used, U would realise what is being commanded by Allah, to those who wish to see the truth.
Who said anything about not having free will ?
'Religion/faith/belief is also a matter of choice for man. There is no compulsion in religion.Anyways, What I asked u was, do u recognise these verses are from God?
And I understand U do.And who is the ''apostle to whom the scripture is rehearsed''?
Rasool is messenger, I dont use apostle. The "pages" are rehearsed to ANYONE who raises to that level. Universal Law is made clear to the serious student. We all have within us the potential to be a prophet and messenger. MOst will never make it to prophet, but many are messengers. Anytime you deliver truth to someone, you are a messenger(only during the act of delivering).
Again, I think u misunderstood my question. I didnt ask how u define 'rasul'.
What I asked was, who is the 'rasul/apostle' that God is referring to in that particular verse?Since "quran' does not mean 114 chaptered book, then no. However the God teh TRUTH if from the God and if the 114 chapters are Truth, then it is from the God. If there is a specific verse you want to discuss, please bring it foward.
And now that you are convinced, 'the verses in Quran' are from God to mankind, How do u think it was conveyed by God?
To who and How? And why?And,
101 A.L.R. These are the ayats of the Book of Wisdom.
22 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
141 A. L. R. A Book which We have revealed unto thee, in order that thou mightest lead mankind out of the depths of darkness into light - by the leave of their Lord - to the Way of (Him) the Exalted in power, worthy of all praise!-
262 These are verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.
312 These are Verses of the Wise Book,-
434 And verily, it is in the Mother of the Book, in Our Presence, high (in dignity), full of wisdom.Why would God refer it to as the 'book'?
Kitaab means book.159 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
If Quran is not a book, What is Allah talking of guarding?And why is Allah referring the message as a book 'Quran'?
151 A. L. R. These are the Ayats of Revelation,- of a Qur'an that makes things clear.
Aliflamra tilka ayatu alkitabi waquranin mubeen482 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.
Afala yatadabbaroona alqurana walaw kana min AAindi ghayri Allahi lawajadoo feehi ikhtilafan katheera9111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise) they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded that is the achievement supreme.
Inna Allaha ishtara mina almumineena anfusahum waamwalahum bianna lahumu aljannata yuqatiloona fee sabeeli Allahi fayaqtuloona wayuqtaloona waAAdan AAalayhi haqqan fee attawrati walinjeeli walqurani waman awfa biAAahdihi mina Allahi fastabshiroo bibayAAikumu allathee bayaAAtum bihi wathalika huwa alfawzu alAAatheem123 We do relate unto thee the most beautiful of stories, in that We reveal to thee this (portion of the) Qur'an before this, thou too was among those who knew it not.
Nahnu naqussu AAalayka ahsana alqasasi bima awhayna ilayka hatha alqurana wain kunta min qablihi lamina alghafileen2530 Then the Messenger will say "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."
Waqala arrasoolu ya rabbi inna qawmee ittakhathoo hatha alqurana mahjoora4724 Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them?
Afala yatadabbaroona alqurana am AAala quloobin aqfaluhaAnd perhaps, u should reflect on these verses as well
552 It is He Who has taught the Qur'an.
AAallama alquran271 These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes (things) clear;
Taseen tilka ayatu alqurani wakitabin mubeen8521 Nay, this is a Glorious Qur'an,
Bal huwa quranun majeed
8522 (Inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved!
Fee lawhin mahfoothPeace!
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Peace be upon you Saladin,
IF1
The message points us to the signs of the universe, from the horizons to within our spirits. It does not tell us to remain focused inside 114 chapters.Saladin
so thats a "no" ?that sounds strange . the book that points us to so many things from horizon to within ourselves and covers so many topics , doesnt ever refer to itself ? it doesnt ever tell anything about itself ? it doesnt even tell what it's purpose is ?
even in its beginning , in surah baqrah , when the Quran says ?this is the book whereof there is no doubt(zalik al kitab la raib feeh)? ; the book is referring to itself , it is introducing itself . Quran itself is a book . why in the world would this book/kitab refer to some book/kitab(universe, u say) other than itself ?
Saladin, when the verse was revealed , there was no PHYSCIAL BOOK to point to and say "THIS". D According to the history you are going by, he verses were revealed from time to time, so there is no book called "quran" at the time to point to.
This is "UNIVERSAL LAW", wherein there is no doubt. The universe has no flaws, it works on strict laws.
Quote
i was talking about the 114 chaptered Quran . does it claim to be God's word ?Since "quran' does not mean 114 chaptered book, then no. However the God teh TRUTH if from the God and if the 114 chapters are Truth, then it is from the God. If there is a specific verse you want to discuss, please bring it foward.
check out this article
Koran and Self-Reference http//members.aol.com/silence004/godel.htm
I will check it out and get back to you.
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Peace be upon you Jaxal,
The Quran CLEARLY referes to itself as a book. An honourable book at that. It calls itself the Quran. Quran referes to itself as a 'Book' called 'Quran'. I dont see how it can be any more simpler than that.
Its just as "simple" as God's "hand" and "face". Yes, kitaab means book, but the implication is Universal LAW. God is the subject and we are the objects in the ONE SENTENCE (uni verse).
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Peace be upon you PM,
I will address your comment when I get home.
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Peace be upon you PM,
Again, I think u misunderstood my question. I didnt ask how u define 'rasul'.
What I asked was, who is the 'rasul/apostle' that God is referring to in that particular verse?(981-) Those who rejected from the book's people and the takers of partners were not broken to pieces/separated until the evidence comes to them. A messenger from The God, he reads/recites cleaned writings. In it (are) maintained books (unchanging Laws). And those who were given the book(universal law) did not separate except from after what came to them (from) the evidence(life experience which verifies). And they were not instructed except to serve The God devoted to Him (in) the order (as) Unifiers, and they maintain the "salaa", and they bring forth the purification , and that (is) the maintained order.
The messenger is anyone who has recieved the understanding which can be verified through life experience and promotes it to others, therefore bringing evidence to the people. Please understand that this is a similitude, not the reading of a physical book, but the "reading" of LAW in the world.
And now that you are convinced, 'the verses in Quran' are from God to mankind, How do u think it was conveyed by God?
To who and How? And why?This book (koran) appears to have been written by an enlightened person to help people understand the God's Law. We state it is from the God when we validate its evidence. Were it not from the God we would have found much disagreement. From time to time there are people in mankind that grasp "the book(universal law)" and they teach it to mankind. They understand that it is not from "them", but from The WHOLE. Its a whole other way of thinking, far from this lowly seperated thinking of this world. The message is intuited from within, where the God is closer than the jugular vein. We all have this potential.
Quote
101 A.L.R. These are the ayats of the Book of Wisdom.(101) Alr, Those are the wise book's signs
22 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
(22) That, the Book(universal law), no doubt in it, (it is) guidance to the conscious.
141 A. L. R. A Book which We have revealed unto thee, in order that thou mightest lead mankind out of the depths of darkness into light - by the leave of their Lord - to the Way of (Him) the Exalted in power, worthy of all praise!-
(141) Alr, Universal law We descended it upon you, to bring the people out from the darknesses to the light with their Lord's permission, to the path of the mighty, the exalted.
262 These are verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.
(262) Those are the signs of The clear/evident Universal law.
434 And verily, it is in the Mother of the Book, in Our Presence, high (in dignity), full of wisdom.
Why would God refer it to as the 'book'?
(434) And surely in the Books' mother at Us (the Origin of universal law is God) ...
Kitaab means book.
Yes, but it implies the universe, the Gods words never run out.
159 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
If Quran is not a book, What is Allah talking of guarding?(159) Surely We, We descended the reminder, and surely We (are) for it, protectors/guards.
The Law is unchanging, no matter how pious a person is and how much he prays, if he walks off a building the LAW of gravity will pull him to his death.
And why is Allah referring the message as a book 'Quran'?
I dont see the word "message" nor "quran" in that verse.
151 A. L. R. These are the Ayats of Revelation,- of a Qur'an that makes things clear.
Aliflamra tilka ayatu alkitabi waquranin mubeen(151) Alr, those are The Book's signs (signs of universal law), and a clear/evident reading.
I'll finish the rest tommorrow.
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Peace be upon you Saladin,
IF1
The message points us to the signs of the universe, from the horizons to within our spirits. It does not tell us to remain focused inside 114 chapters.Saladin
so thats a "no" ?that sounds strange . the book that points us to so many things from horizon to within ourselves and covers so many topics , doesnt ever refer to itself ? it doesnt ever tell anything about itself ? it doesnt even tell what it's purpose is ?
even in its beginning , in surah baqrah , when the Quran says ?this is the book whereof there is no doubt(zalik al kitab la raib feeh)? ; the book is referring to itself , it is introducing itself . Quran itself is a book . why in the world would this book/kitab refer to some book/kitab(universe, u say) other than itself ?
Saladin, when the verse was revealed , there was no PHYSCIAL BOOK to point to and say "THIS". D According to the history you are going by, he verses were revealed from time to time, so there is no book called "quran" at the time to point to.
salam.
the verses were part of the book . and the Quran,the book was being compiled . and it deosnt have to be a PHYSICAL book that we can hold in our hands . we can also read the Quran on the PC , right ? "THIS" would refer to the book which was being revealed .and now that the 114 chaptered book is complete , "THIS" can easily refer to the it .
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Kitaab means book.
Yes, but it implies the universe, the Gods words never run out.
salam.
howcome ? the universe will end one day , but God's words still won't run out ."God's words never run out" doesnt change the fact that Quran is THE kitaab sent by him.
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The verse is clearly refering to the Quran as a book. 'KITAB'. Not law. Well, i would have pasted the arabic verse but i dont know how to get the arabic verse. Can anyone tell me how i can copy paste the arabic verses?
http//quran.muslim-web.com/
peace
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Hello
Al Quran is the name of that very book in our Hand
It can not mean "Reading" becaause Reading means "" and that is the official Arabic word for it in the public language style and in the professional Arabic
"Al Quran" is 500% a name of an entity and is a unique Arabic word that is used specifically to the Quran and NEVER EVER WAS USED WITH ANY OTHER BOOK
Also the word "Reading" "" WAS NEVER USED IN THE QURAN here is the two words next to each other
"" pronounced Qira'a and means Reading
"" pronounced Qur'an and Means "Qur'an" because it is a Name and does not exist as a word in the Arabic vocabulary as suchcan you spot the difference
Like my name, you will not see it in the dictionary, however if the word has been added to the Arabic dictionary "due to its popularity in the Arabic world" then it should be translated into Arabic as "Qur'an" "The name of the Islamic scripture"
The one who chose the name "Al Quran" is His Author and He told us it is A BOOK, now to reject that then they are simply rejecting Allah
The argument of refering to it as such while it was not finished yet has really no merit
for example if it took me 5 years to write a book, during all these years I can refer to it as a book, why not?
Allah said in the Quran that His Quran will be revealed slowley anyway
peace be with All
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SaLaM Ahmed
Cheers for that bro.
no worries bro, we are only after the truth and nothing but the truth
peace be with you
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Peace be upon you Lote tree,
idolfree1 wrote
The universe has no ends.
Where did you get that information from?
I'll put it this way. We verify that no one has found the ends yet. D
...erm thats not verification is it? Verification is 2+2=4. That is verification.
What you are saying is same as scientist saying we don't know anything about what happened before the Big Bang!Search for OBJECTIVE truth continues Kyle... wink
For you info - OBJECITVE science says Universe had a begining...if so then it will either expand forever or come to Big Crunch - the end of the Universe. But these are just theories, models of the Universe, they can only be provisional...and therefore all our scientific truths can be provisional - it can never be absolute -)
Regards,
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Peace be upon you Saladin,
I want to concentrate on your last statement, as it reveals something important.
and now that the 114 chaptered book is complete , "THIS" can easily refer to the it .
By the law of relativity, this means that BEFORE the 114 chaptered book was completed , it was DIFFICULT to refer "THIS" to the "114 chapter book". Of course it would be difficult, and thats the point. Its like me giving you a page from the 114 chapter book and saying "THIS is the book, in it....", but all you have is a page! D
... But at the very same time, we ALL have the universe all around us , but most are sleep, the AWE of creation has dulled to us. Al Kitaab is Universal LAW, that we must all read and study. Surely the God has not created all this in vain.
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Peace be upon you Lote Tree,
...erm thats not verification is it? Verification is 2+2=4. That is verification.
Yes, and as many times as you add 2+2 and get 4, the same amount of times you will look out into space and never find an end. This is what is verifyable from our perspective. Just like sticks turning to snakes. You can throw sticks all day, they will never turn into snakes in the physical world. But some might expect that one day we will find an end to the universe, i guess the vision is some kind of eggshell, but what would be on the other side of the "MATTER" (what else can DEFINE/LIMIT but matter?). Similarly, some think one day sticks might turn into snakes because the God needs extra proof to convince his creation.
What you are saying is same as scientist saying we don't know anything about what happened before the Big Bang!
Incorrect, there had to have been some bodiless intelligence that WILLED the ENERGY/MATTER to expand and solidify into forms, ALL based on a strict mathematical pattern (see periodic table of elements for the pattern) which gives evidence of intelligence.
Search for OBJECTIVE truth continues Kyle...
Always
For you info - OBJECITVE science says Universe had a begining
Thats not objective science, that is someones opinion. As I explained above, the mathematics gives evidence of an intellegence before the so called Big Bang. All that can be induced is that there is a constand ebb and flow, out and in- just like our breath(inSPIRation, exPIRe), based on a bodiless intelligence that is WILLING upon Energy/Matter according to a strict LAW (mathematics).
...if so then it will either expand forever or come to Big Crunch - the end of the Universe.
What you are calling "End", was the same state as teh "beginning" you are trying to defend, so what in life observances would make you think the same intelligence that Expanded teh energy/matter the first time wont do it again? Doint we see life and death constantly? What other observation could lead your thinking that it would all end at the beginning?
But these are just theories, models of the Universe, they can only be provisional...and therefore all our scientific truths can be provisional - it can never be absolute
We work in the realm of laws. I am saying Energy has been proven to not be destroyed, this is objectively proven. You (or scientists you are referencing) are saying that there will be an end, no objective proof can back that statement, do you see the difference?
I can easily state that one day 2+2 will NOT equal 4, is that any different from saying one day the universe will come to an end, alhough it never has , just like 2+2 has never come out as anything but 4. (forget about numbers being abstract concepts for a moment)
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salam.
Peace be upon you Saladin,
I want to concentrate on your last statement, as it reveals something important.
and now that the 114 chaptered book is complete , "THIS" can easily refer to the it .
By the law of relativity, this means that BEFORE the 114 chaptered book was completed , it was DIFFICULT to refer "THIS" to the "114 chapter book". Of course it would be difficult, and thats the point. Its like me giving you a page from the 114 chapter book and saying "THIS is the book, in it....", but all you have is a page! D
even back when Quran was not completed , "THIS" could refer to the kitab that was being compiled , being written down ,or being recited to the nabi by gabriel . even if it was a single page , it was a kitab .
just what Ahmed said
The argument of refering to it as such while it was not finished yet has really no merit
for example if it took me 5 years to write a book, during all these years I can refer to it as a book, why not?
... But at the very same time, we ALL have the universe all around us , but most are sleep, the AWE of creation has dulled to us. Al Kitaab is Universal LAW, that we must all read and study. Surely the God has not created all this in vain.
the Quran is now complete . it has reached its full size . on the other hand , the universe is expanding as we speak . it has not reached its full size yet . it is not complete . so according to your arguement , "THIS" cannot refer to the universe .
no offense , but this one , alongwith your previous("Gods never runs out of words") arguements carry no weight .
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Peace be upon you Lote Tree,
...erm thats not verification is it? Verification is 2+2=4. That is verification.
Yes, and as many times as you add 2+2 and get 4, the same amount of times you will look out into space and never find an end.
..erm but we can say 2+2=4 always...we don't have to continually look up to space and continually revise our model of the Universe do we?
But we are continually revising our model of the Universe. The more knowlege we accumulate the better model we will built.You said Universe has no end - that is not verification chap - however you write it. The truth is you and I don't know only you claim that Universe has no end. And not knowig is not verification wink best answer is and the humble answer is I don't know if the Universe has no ends or begining.
Just like sticks turning to snakes. You can throw sticks all day, they will never turn into snakes in the physical world.
That is irrelevant to your statement that Universe has no end. Simply you don't know that. You only claim that you do.
But some might expect that one day we will find an end to the universe, i guess the vision is some kind of eggshell, but what would be on the other side of the "MATTER" (what else can DEFINE/LIMIT but matter?).
We only have models of the Universe. We know nothing for sure and our model only lasts until observational evidence says its false.
Incorrect, there had to have been some bodiless intelligence that WILLED the ENERGY/MATTER to expand and solidify into forms, ALL based on a strict mathematical pattern (see periodic table of elements for the pattern) which gives evidence of intelligence.
There is not OBJECTIVE PROOF of this, even mathematics breaks down at the moment of the Big Bang. So mathematics is not sacred.
Search for OBJECTIVE truth continues Kyle...
Always
Ditto! Chap Ditto!
For you info - OBJECITVE science says Universe had a begining
Thats not objective science, that is someones opinion.
Universe having a begining is based on scientific model. So this model can be tested against observation. Thats how science works. And so far cosmic background radiation is the only observable evidence of the Universe having a begining. This is not opinion of some individual but based on scientific principles.
As I explained above, the mathematics gives evidence of an intellegence before the so called Big Bang.
No. Mathematics breaks down at the point of Big Bang!
All that can be induced is that there is a constand ebb and flow, out and in- just like our breath(inSPIRation, exPIRe), based on a bodiless intelligence that is WILLING upon Energy/Matter according to a strict LAW (mathematics).
That can be a matter of opinion since mathematics breaks down at the point of the Big Bang?
What you are calling "End", was the same state as teh "beginning" you are trying to defend, so what in life observances would make you think the same intelligence that Expanded teh energy/matter the first time wont do it again?
See above.
Doint we see life and death constantly? What other observation could lead your thinking that it would all end at the beginning?
Who said ending? - Universe could be cyclic?
We work in the realm of laws. I am saying Energy has been proven to not be destroyed, this is objectively proven.
Yes, that is so. So how does that prove Bodiless Intelligence? Where is the objective proof of this?
You (or scientists you are referencing) are saying that there will be an end, no objective proof can back that statement, do you see the difference?
I think you did not understand me. We have only Models of the Universe.
And some models provide some obserable evidence of its validity - but these are not absolutes since new observation can destroy the model. No scientific truths are absolute. They are always provisional.Regards,
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Peace be upon you Saladin,
even back when Quran was not completed , "THIS" could refer to the kitab that was being compiled , being written down ,or being recited to the nabi by gabriel . even if it was a single page , it was a kitab .
If that was the case, then why do we see instance of AL kitaab. Certinaly one page compared to a group of pages is not the same thing. Only one of them can be THE Kitaab.
So if we are reading about kitaab and there is no completed book, then your understanding has a serious flaw.
just what Ahmed said
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The argument of refering to it as such while it was not finished yet has really no meritfor example if it took me 5 years to write a book, during all these years I can refer to it as a book, why not?
I doubt you would look at a your first page and say this is "THE book"(al kitaab). You would say "part of my book" , not THE book. How can you look at something unfinished in say "in it is guidance , sure without doubt". If I stop you right then and there, and wanted to get THE BOOK, could I do it?
idolfree1 wrote
... But at the very same time, we ALL have the universe all around us , but most are sleep, the AWE of creation has dulled to us. Al Kitaab is Universal LAW, that we must all read and study. Surely the God has not created all this in vain.the Quran is now complete . it has reached its full size . on the other hand , the universe is expanding as we speak . it has not reached its full size yet . it is not complete . so according to your arguement , "THIS" cannot refer to the universe .
The laws of the universe are complete. Wether the very first man, or anyone today, if you jump from a building, the LAW will pull you to the cement below.
no offense , but this one , alongwith your previous("Gods never runs out of words") arguements carry no weight .
No offense taken, we are reasoning, thats all. Lets continue.