Video to be seen by all!
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Salam alaikum,
His argument against the current performance of the "hajj", I meant.
Sorry, to clarify, he doesn't really say anything in the video that I watched, but he shows us all the things he describes as stone worshipping, my comment was just wishing that perhaps there was more information in the video or that the book wasn't $30. -)
I've read a similar article on free-minds already. http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/hajj.htm ...
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Salam alaikum,
Well he quotes this a little later on, with some other verses referring to the Arabs..
God has decreed the Arabs to be the staunchest disbelievers and the staunchest Hypocrites. This should be as no surprise once the reader has read a few more pages. The Quran is correct, as it is applicable, as always.
The Arabs are staunchest in disbelief and Hypocrisy, and most likely not to know the limits of what was revealed by God upon His messenger, and God is knower and Wise. (Chapter 9 Verse 97)
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Peace be upon you,
I think I am lost, what does that picture signify?
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^^"vote for me and i'll set you free" ^^ -
is prejudice justified by the Quran? ... is this what this guy is saying?
Firstly, you were not party to the research by Mr Safar. I was and therefore know that he wasn't 'PRE-judiced', however his wording is. He judged very carefully indeed , weighing things carefully.
Secondly, if prejudiced means making a choice, then I guess the messengers (whom we're meant to copy, 6/90) must have been 'prejudiced' as well when they said
Be mindful of Allah and obey me (repeated in 26/108, 110, 126, 144, 150, 163, 179)
Being assertive and declaring what's wrong is something which Allah commands us to do. If you want to call it being 'prejudiced', that's up to you but ar-rusool must have been highly 'prejudiced' people. Soft political, concilatory language when based on falsehood only leads to being washed away by al-haqq.
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salam MQuran,
i'm happy for you that you were there during the research etc.. and thank you for sharing that tid bit... it makes more much sense where your coming from..
Is there any point giving salam when your words drip with cynicism?
For your information, I was against this interpretation of Aidids. My point is simply that he didn't go into it willy-nilly. He did his research and that was his conclusion.
good ... then please let me be assertive and declare... i did not call anything prejudice as you claim... i merely posted a quote from the introduction of the book which you posted .. and it says
I have come to realize and will subsequently prove to the readers from the Quran itself that such prejudice is justified.
so why does this guy use the Quran to justifiy his own prejudice?
It was his understanding of the Quran. To say he had a prejudice against Arabs would be to conject.
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Salam alaikum,
Did you read the book, M_Mehdi? I'm not even half-way through it yet and it seems like he's not against the Arabs as people, but only critical of their interpretations of the Quran which he believes have mislead people into following what he calls an "Arab religion."
It seems he is basing it on his translations of Arabic words and comparing it to what is generally accepted as the correct translation (proclaimed by Arabs.)
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salam,
arabs predestined to betray Islam?!? is this some kind of prophecy you made up? what where you guys smokin? j/k shock
so again.. why do you (since you appear to agree with the book) and this guy want to use the Quran to justify your prejudice against the Arabic people?
I have benefitted from the book but do not agree to most of its contents. As for the 'smokin' comment, its precisely this language which incites negativity in discussion. If you disagree, why not furnish evidence. I've personally already done so to Aidid himself some years ago.
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Did you read the book, M_Mehdi? I'm not even half-way through it yet and it seems like he's not against the Arabs as people, but only critical of their interpretations of the Quran which he believes have mislead people into following what he calls an "Arab religion."
It seems he is basing it on his translations of Arabic words and comparing it to what is generally accepted as the correct translation (proclaimed by Arabs.)
Aidid Safar's work breaks new ground (at least based on extant texts) because it challenges the concepts previously unchallenged by the 'quraniyoon' such as
- al-bait
- masjidil haraam
- al-kaaba
That period of research was a mind-blowing experience and to me Aidid's capability not to be unfazed by anyone carried him through traditional interpretative structures.
However, I was sad to note that Aidid carried his own baggage in the sense that he asserts that al-quraan's message is simplistic. Because of this false assumption, he had to 'squeeze' in many of his interpretations.
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Salam alaikum,
Thanks for the info, mquran.
At least as far as I have seen, "Quran-based" people disagree on a lot of things, although I initially had high hopes for it, I doubt this movement can unite people any more than any other group or sect has done. Or was that even a goal?
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nah.. that's just your own head.. cause if you were here.. i'd give you a big ol hug.. a kiss on the cheek.. and some hot tea so we can sit down.. relax and converse...
But since i'm not, how bout a cynicism-free discourse instead.
thanks for making that clear! and for your information ... i understand where he might be coming from.. but disagree with the way it goes about towards what seems to be the whole of the Arabic People.. at least in the introduction.. which is most important one would think!... we need to be more responsible in our usage of terms when we spend so much time writing a so called book...
oh how i love the free flow freedom of message boards though
I agree with you and even mentioned to him that by saying Arabs are responsible, we're going outside Quranic bounds and relying on history because even if 9/97 refers to Arabs, it never said they'd make up thier own religion. Earlier this year, Aidid did mention to me that his third edition would be titled differently and be softer on this 'arab' issue.
the person who wrote those words.. appears to be saying that the Quran justifies such prejudice... and if you look up the word prejudice.. then insha-Allah you'll understand my concern about the book so far... that's all
I agree with you that the wrong word was used in this instance.
nah.. not really.. most folks who can laugh at themselves understand it with no problems..... but i know you take yourself very serious... please accept my apology mquran.. no harm meant at all... it's just a saying... and if you do your research on it.. it's actually a positive saying at that... but for now.. i will refrain from accusing you of doing anything mind expanding...
I don't take myself seriously. I take my self seriously. This discussion and everything is about our selves and whether it can develop. So no problem, I wasn't incited, merely to inform you that some people don't like smoking anything or being implied to.
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At least as far as I have seen, "Quran-based" people disagree on a lot of things, although I initially had high hopes for it, I doubt this movement can unite people any more than any other group or sect has done. Or was that even a goal?
Leena, may I just suggest to you that judging al-quraan and judging quraniyoon isn't or shouldn't be the same thing.
Al-quraan, as Wakas eloquently put it, should stand or fall on its own. When I read al-quraan, I see why it can be used as the basis of rediscovering the garden on earth and its concepts are mind-blowing.
However, when seeing the quraniyoon, myself included, I see the kind of baggage we carry and the laxity with which we answer Allah's call. THAT'S why no change has been made, not the idea of following God alone.
Why not take the driver's seat yourself and introduce some change to the world. The book you chose is more than capable of taking you there.
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Salam alaikum,
I do judge the people separate from the message/Quran. I was commenting more on the fact that each of us brings our own thoughts to it. This is one of the 'concerns' that I have heard from mainstream Muslims - that Qurani groups are even worse than those who follow hadeeth because we only follow our own minds.
Ex. I may read and study and come to one conclusion and someone else may do the same and completely disagree with me. Even looking at one issue, like the "punishment for a thief" articles and posts on the forum show some big disagreements.
Maybe I was just wishing for more unity and agreement... Naive?
I'm new to this interpretation, so don't take my comments very seriously. -)
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Hi Leena, welcome on fm
At first I have to say, that you got a real nice avatar! wink
This is one of the 'concerns' that I have heard from mainstream Muslims - that Qurani groups are even worse than those who follow hadeeth because we only follow our own minds.
Always when the strong uniting chains of laws, traditions, conventions, or any other constricting rules are aside there seems to be more chaos and disunity due to the huge variety of different minds and thoughts and perspectives. Look for example the (radical) leftist parties (I don't mean the state-ruling parties). They had much more fights/discussions and disunity than the right winged ones which are again protected by the conventions. When the strong authority is absent, there is space for diversity, new ideas, creativty which gives itselfs the possibility of more development. I believe that this debates are healthy and
so this development is very healthy and good for mankind.I think same applies to this board.
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Salam alaikum,
I do judge the people separate from the message/Quran. I was commenting more on the fact that each of us brings our own thoughts to it. This is one of the 'concerns' that I have heard from mainstream Muslims - that Qurani groups are even worse than those who follow hadeeth because we only follow our own minds.How are they worse ? Hadeethists rely on the deductions made by people they've never met before. Instead of relying on al-quraan itself, they project all sorts of artificial structures onto quranic thought.
Jettisoning the dogmatic weight of hadeeth is the first step towards rendering the true meaning of al-quraan emergent.
Ex. I may read and study and come to one conclusion and someone else may do the same and completely disagree with me. Even looking at one issue, like the "punishment for a thief" articles and posts on the forum show some big disagreements.
The fact people disagree with you is neither here nor there. What's relevant is that if you actually use the verses in your discourse. That's something sorely lacking as people have been influenced by the slogans peddled by anti-islamists. Once al-quraan's been allowed to speak for itself, the matter will be clear.
Maybe I was just wishing for more unity and agreement... Naive?
Not naive, but you should consider who you're trying to foster unity with.
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Mehdi i agree aswell... also maybe we aught not use 9/97 without the mention of 9/99 ... to make the full circle.. ( peharps mr. Safar did so and was not quoted on this thread doing so)
The third edition of his work takes this into account. Sadly, it fails to rescind the understanding that 'al-a'raabu' means 'arabs'. It doesn't, it's people who are outside al-madeenah (9/120)
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Salam alaikum,
Thanks warda, actually the "warda" in my avatar is from my own photography. Your avatar is very beautiful, too. -) I think I see your point about the group... I will keep it in mind.
mquran, I don't say that 'Quranists' are worse than 'hadeethists', but they said this about us. But I think their point is that "we" aren't scholars/haven't studied Quran for our whole lives/are touched by Western influences which taint our opinion about Islam. Please note that these are NOT my thoughts, I am just passing on to you what I have encountered.
As far as Quran speaking for itself, that's what I'm referring to. Words in the Quran are subject to our own interpretation (naturally) -- that's why mainstream Muslims read "obey the Messenger" and figure it means to obey hadeeth, why they read "cut the hand of a thief" and figure that it means to aputate his hand, or whatever... But they have some "backup" (they say) because they have "ulama" who have studied their whole lives. Again, not my opinion, but an observation.
As to who I want to be unified with, I suppose that would be Muslims. -)