What does 'islam' mean to you?

sawtooth

What I mean about individual paths does not mean that we DO things differently as much as how we get to doing those things. Some people need "god" to tell them that giving to the poor is good. Personally I think empathy is enough to tell me that.

My personal path has lead me all over the place to all kinds of people. It has lead me through various belief systems and faiths as well as different cultures and traditions. I find that my path lies very much in the stories and experiences of others. I seek out these stories and reach to learn from them. in seeking out those stories I gain the knowledge of experience. Others find their path and although we may end up in the same place, we take very different ways to get there

Some here may choose a path of religion, or complete lack of, and some even find their path lies in their chosen carreer choices. This is why, although I will discuss and debate certain aspects of religious philosophy, I will not debate the right or wrongs of religion. It is not my place to say what is right or wrong for other people (except in the few cases where I see choices becoming self destructive or destructive to others.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Sawtooth,

What I mean about individual paths does not mean that we DO things differently as much as how we get to doing those things. Some people need "god" to tell them that giving to the poor is good. Personally I think empathy is enough to tell me that.

Sure, but what if "empathy" was one of the hidden forces of the God, and that your peaceful mindset has caused that hidden force to prostrate to you, therefore carrying out the correct response? (giving to the poor)

All you are saying is that the attribute of the God Empathy told me to feed the poor.

My personal path has lead me all over the place to all kinds of people. It has lead me through various belief systems and faiths as well as different cultures and traditions.

Your path is like any others, we wander around until we awaken and SEE and start to verify. There is no argument over objectivity.

I find that my path lies very much in the stories and experiences of others. I seek out these stories and reach to learn from them. in seeking out those stories I gain the knowledge of experience. Others find their path and although we may end up in the same place, we take very different ways to get there

The collecting of the pieces of the puzzle is the same. We may play for different teams and have a different lineup, but we are all playing football. You are viewing this from the life of this world, where things are seperated (different teams), I am trying to show you the football game itself. Its the same game, the same path to victory, even if we play different teams.

Some here may choose a path of religion, or complete lack of, and some even find their path lies in their chosen carreer choices. This is why, although I will discuss and debate certain aspects of religious philosophy, I will not debate the right or wrongs of religion. It is not my place to say what is right or wrong for other people (except in the few cases where I see choices becoming self destructive or destructive to others.

Yes, it is your right to deliver the message of correct behavior. It is not your right to FORCE it on others, but it is your right to proclaim correct behavior based on objective LAW. And this is why you felt compelled to add the exception

sawtooth

Hello Idol. I am confused here. I am not sure but you seem you believe that I somehow have stated that I do not believe in God? Quite the contrary actually. I am an extremely spiritual person who has a deep and very strong beliefe in the creator or "God". I am simply without a religion to attach the beliefe to. I have found my path to the creator DESPITE religion

mquran

Kyle It happens all the time. The God is not some object out there whom we will physcically stand in front of. How can you stand in front of The Omnipresent? No, this is a metaphor about what happens when we make a choice in life and how we will reap what we sow (proper judgment).

Kyle, I'm sure you agree that physical death is a reality and not a metaphor. If so, how do you take this passage

O mankind! if ye have a doubt about al-baath (the so-called resurrection), (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).

So if 'judgement' is an everyday thing, why does God point us to the biological phenomena of creation to build the analogy?

Also, how do you take this passage

But those endued with knowledge and faith will say "Indeed ye did tarry, within Allah's Decree, to the Day of Resurrection (ilaa yaumil baath), and this is the Day of Resurrection but ye - ye were not aware!" (30/56)

If judgement is immediate, the word 'ilaa' or 'towards' wouldn't be used.

Kyle, I'm sorry but I really think you're stretching it a bit here. It seems that the book's no longer your criteria being replaced by these fanciful notions. No offense.

mquran

Hello Idol. I am confused here. I am not sure but you seem you believe that I somehow have stated that I do not believe in God? Quite the contrary actually. I am an extremely spiritual person who has a deep and very strong beliefe in the creator or "God". I am simply without a religion to attach the beliefe to. I have found my path to the creator DESPITE religion

Sawtooth, some questions for you

You say you believe in God, will you allow God to legislate your life?
If your answer is 'yes' , then how will you go about seeking this legislation ?
If your answer to (2) is 'my heart tells me what to do', then what would you say to other human beings who also say the same ?
If your answer to (1) is no, what role does God play in your life? Is almighty God only fit for an abstract out there existence?

thank you for your attention.

Leyla

Salaam!

@mquran
Hey, you?re back at free minds. That?s good. You see, a lot of people are happy that you are back to the discussions here.

@mquran, idolfree1

Well, well, I would first suggest that we need to know what kind of quranic concept we mean when talking about the `day of judgement?.

Most often this is taken as a phrase translating the yaum id d?n, like in the first surah.
However, imho, I don?t think that yaum id d?n is the same as yaumil baath.
I would also suppose that there is a qualitative difference to the expression talking about the yaumil akhir.

All these terms have an interrelated quality, I would say. All these terms are frequently translated into English as `judgement day?.
But they are not the same and they are not used that way in the quran.

Talking about idolfree1?s hypothesis about a judgement day happening every time I would agree when it comes to yaum id d?n. I would translate this term as the period? (or maybe even flow? somehow) of the system of Allah, with d?n also having side meanings related to legislation, judicial rulings etc..
This period stretches across everything. It is the `flow? that we can not escape.

The term yaumil akhir definitely talks about termination and consequences, I would say. It is the las period? or the period of what follows?.Different from yaum id d?n. When the quran talks about believing in the akhirat? I take this to mean having conviction of the fact that this life and the actions therein are terminated but have consequences and are not just without responsibility?.
To believe this, it does not matter much how you believe this. If through karma or resurrection. You know that you have responsibilities. You don?t live just for the moment.

Then, with yaumil baath I strongly agree with mquran. This is definitely a severe future event for each of us. The quran is definit here.
I see no reason to doubt that this event will happen.
When you think about your current existence, it coming from supposed nothing is equally miraculous. If I would doubt in the possibility of resurrection I could also doubt in the possibility of creation. That?s what Allah tells us.
However, we don?t know exactly how resurrection will happen and proceed. We know that it is at least as real, no, more real than this creation. But what else?
The quran teaches us that paradise and hell are unlike this world.
Terms related to resurrection have to be understood with this in mind.

This world? does not only mean materia. It also means time. Modern physical thinking has found out a lot of interesting things with regards to time that one should study when interested in the concepts of ay?m in the quran. One of these things is that tiem is never absolute, it is relative, as we all probably know. We should also take this in mind when talking about a future event? of resurrection?. I am pretty sure of the reality of that future event?, it will be that way in the timed frame of our experience.
But that does not mean that from a certain angle it does not happen now? as well. Ok, I know, modern higher physics may change its opinion again, we don?t know. The quran itself is a better criterion than changing science. But it would be still worth thinking about the relativeness of time? when studying the ay?m and maybe taking this as a clue to find some new things from the quran itself.

Bye,

Leyla

sawtooth

Hello Idol. I am confused here. I am not sure but you seem you believe that I somehow have stated that I do not believe in God? Quite the contrary actually. I am an extremely spiritual person who has a deep and very strong beliefe in the creator or "God". I am simply without a religion to attach the beliefe to. I have found my path to the creator DESPITE religion

Sawtooth, some questions for you

You say you believe in God, will you allow God to legislate your life?
If your answer is 'yes' , then how will you go about seeking this legislation ?
If your answer to (2) is 'my heart tells me what to do', then what would you say to other human beings who also say the same ?
If your answer to (1) is no, what role does God play in your life? Is almighty God only fit for an abstract out there existence?

thank you for your attention.

Hmm, I am not sure god "legislates" my life. More like offers guidance and clues which all exist within creation, at least for me. I FEEL the creator in my heart, I see it in it's creation. I believe if the creator gave me free will, I should use it. It is in seeking that we find wisdom and to seek one MUST make use of free will

There is a fabulous movie out there called "The Power of One" that says that any question you have can be answered in nature if you know what question to ask and where to look for the answer. I believe it stars Stephan Dorf, if I recall correctly. I would HIGHLY suggest anyone rent it. It also dealls very profoundly, with the various forms of prejudice that have existed in South Africa.

The creator exists within every action I take. From my first breath to my last, as well as in everything I see, touch taste and experience

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Leyla, all,

Hey, you?re back at free minds. That?s good. You see, a lot of people are happy that you are back to the discussions here.

Thank you. Very nice of you to say.

Well, well, I would first suggest that we need to know what kind of quranic concept we mean when talking about the `day of judgement?.

Huge study you've just opened up but it has to be done, agreed.

Most often this is taken as a phrase translating the yaum id d?n, like in the first surah.
However, imho, I don?t think that yaum id d?n is the same as yaumil baath.
I would also suppose that there is a qualitative difference to the expression talking about the yaumil akhir.

All these terms have an interrelated quality, I would say. All these terms are frequently translated into English as `judgement day?.
But they are not the same and they are not used that way in the quran.

Right, I agree.

Talking about idolfree1?s hypothesis about a judgement day happening every time I would agree when it comes to yaum id d?n. I would translate this term as the period? (or maybe even flow? somehow) of the system of Allah, with d?n also having side meanings related to legislation, judicial rulings etc..
This period stretches across everything. It is the `flow? that we can not escape.

I can't agree there because yaumiddeen is defined as

(It will be) the Day when no soul shall have power (to do) aught for another For the command, that Day, will be (wholly) for God (82/19)

So yaumiddeen is a specifc day in the future. Its not happening now and its occurence is a momentous event (see the whole of chapter 82, please).

The term yaumil akhir definitely talks about termination and consequences, I would say. It is the las period? or the period of what follows?.Different from yaum id d?n. When the quran talks about believing in the akhirat? I take this to mean having conviction of the fact that this life and the actions therein are terminated but have consequences and are not just without responsibility?.
To believe this, it does not matter much how you believe this. If through karma or resurrection. You know that you have responsibilities. You don?t live just for the moment.

This is certainly possible. Lets also remember that yaumil akhir is actually yaum AL-akhir. Allah himself is Al-akhir. Ukhra in arabic seems to also say 'other' so perhaps yaum al-akheer refers to another period where Allah's finality (in matters) becomes apparent.

This world? does not only mean materia. It also means time. Modern physical thinking has found out a lot of interesting things with regards to time that one should study when interested in the concepts of
ay?m in the quran.
One of these things is that tiem is never absolute, it is relative, as we all probably know.
We should also take this in mind when talking about a future event? of resurrection?. I am pretty sure of the reality of that future event?, it will be that way in the timed frame of our experience. But that does not mean that from a certain angle it does not happen now? as well.
Ok, I know, modern higher physics may change its opinion again, we don?t know. The quran itself is a better criterion than changing science.
But it would be still worth thinking about the `relativeness of time? when studying the ay?m and maybe taking this as a clue to find some new things from the quran itself.

I'm very much at the beginning of this. Please keep sharing your thoughts. I need to look into quranic concepts of time (such as 'ad-dahr' and 'al-asr' and 'marrat').

thanks and salam.

mquran

Hmm, I am not sure god "legislates" my life. More like offers guidance and clues which all exist within creation, at least for me. I FEEL the creator in my heart, I see it in it's creation. I believe if the creator gave me free will, I should use it. It is in seeking that we find wisdom and to seek one MUST make use of free will

Ok, great. What happens when 2 people like you are in conflict and the other guy says he's also being guided by God? Kinda like an Osama and Bush both being spoken to by God scenario ?

sawtooth

So in order to get through life in a good fashion, man is so incompetant that he needs a book of instructions? Are you aware of the level of illiteracy on a global scale? How on earth do you think man coexisted BEFORE organized religion? In most parts of the world he did just fine and did not encounter prejudice and warfar on a large scale UNLTIL religion came into play. Natural law is right in front of you with no abstract, no subjectivity. Just look at it. No interpretations needed, no conflict of interpretation, it just IS what it is. Now go look at al the religions of the world and it won't take long for you to notice that the basis of all of them is exactly the same as what you will observe in the only definate, without a doubt, rule book presented by the creator, creation itself?

Now like I said, some poeple choose religion for either personal reasons or cultural ones and that's fine. I am simply not on that particular path, although I don't doubt both choices will take us to the same eventual ends. Be kind to your fellow man, attempt tolerance of what is different, respect creation and appreciate the beauty provided in it, love as much as you can, learn to accept what you have learned to tolerate etc.... I don't need proof from any book, I don't need anyone to interpret it for me, I see it everyday and everyday I ammore in awe of it's brilliance. NATURE is the grandest miracle. Everyone finds their own means to the ultimate ends, and above all I try my hardest to respect THAT.

mquran

So in order to get through life in a good fashion, man is so incompetant that he needs a book of instructions?

Well, I think you'll agree that starvation, mass murder and oppression is hardly the mark of competence?

Are you aware of the level of illiteracy on a global scale? How on earth do you think man coexisted BEFORE organized religion? In most parts of the world he did just fine and did not encounter prejudice and warfar on a large scale UNLTIL religion came into play. Natural law is right in front of you with no abstract, no subjectivity. Just look at it. No interpretations needed, no conflict of interpretation, it just IS what it is. Now go look at al the religions of the world and it won't take long for you to notice that the basis of all of them is exactly the same as what you will observe in the only definate, without a doubt, rule book presented by the creator, creation itself?

I wasn't proposing a religion or indeed anything at all...yet. I am simply saying that your statement of belief is difficult to uphold once you encounter another sawtooth who's also guided by god yet does things in a totally opposite way to you.

Now like I said, some poeple choose religion for either personal reasons or cultural ones and that's fine. I am simply not on that particular path, although I don't doubt both choices will take us to the same eventual ends. Be kind to your fellow man, attempt tolerance of what is different, respect creation and appreciate the beauty provided in it, love as much as you can, learn to accept what you have learned to tolerate etc.... I don't need proof from any book, I don't need anyone to interpret it for me, I see it everyday and everyday I ammore in awe of it's brilliance. NATURE is the grandest miracle. Everyone finds their own means to the ultimate ends, and above all I try my hardest to respect THAT.

No one's trying to force any path on you. This was a discussion to see how well your approach stands up in a rhetorical situation. Your counter-response which includes 'organised religion' might be because you've misunderstood what al-quraan proposes for humankind. No way does 'organised religion' describe al-quraan's grand project.

Nature is the grandest miracle but does it propose values for humankind? For a few hundred years, European man was enslaving African man. Shall we take that 'nature' (if we lived in that particular period, that's what we would have seen) to mean that European man are, 'by nature' superior? Perhaps that's what led to the belief that African man was 3/5ths human. No less than an American president thought this. Nature is never a teacher, its a constant repository of signs. Humankind needs guidance, whether from inspiration or from a book.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you all,

MQ, glad you are back. Leyla has correctly elaborated on the issue which led me to say "yamn al deen" happens everyday. I will research the info you gave about that and respond.

Sawtooth, I was not saying you dont believe in the God, I was only discussing PATHS. I do agree with you that a book is not necessary. The God "speaks" to all mankind, but many are not tuned in properly. Objective evidence shows us the right path. Cause and effect of the God's laws teaches us.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you MQ,

I can't agree there because yaumiddeen is defined as

(It will be) the Day when no soul shall have power (to do) aught for another For the command, that Day, will be (wholly) for God (82/19)

If the God blesses someone, there is nothing the human can do about it, likewise for the "punishment". If I choose to jump off a building, no one can change the laws of gravity to keep me from falling to the ground.

So yaumiddeen is a specifc day in the future. Its not happening now and its occurence is a momentous event (see the whole of chapter 82, please).

I disagree, each day is momentous when we maintain our AWE of creation, and likewise, the time of judgement, (the effects of our choices) are momentous.

Can you imagine how a person would act if they treated each decision with the AWE of a momentous occasion? This is how it should be, but most of mankind are lulled to sleep, waiting for a FINAL Judgement, which there will be because there is cause and effect in all things, but we have to concentrate on the day to day judgements.

sawtooth

So in order to get through life in a good fashion, man is so incompetant that he needs a book of instructions?

Well, I think you'll agree that starvation, mass murder and oppression is hardly the mark of competence?

Are you aware of the level of illiteracy on a global scale? How on earth do you think man coexisted BEFORE organized religion? In most parts of the world he did just fine and did not encounter prejudice and warfar on a large scale UNLTIL religion came into play. Natural law is right in front of you with no abstract, no subjectivity. Just look at it. No interpretations needed, no conflict of interpretation, it just IS what it is. Now go look at al the religions of the world and it won't take long for you to notice that the basis of all of them is exactly the same as what you will observe in the only definate, without a doubt, rule book presented by the creator, creation itself?

I wasn't proposing a religion or indeed anything at all...yet. I am simply saying that your statement of belief is difficult to uphold once you encounter another sawtooth who's also guided by god yet does things in a totally opposite way to you.

Now like I said, some poeple choose religion for either personal reasons or cultural ones and that's fine. I am simply not on that particular path, although I don't doubt both choices will take us to the same eventual ends. Be kind to your fellow man, attempt tolerance of what is different, respect creation and appreciate the beauty provided in it, love as much as you can, learn to accept what you have learned to tolerate etc.... I don't need proof from any book, I don't need anyone to interpret it for me, I see it everyday and everyday I ammore in awe of it's brilliance. NATURE is the grandest miracle. Everyone finds their own means to the ultimate ends, and above all I try my hardest to respect THAT.

No one's trying to force any path on you. This was a discussion to see how well your approach stands up in a rhetorical situation. Your counter-response which includes 'organised religion' might be because you've misunderstood what al-quraan proposes for humankind. No way does 'organised religion' describe al-quraan's grand project.

Nature is the grandest miracle but does it propose values for humankind? For a few hundred years, European man was enslaving African man. Shall we take that 'nature' (if we lived in that particular period, that's what we would have seen) to mean that European man are, 'by nature' superior? Perhaps that's what led to the belief that African man was 3/5ths human. No less than an American president thought this. Nature is never a teacher, its a constant repository of signs. Humankind needs guidance, whether from inspiration or from a book.

OK so you are telling me that since religion came about there is no mass murder or starvation??????? Have you ever heard of Sudan? If someone is to do opposite as me, I wil respect it until it begins to hurt others. Hell I am quite friendly with a satanist. Surprises the hell out of me! As for africa, white men baught slaves from the BLACK men of africa that had captured other black en from other tribes for trade (so your homework. white men were not going to go to all the trouble of war and conquest to capture slaves for trade). Personally, thought i believe all men equal, I consider white man to be the least evolved in the spiritual sense. Show me a single example in nature that is a repository for sins. Show me a single instance where nature is NOT teaching us something useful. Really, I have never encountered such in my life.

Religion has "guided" humans right into war prejudice and genocide al over the name of who's ideal of god was right.

Isn't there something about Satan presenting himself as god to fool man? Many times I think that the holy books and teachings are just that. It is hard to imagine and god being happy to see his creation destroy eachother in his name.

Don't mind me I am just a peace junkie

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Sawtoth,

Don't mind me I am just a peace junkie

Thats an excellent addiction

mquran

OK so you are telling me that since religion came about there is no mass murder or starvation??????? Have you ever heard of Sudan? If someone is to do opposite as me, I wil respect it until it begins to hurt others. Hell I am quite friendly with a satanist. Surprises the hell out of me! As for africa, white men baught slaves from the BLACK men of africa that had captured other black en from other tribes for trade (so your homework. white men were not going to go to all the trouble of war and conquest to capture slaves for trade). Personally, thought i believe all men equal, I consider white man to be the least evolved in the spiritual sense. Show me a single example in nature that is a repository for sins. Show me a single instance where nature is NOT teaching us something useful. Really, I have never encountered such in my life.

Sorry but you've missed my point completely here. I'm no pro-religion in the manner by which you define religion. I'm pro-Al-Quraan which isn't a book which proposes 'religion' in the normative sense'. I say if the world is ruled by it's laws, salaam or loosely translated as 'peace' will reign.

As for the slave trade, I do realise that co-optation of African man was necessary, but the very fact it was achieved shows 'naturalists' that it is natural law. Natural law stems from empiricism failing to realise that humanity's percpetion is limited by time and space.

Events (what I call 'nature') are to me, merely confirmations of the predictions of humanity which Allah has provided. It can't teach me anything values-based unless values were imposed on it.

Remember that European man benefitted tremendously in the early years of the slave trade. According to your natural philosophy, slavery would then be good.

Religion has "guided" humans right into war prejudice and genocide al over the name of who's ideal of god was right.

Agreed. But is that the fault of religion or the misapproriation of nefarious men?

Isn't there something about Satan presenting himself as god to fool man? Many times I think that the holy books and teachings are just that. It is hard to imagine and god being happy to see his creation destroy eachother in his name.

It's strange to see how your 'natural instincts' has allowed to you project such misrepresentations into books. I suggest you read instead of conject, sir.

Don't mind me I am just a peace junkie

Can peace be achieved without vigilance?

mquran

Peace be upon you MQ,
If the God blesses someone, there is nothing the human can do about it, likewise for the "punishment". If I choose to jump off a building, no one can change the laws of gravity to keep me from falling to the ground.

Yes, but that's just one person. Chapter 82 is dealing with an event of a huge proporition. An entire change takes place and the command is pointed back to Allah.

I think you've limited your metaphorisation to just signs in the self, Kylester. Don't forget that signs also exist in the earth (51/20-21)

I disagree, each day is momentous when we maintain our AWE of creation, and likewise, the time of judgement, (the effects of our choices) are momentous.

That's great but al-quraan already has concepts for this taqwa and hamd.

Can you imagine how a person would act if they treated each decision with the AWE of a momentous occasion? This is how it should be, but most of mankind are lulled to sleep, waiting for a FINAL Judgement, which there will be because there is cause and effect in all things, but we have to concentrate on the day to day judgements

Observation of the world will tell you that not how it works. Warmongers are currently pillaging the world, buddy. Thier judgement hasn't come yet. Al-quraan says to follow inspiration and endure UNTIL the judgement of Allah comes (HATTA yahkum Allah.., 10/109)

So it appears to me that there's a time delay in the law of equal and opposite reaction.

sawtooth

You are mistakenly puting the actions of man into the subject of natural law. Because of free will and the ability to CHOOSE to go AGAINST nature, man cannot be jusdge by NATURAL law. We can certainly LEARN from it, but we are not necesarilly subject to it as teh rest of creation is. We are aparently LESS evolved

I don't begrudge you your faith in anything, but I have a personal philosophy that works quite well for me and affords me the same knowledge of the creator. Like I said, different means, same ends

Peace requires tolerance, acceptance, understanding and love. Not vigilance. Vigilance leads to aggression and in peace agression is dead.

mquran

You are mistakenly puting the actions of man into the subject of natural law. Because of free will and the ability to CHOOSE to go AGAINST nature, man cannot be jusdge by NATURAL law. We can certainly LEARN from it, but we are not necesarilly subject to it as teh rest of creation is. We are aparently LESS evolved

How do you know he's going against nature? As I said, the white slavers enjoyed the benefits of slavery so if its natural to enjoy benefits, how would you know what's ethically good or bad?

Certain kinds of fish eat their young. How do you feel about that?

I don't begrudge you your faith in anything, but I have a personal philosophy that works quite well for me and affords me the same knowledge of the creator. Like I said, different means, same ends

Good, I dont begrudge you either. We're having a discussion and I'm exploring your thought system. That's the purpose of this forum.

Peace requires tolerance, acceptance, understanding and love. Not vigilance. Vigilance leads to aggression and in peace agression is dead.

Funnily, the religion which preached your paficisim ended up conquering entire continents after psychologically disarming their colonial victims.

I was think Tutu who said When they came, they had the bible and we the land and gold. They told us to close our eyes and pray (to jesus the meek and mild). When we opened them, we had the bible and they had the land and gold.

sawtooth

And exactly what "religion" are you assuming preached the pacifism I follow? I have a feeling we are complete misunderstanding each other. I mean COMPLETELY!!

I think this discussion needs to start over from scratch in another topic. Right now I am not sure where you are getting your ideas about me as they seem totally OFF.

For now let's agree to drop the subject until another oprotuity arises to enter into discussion without all this misunderstanding going on.