What does 'islam' mean to you?
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And exactly what "religion" are you assuming preached the pacifism I follow? I have a feeling we are complete misunderstanding each other. I mean COMPLETELY!!
I think this discussion needs to start over from scratch in another topic. Right now I am not sure where you are getting your ideas about me as they seem totally OFF.
For now let's agree to drop the subject until another oprotuity arises to enter into discussion without all this misunderstanding going on.
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And exactly what "religion" are you assuming preached the pacifism I follow? I have a feeling we are complete misunderstanding each other. I mean COMPLETELY!!
I will rephrase if that's ok
Funnily, the religion which preached your BRAND OF paficisim ended up conquering entire continents after psychologically disarming their colonial victims.
Its quite clear to me that you don't follow any religion. My point is, the people who are supposedly pacifists as the son of their God is turned out to be very big exploiters indeed.
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And exactly what "religion" are you assuming preached the pacifism I follow? I have a feeling we are complete misunderstanding each other. I mean COMPLETELY!!
I will rephrase if that's ok
Funnily, the religion which preached your BRAND OF paficisim ended up conquering entire continents after psychologically disarming their colonial victims.
Its quite clear to me that you don't follow any religion. My point is, the people who are supposedly pacifists as the son of their God is turned out to be very big exploiters indeed.
You are still missing it. No religion preached my brand of paficism. True the quakers preached complete pacifism but I do not and have never followed their teachings. If anything, the closest cultural beliefe system to my own would have to be somewhere between the Native North Americans and the Austrailian Aboriginals. I believe in no son of god, I believe only in teachers sent to lead by example with no expectation of the people. I believe in a single creator, and a link between all of creation.
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Salaam!
I?m sorry to say that but in my humble opinion your take on
religion? is a little bit superficial here. First of all,religion? is a kind of word that needs to be defined. It is just a word to work with, in the beginning, and nothing more.
It can have many very different layers of meaning. And most of them are filled by modern eurocentric perceptions and experiences.
These perceptions and experiences are not really acceptable when coming toAustralian Aboriginal? religion or the d?n presented in the qur?n. Both have one thing in common that does not fit with, lets say, most of modern christianity. They are both a total and consistent system exploring the whole nature of human experiences, while modern christianity has retired tofaith?.
When you?re really close tonative? religions you would also understand the frame in which the quranic system is working. We?re not just talking aboutfaith? orspirituality?here. We talk about a wholesome system for life that can prove itself when you live it. It is easy to lump several quite different experiences together under the termreligion?. And then accuse all these different systems and experiences of the same fault.
But it is not very consistent to do so.
By the way, just to mention it, Native Americans had their `holy wars? as well ....... .
There is maybe almost no cultural, ideological, religious label that died not, I would assume ... .However, this brings me to another problem that I would like to point your attention to
A lot of people have done persecution and have fought wars in the name offreedom?. What does this say aboutfreedom?? That it is a dangerous and inhumane ideology ???
A lot of people have persecuted and have fought wars in the name ofpeace?? What does this say aboutpeace?? Thatpeace? is a dangerous and cruel ideology ??? These historical events tell us nothing about the true meaning offreedom? andpeace?. They just tell us a lot about humankind. That among humans there are always some who will be willing to abuse every kind of term. So, why should one care about those idiots who cause cruelty and corruption on earth while misusing terms likeGod?,isl?m?, qur?n when defining those terms ?? Why should you place your interpretation ofGod?,isl?m? andqur?n? into the hands of these corrupted people?
Would you also do so with your interpretation ofpeace? andfreedom???
Sorry, you?re running into a logical problem here.Rather it is the qur?n itself which defines the qur?n and not some mischiefmakers. And the qur?n itself denounces those who cause corruption on earth and who break peace. The qur?n itself denounces those that use the name of God to do cruelty.
Thanks for reminding us of surah 82.
However, I am not sure (yet) if I would accept your interpretation here entirely.
See,
I would say that now the command is also for God.
And also I would say that now no soul has power aught for another as well.
I agree that surah 82 is in a certain way describing a specific event, though.
However, this event is a developing process, a stretched event, if you want. Starting with creation and culminating in resurrection.
A process of destruction and termination.
See, when you look at e.g. 82/2 this is not something that just will happen sometime in the future. It is happening now already. It has started already with the creation of the universe. The whole universe in constantly in a state of loss, moving towards its creator.
Humanity itself is constantly in a state of loss as well (e.g. 103/2?).
As some people say, you constantly die since the day you were born. You can not escape this eternal law.
This does not begin in the future. It will find its culmination, its climax then, yes. But it started with creation already, it is part of Allah?s d?n.
What will be seen in the future is already recorded now (82/10-11).
And it was already written down/ordained by Allah before (9/51).
With this in mind I see it as possible to read 82/14-15 as `the wrongdoers are in the hellfire, since they entered the process of the rulings of God?.
This is what is already ordained now for every wrongdoer. This is how the laws of the d?n are working now for them.
The only way to change these workings is to change your identity from a wrongdoer to someone better, to step into another flow of the process.
Then 82/13 applies. Again it will apply now already.Wow, great what you said about yaum il akhir. Yep, al-Akhir is also Allah Himself. Hmmm ..... .
peace,
Leyla
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OK Leyla, first you just MUST tell me one of these "holy wars" between NA. Sure there was warfare but "holy wars"? When I refer to NA and Aboriginals I am not thinking in terms of anything religious. I am thinking in cultural terms. For the sake of discussion I should say that I seperate religion and spirituality. Very little of my "christian" upbringing plays any part in my personal philosphy. Of course I don't find it all bad nor do I find any "religion" all bad. Jst not a road that I need or want to take. Been there done that and it did not do for me what going out and searching has.
I personally see no need to study, analyze, memorize or carry around any book in order to know god. Nor do I see any reason to put anyone else between myself and the creator as is practiced in any religion involving preiests rabbis or any other term for the same. I have a very personal relationship with the creator that does not rely on anyone else's words or translation of words. It is not steeped in language or even history. It involves the here and now. It involves myself and my place in the circle of life. God created noah and moses and cane and able and the whole famdamily that everyone is so into, but he also created me and MY family. Now I can either choose to spend time and energy on the who what and where of 2500 years ago, or I can live inthe here and now and know the creator in my heart, in the wind and the water, in the earth beneath my feet and even in the squirrels and rabbits that seem to think I spend all summer tending a garden simply so they can bulk up for winter.
The creator reach out to different people in different places in different ways for a reason. I respect those differences. I don't always respect what man chose to do with the knowledge presented to him, but I am still human for the time being and not without my own faults.
I have no religion or faith, but I have deep spiritual beliefes and an ever growing personal philosphy that works for ME. That is all I am saying here. My sister uses the church and what she gets from it as a means to her ends and that is totally fine, in fact it is a beautiful thing and I hope and pray that it does fill her with a joy that I have attained. Different strokes for different folks
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Peace mquran,
Nature is never a teacher, its a constant repository of signs. Humankind needs guidance, whether from inspiration or from a book.
NATURE/SIGNS/GUIDANCE has, is and always will be our teacher, without which there would be no books. In other words, NATURE has taught man to write books, not the other way round.
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Peace
I wonder how people accept that nature teachs humans and reject that God is the one who teachs humans
the ignornace is coming from this fact that they are not aware of it
The nature itself needs to be expalined, the problem is it can't be expalined unless you include a Supreme God in the concept
now that is funny indeed
peace to all
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Who said the creator does not teach humans. I did read that here at all. I was saying that the creator infact DOES teach humans THROUGH his own creation.
Nature needs no explanation. It exists as it was intended to. What needs explanation? It seems to me that Holy Books and thier teaching are what need explanation. Hell people spend their whole lives pouring over the damn things in order to GIVE them explanation. Nature neither asks for nor requires it. ANYONE can experience it, see it and know it.
I am reading right end left people seeking for or giving explanation of every other word of one book or teaching or another.
I personally involve the creator in EVERYTHING. There is no other way.
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Who said the creator does not teach humans. I did read that here at all. I was saying that the creator infact DOES teach humans THROUGH his own creation.
Nature needs no explanation. It exists as it was intended to. What needs explanation? It seems to me that Holy Books and thier teaching are what need explanation. Hell people spend their whole lives pouring over the damn things in order to GIVE them explanation. Nature neither asks for nor requires it. ANYONE can experience it, see it and know it.
I am reading right end left people seeking for or giving explanation of every other word of one book or teaching or another.
I personally involve the creator in EVERYTHING. There is no other way.
Excuse me saw, you need to provide compelling evidences that nature is our teacher as well controls everything
philosphical opnions are not accepted because simply most philosphers if not all are nothing but a bunch of God rejectors infidels
peace
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Peace,
I wonder how people accept that nature teachs humans and reject that God is the one who teachs humans
Who said anything about rejecting GOD viz-a-viz nature? I wonder how poeple can write books without NATURE? Amazing idea
the ignornace is coming from this fact that they are not aware of it
The nature itself needs to be expalined, the problem is it can't be expalined unless you include a Supreme God in the concept
now that is funny indeed
Very funny indeed ? The ignorance is coming from people who reject NATURE as creation of GOD, hence the Quran.
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And when did I say nature controls everything?
I have a sneeking suspicion that this would be a futile debate to have with you. Let's just say that it is what I believe and I happy with it. It is NOT what you believe you are happy with that.
If you have a specific question about my beliefes I would be happy to answer it but I am not about to go on a long drawn out debate that will go no where with a mind not willing to accept let alone tolerate differnces.
Peace to you and I hope you can respect my position if not tolerate it
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Peace,
Who said anything about rejecting GOD viz-a-viz nature? I wonder how poeple can write books without NATURE? Amazing ideaPeace
firstly you have an over due reply regardin Al Salatu Al Wusta in the pig thread, thanks
well no games here
God or nature
if you believe in both then prove it via the Quran
Very funny indeed ?
well you have to explain nature first to make me believe in it as whatever you consider it
nature is a system created by God to serve this Testing Life, NOTHING MORE
The ignorance is coming from people who reject NATURE as creation of GOD, hence the Quran.
Well, I don't reject nature as a combination creatures, as I said previoulsy it is a system created by our God to serve the purpose of this testing life and possibly many other purposes that I don't know
but what the Quran has to do with it please?
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Peace sawtooth,
I admire you thoughful and constructive posts. Reality speaks for itself.
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Peace
and who created nature from the first place?
werll I guess saw and danish will quickly say God for sure lol
so in effect you worship the nature and give it all the credit and God for you is oput of the picture or I should say nothing but a symbol
well I guess that is not too far from atheism, possibly a new atheism cult? wink
peace
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Who said anything about rejecting GOD viz-a-viz nature? I wonder how poeple can write books without NATURE? Amazing idea
Peace
firstly you have an over due reply regardin Al Salatu Al Wusta in the pig thread, thanks
well no games here
Then don't start games. Like few others, you seem to go off-track. Stick to the subject matter and answer the questions underlined above.
God or nature
if you believe in both then prove it via the Quran
Prove what?
well you have to explain nature first to make me believe in it as whatever you consider it
Sorry, can't make you believe in NATURE. Reflect upon it with your mind, eyes and ears wide open. Perhaps you can then evalutate and write your own book about your experiences.
nature is a system created by God to serve this Testing Life, NOTHING MORE
Hence my point. lol
Well, I don't reject nature as a combination creatures, as I said previoulsy it is a system created by our God to serve the purpose of this testing life and possibly many other purposes that I don't know
but what the Quran has to do with it please?Once again, your statement in bold above clarifies my point. Funny, isn't it? roll
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and who created nature from the first place?
werll I guess saw and danish will quickly say God for sure lol
OBVIOUSLY, speaking for myself and no need to guess. Quran never created the NATURE but the NATURE CREATED THE QURAN, thus everything written in the Quran is by virtue of NATURE. Comprende!!!
so in effect you worship the nature and give it all the credit and God for you is oput of the picture or I should say nothing but a symbol
well I guess that is not too far from atheism, possibly a new atheism cult? wink
In effect, you are miserably side-tracked. Stay focused.
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Who said anything about rejecting GOD viz-a-viz nature? I wonder how poeple can write books without NATURE? Amazing idea
Peace
firstly you have an over due reply regardin Al Salatu Al Wusta in the pig thread, thanks
well no games here
Then don't start games. Like few others, you seem to go off-track. Stick to the subject matter and answer the questions underlined above.
what question is that?, you failed to put the question in a logical manner, also I didn't get what you mean by viz-a-viz, it sounded like you were saying a sarcastic comment so I gonred it really, sorry, I have no answer to that question lol
but please don't forget to reply to Al Salatu Al Wasta
God or nature
if you believe in both then prove it via the Quran
Prove what?
your point
well you have to explain nature first to make me believe in it as whatever you consider it
Sorry, can't make you believe in NATURE. Reflect upon it with your mind, eyes and ears wide open. Perhaps you can then evalutate and write your own book about your experiences.
you see you are a confuser, I don't even understand what you believe
i have put the question to you bluntly
God or Nature
i have even given the option of Both
how simpler way I can put it? at least I didn'y inckude encryppted words like viz-a-viz lol
danish, do you believe in Allah and the Quran and the other scriptures, the prophets, the angels and the judgment day?
how more bluntly i can put it to you?
nature is a system created by God to serve this Testing Life, NOTHING MORE
Hence my point. lol
well that is why I have included the option of Both, but it seems to me that you give the credit to nature more than God, and that is my point, now let's put my point again
do you believe in Allah, the Quran and other scriptures, the prophets the angels and the jusgment day?
did you see I included any nature in the above?
Well, I don't reject nature as a combination creatures, as I said previoulsy it is a system created by our God to serve the purpose of this testing life and possibly many other purposes that I don't know
but what the Quran has to do with it please?Once again, your statement in bold above clarifies my point. Funny, isn't it? roll
and I have no problem accepting that unless y0ou failed to express it, butr I didn't see you mentioning God, his books, his prophets, his angels, and the jusgment day as the centre of everything happened, happening and just about to happen or will happen in zillions of years
wher is nature fitting on the above, well do you know what "Laghaw Al hadith" is?
very funny indeed lol
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OBVIOUSLY, speaking for myself and no need to guess. Quran never created the NATURE but the NATURE CREATED THE QURAN, thus everything written in the Quran is by virtue of NATURE. Comprende!!!
Thanks you for making my point, that is what the Quran calls atheism in Arabic is "Kufr", now I'm not saying you are, I'm just saying what you say is
In effect, you are miserably side-tracked. Stay focused.
well, me or you?, you say that the Quran is written by nature and that is the most funniest thing I have ever heard, who needs to be focused here?, well I'm always focused and I never dodge a comment when I'm cornered, remeber Al Salatu Al Wusta lol
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You are still missing it. No religion preached my brand of paficism. True the quakers preached complete pacifism but I do not and have never followed their teachings. If anything, the closest cultural beliefe system to my own would have to be somewhere between the Native North Americans and the Austrailian Aboriginals. I believe in no son of god, I believe only in teachers sent to lead by example with no expectation of the people. I believe in a single creator, and a link between all of creation.
You said that vigilance leads to aggression. Well, if the victims of colonialism had been vigilant, they would have picked up on the gold,gospel and glory thing and hounded the the would-be colonialists out. Sadly, that didn't happen and one of the reasons as Tutu put it, is the result of the Bible. So you may not be preaching their or any other brand but you are against vigilance and so are they, at least in the case of their victims. They dont mind being vigilant themselves.
I respect where you come from but find your position unteneable. You cannot learn values from nature without subjectively adding your own to it.
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Peace sawtooth!
OK Leyla, first you just MUST tell me one of these "holy wars" between NA. Sure there was warfare but "holy wars"? When I refer to NA and Aboriginals I am not thinking in terms of anything religious. I am thinking in cultural terms.
That?s the problem. Both religion and culture are modern eurocentric terms with a modern eurocentric interpretation developed from a confluence of Roman/Christian ideas and superimposed on people who, linguistically and conceptually, don?t have a relation to these terms as we want to understand them.
In societies like these every cultural activity was and is religiously significant and vice versa.
War as well was impossible without the involvement of the ancestor spirits, the approval of theshaman?, vison quests etc.. Being a good warrior was seen as a spiritual duty. War has, unfortunately, always to be justified by the common worldview, in every society. Osama Bin Laden does so via his Wahhabi Sunni Cult. Bush does so via his American Freedom and Democracy Cult. There?s no difference to be taken here. And so callednative? (better indigenous) people were not better here per se. They were not naturebound Disney fluffy bunnys. Don?t exoticize them. They wouldn?t like that as well. Ever heard about the term `positive discrimination???For the sake of discussion I should say that I seperate religion and spirituality.
And for the sake of discussion you should alsi seperate the culturally bound term religion from d?n that the qur?n teaches.
D?n is not so much about your theology as more about your actions. Of course theology, theory, matters. In every worldview, theistic, atheistic or whatever. But it will never suffice to make you develop your self and the society around you to the better.
D?n has this goal.I personally see no need to study, analyze, memorize or carry around any book in order to know god. Nor do I see any reason to put anyone else between myself and the creator as is practiced in any religion involving preiests rabbis or any other term for the same. I have a very personal relationship with the creator that does not rely on anyone else's words or translation of words.
I respect that. I am sure it helps you to develop your self to a certain extent.
But you shouldn?t make claims about something that you did not study.
If you didn?t study the qur?n as much as we try to do, if the experience of truth didn?t come to you when confronted with that book, ok.
That?s your business. I will not have to deal with it. You have to make your experiences and confrontation with Absolute Being (Allah) on your own.But, simply If you don?t study the qur?n then don?t make claims about it. That?s too easy.
By the way I don?t believe in necessary human mediators between me and the Truth (Allah) as well.
When I study the qur?n in that moment it becomes a personal dialogue between me and the Peace (Allah), in that moment it becomes directly revealed to me and my personal situation.
It is not a sacred scriptue that needs to be kissed all the time. It talks to you and you talk to it.It involves the here and now. It involves myself and my place in the circle of life. God created noah and moses and cane and able and the whole famdamily that everyone is so into, but he also created me and MY family. Now I can either choose to spend time and energy on the who what and where of 2500 years ago, or I can live inthe here and now and know the creator in my heart, in the wind and the water, in the earth beneath my feet and even in the squirrels and rabbits that seem to think I spend all summer tending a garden simply so they can bulk up for winter.
The creator reach out to different people in different places in different ways for a reason.
Wow, sorry, I have to apologize. It almost seems to me as if you did study the qur?n ...... . wink
The stories of Noah and Moses and Jesus etc. are in the qur?n described as `archetypes for people of the core? (12/111).
So, yes, I agree. What does matter for us is not their perceived historicity but the significance that these archetypes take when they become a part of your personal dialogue with Allah here and now in your life. Just like the....uh... squirrels and rabbits.
I also agree on the rest. Pretty qur?nic reasoning that you have here.My sister uses the church and what she gets from it as a means to her ends and that is totally fine, in fact it is a beautiful thing and I hope and pray that it does fill her with a joy that I have attained. Different strokes for different folks
I would join the hopes and prayers for your sister. And it?s good for you that you have achieved a spiritual joy.
I can not judge your experiences. They are valid for you.
However, one thing that is easily forgotten when talking about personal spirituality
There is nothing relative to the Truth Itself. It does not subject to our personalities.
It stays the one and only Truth.Take care,
Leyla