What does 'islam' mean to you?
-
Now as for the quoran, I have never once said that I studied it, now would I really. I don't see any need to study something that was obviously intended for a people of a certain geographic area, if in fact it was "god's" word. Why else would it be in such a geographically specific language. Second, why would I pour over pages trying to analyze it? Nt my cup o tea. I have stated MY beliefes and done my best NOT to step on anyone else's, though being human it happens.
So because a text is in particular language, it must have been meant for a particular people? So no book really has a chance in your....well, 'book' because all texts must come in some language.
Sadly sir, your logic doesn't follow. This book which you never once said you've studied has never limited itself to an ethnic or linguistic group. It's laws can function in any human situation and produce the same result.
Of course you're not stepping on anyone's toes. In fact, you're better than anyone who claims to believe but refuses to judge with the book. The Quran itself asserts this. I respect your candor but you shouldn't feel disturbed, this is only a discussion.
-
Peace be upon you MQ,
fact, you're better than anyone who claims to believe but refuses to judge with the book.
Which "book" are we judging by "quran" or the "Universe"? If its the universe, then Saw tooth , I think, fits that category. The God tells us to judge by what has been revealed to us, this includes people other than followers of "quran", we are ALL to judge by the Book, this must be universal law.
-
Peace be upon you brother MQ,
That which is law for one person is law for everyone. Yes, chapter 82 deals with an event of huge proprtion, I agree, but it is each choice we make that makes life changing effects. It is Huge he command is always to the Unifying/Governing princple of life, that which we describe as "God/Allah".Agreed. Each small choice which you make (with taqwa or without) ends up in evoking this major event. I can't see that 'Allah' is a 'unifying principle' though. Allah is how is He describes Himself and His ahkaam/laws are different.
I am not forgetting the worldy signs, they are the same as within. But I talk a lot about the inner signs becaus these are the ones that effect the behavior of man and ths the outer world. The God does not change the condition of a people until they change what is in thier spirits(nafs).
Agreed. I'm just concerned about how your interpretative style, man. It's limitng the scope of the book.
I view the message of the God as a RIGHT NOW message. The human is a GROWTH, always in a state of BECOMING, so we have to be in the NOW.
It is, but it's also an eternal prediction of social living as well.
I am not following, I have taqwa as "the protection of oneness" and hamd as "exaltation". Please elaborate according to your understanding of those words how these words address the previous statement.
Taqwa is mindfulness of Allah through the obedience of his laws. It leads t self-preservation. Hamd is a state of relief or thankfulness which Nuh and his followers experience when they escaped. It's these heightened states which help us to maximise our day to day living in the light of Allah.
How so? When I observe someone who is careful in thier decisions, takes time to think them through and leaves emotion out of the picture, they succeed over the one who rushes to decide, not caring of the effects, not understanding how they can be life changing, who chooses based on emotional influence.
Well, take cancer of the lungs. One cigarette won't give it to you. A hundred might not trigger it. But your judgement will come ultimately.
Sometimes effects come right away, sometimes they take longer time, but they always come. You have to see the logic in making BIG each and every choice over making big only the total effect.
The total effect is what im arguing for here. It exists.
Time is an illusion of seperation, when we realize that all is ONE, then what we do to another we really do to ourselves.
Sadly, in this earthly consciousness, we live in these string of moments. So this is how we need to play it. Be alive in every moment and be prepared for the ultimate judgement.
-
Well if you look at it geographically, each area has a history of some great teacher or teachings sent by the creator to help heal the ways of the people. Now what if, just what if... They were all right? What if they are ALL right given the time and place? This is what I am talking about. I don't believe there is ONE single teaching to follow, but wisdom braught to all corners of the world. So no matter which one you choose to look at, if you choose to at all, you are in fact gaining the knowledge of the creator. Geography and culture is so different as you travel the world and those differences directly affect the actions of the people and how they live so it makes sense that the creator would impart wisdom that would suit the people, doesn't it? I mean in some areas it makes sense for survial for a man to have more than one wife (ratios of men to women and such) and in others areas such as the remote mountains of Tibet, women marry the entire family of brothers. The religious teachings, all having been claimed to be braught by the creator, reflect this. If you were looking down and running everythig, wouldn't you want the laws you present to represent the individual needs of the people in question?
-
......If you were looking down and running everythig, wouldn't you want the laws you present to represent the individual needs of the people in question?
Good question sawtooth. Herein lies the question is there a universal essence to man?
I contend that there is. And I contend that this is essence can be discovered though the facticity of our existence. For example, we cant be human without physically being human, so our existential reality MUST speak of our essence etc etc.
Once our essence has been understood, we must seek a system whereby the essential needs are met. So far as I have witnessed through my reading, al-quraan is the book which fulfils the need to the letter. I understand that this is simply an assertion and nothing short of actualisation of its promises will be objective.
-
Salam Sawtooth,
Well if you look at it geographically, each area has a history of some great teacher or teachings sent by the creator to help heal the ways of the people. Now what if, just what if... They were all right? What if they are ALL right given the time and place? This is what I am talking about. I don't believe there is ONE single teaching to follow, but wisdom braught to all corners of the world. So no matter which one you choose to look at, if you choose to at all, you are in fact gaining the knowledge of the creator. Geography and culture is so different as you travel the world and those differences directly affect the actions of the people and how they live so it makes sense that the creator would impart wisdom that would suit the people, doesn't it? I mean in some areas it makes sense for survial for a man to have more than one wife (ratios of men to women and such) and in others areas such as the remote mountains of Tibet, women marry the entire family of brothers. The religious teachings, all having been claimed to be braught by the creator, reflect this. If you were looking down and running everythig, wouldn't you want the laws you present to represent the individual needs of the people in question?
JK- Your absolutely right in your first statements. Indeed the Quran says
Those who disbelieved say, "If only a miracle could come down to him from his Lord (we will then believe)." You are simply a warner - every community receives a guiding teacher.
We have sent a messenger to every community, saying, "You shall worship GOD, and avoid idolatry." Subsequently, some were guided by GOD, while others were committed to straying. Roam the earth and note the consequences for the rejectors.
However the Quran also says that Muhammad was the last Prophet, thus bringing th e last scri?ture by which all coming messengers are to judge and so did RK. Thats because the Quran says
....Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Submission as the religion for you....
...Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers.
Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was A messenger of GOD and THE final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things.
Thus we see that the Quran is for all times otherwise well have to say that Muhammad was wrong in the Message he delieverd but ceratinly thats not the case. GOD will continue to send messengers but NOT a new scripture or law since that in the Quran was calculated by GOD to be good till the day of judgement and GOD is the best of reckoners. GOD Bless! -
So then the teachigs braught to the entire world are correct. So then while al the hate in this world. Why all the murder in the name of a god?
mquran, I am happy for you that you have found what you needed, i too have found what I need. They are not really so different, when stripped to what really matters
Now if only the world could realize this and allow poeple to find their way and coexist at the same time.
-
Which "book" are we judging by "quran" or the "Universe"? If its the universe, then Saw tooth , I think, fits that category. The God tells us to judge by what has been revealed to us, this includes people other than followers of "quran", we are ALL to judge by the Book, this must be universal law
Kyle, 'universal law' if acquired through observation, i.e. empirical means wouldnt make sense at all. As I pointed out to sawtooth here, an observer observing European man during a certain century would contend that its natural law for European man to be superior to African man (so-called 3/5'ths man, thier natural laws deduced).
This is why we need a book which transcends time and tells us our destiny. It operates within the self and the earth and we cannot escape it. Natural law is nothing but the laws we PROJECT unto nature, not filter from it.
-
Peace be upon you MQ,
I am not disagreeing with the total effect, all I am saying is that each decision is a judgement, mankind needs to understand that. I will pick this discussion back up when I do the proper study. I realize , thanks to Leyla, that there are several different statements being discussed.
Taqwa is mindfulness of Allah through the obedience of his laws. It leads t self-preservation. Hamd is a state of relief or thankfulness which Nuh and his followers experience when they escaped. It's these heightened states which help us to maximise our day to day living in the light of Allah.
I like these definitions, I will check them.
-
So then the teachigs braught to the entire world are correct. So then while al the hate in this world. Why all the murder in the name of a god?
mquran, I am happy for you that you have found what you needed, i too have found what I need. They are not really so different, when stripped to what really matters
Now if only the world could realize this and allow poeple to find their way and coexist at the same time.
Sawtooth, if you familiarised yourself with one of the major contentions of this forum , that people in the world known as 'muslims' reject the teachings of the quran, you would understand that al-quraan has been misrepresented thoroughly. The end result of this is 'pan-islamic racism' which is what i percieve sunnism to be.
Im happy that you choose the values you've chosen to. . Im proposing that you read al-quraan and see if it concepts can benefit you, that's all.
-
Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
Please list some values you hold dear from life experience, if you do not object. Then we can , just as an exercise, see if this reading(quran) holds the same values.
-
I am not disagreeing with the total effect, all I am saying is that each decision is a judgement, mankind needs to understand that. I will pick this discussion back up when I do the proper study. I realize , thanks to Leyla, that there are several different statements being discussed.
Each decision IS a judgement on our part, but we're not BEING judged in each decision. 10/109 tells that God's judgement comes after a period of time (hatta or until is used, as i've pointed out) and that's known as 'the hour'.
-
Peace be upon you MQ,
Each decision IS a judgement on our part, but we're not BEING judged in each decision.
Sure we are, thats the essence of reaping what you sow broher
10/109 tells that God's judgement comes after a period of time (hatta or until is used, as i've pointed out) and that's known as 'the hour'.
Yes, the effect cant come at the same point in time, thats why its the effect, it comes after(time) the cause.
-
Sure we are, thats the essence of reaping what you sow broher
Kyle, you yourself said. "The ice-creams finally caught up with me". One visit to Baskin robbins won't kill you but if its habitual then one day you'll wake up with 'the body that ice-cream built'. THAT's the judgement im talkin about.
Yes, the effect cant come at the same point in time, thats why its the effect, it comes after(time) the cause.
Right and the verse started with 'follow the inspiration and be PATIENT (asbir)...why ? Because the time delay can be frustratiing. This shows that judgement is being awaited for quite a while here.
-
Peace be upon you MQ,
Quote
Sure we are, thats the essence of reaping what you sow broherKyle, you yourself said. "The ice-creams finally caught up with me". One visit to Baskin robbins won't kill you but if its habitual then one day you'll wake up with 'the body that ice-cream built'. THAT's the judgement im talkin about.
Good example, but cant you see its that "subliminal affrimation" that "one visit wont kill me" that added up to one visit + one visit + one visit, etc
You see, if we take EACH DECISION as a great event, then I would be less likely to treat "only one time" so carelessly.
The reality is that each time I put icecream into my mouth, I was getting a small effect each time.
Quote
Yes, the effect cant come at the same point in time, thats why its the effect, it comes after(time) the cause.Right and the verse started with 'follow the inspiration and be PATIENT (asbir)...why ? Because the time delay can be frustratiing. This shows that judgement is being awaited for quite a while here.
If you stick your hand in fire , how long before you are judged?
-
Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
Please list some values you hold dear from life experience, if you do not object. Then we can , just as an exercise, see if this reading(quran) holds the same values.
Due to the mass of conversations surrounding this particular thread, I would be happy to do my best to put into words, at least in part, my personal philosophies and how I came by them. I will start a new thread after I have given some thought as to HOW to explain it all. I have tried in the past, mostly for school, a few times in a vain attempt to write a book, and I have always found it incredibly difficult to put into words what I know in my heart. Kind of like telling a loved one WHY you love them. It just cannot always be expressed as you feel it. Give me some time on this one. Christmas is a big deal in my family and consuming much of my time and mind, but I look forward to a proper discussion
-
Good example, but cant you see its that "subliminal affrimation" that "one visit wont kill me" that added up to one visit + one visit + one visit, etc
You see, if we take EACH DECISION as a great event, then I would be less likely to treat "only one time" so carelessly.
The reality is that each time I put icecream into my mouth, I was getting a small effect each time.
Kyle, that's what taqwa's all about, man. Being mindful of Allah, its not the easiet thing in the world. Look at the behaviour of 'alladhina ittaqa'
For those who practise taqwa, when part of ash-shaitaan touches them, they call to rememberance and thus become insightful (7/203)
If you stick your hand in fire , how long before you are judged?
Instantaneously. But for the events which are mentioned in al-quraan, there's an ajl or delay period involved.
-
Due to the mass of conversations surrounding this particular thread, I would be happy to do my best to put into words, at least in part, my personal philosophies and how I came by them. I will start a new thread after I have given some thought as to HOW to explain it all. I have tried in the past, mostly for school, a few times in a vain attempt to write a book, and I have always found it incredibly difficult to put into words what I know in my heart. Kind of like telling a loved one WHY you love them. It just cannot always be expressed as you feel it. Give me some time on this one. Christmas is a big deal in my family and consuming much of my time and mind, but I look forward to a proper discussion
Of course. I enjoy these discussions and by no means am trying to pressure you. We are all human beings in the world trying to seek our essence in the best manner.
-
Peace,
Do apologise for this belated reply.
OBVIOUSLY, speaking for myself and no need to guess. Quran never created the NATURE but the NATURE CREATED THE QURAN, thus everything written in the Quran is by virtue of NATURE. Comprende!!!
Thanks you for making my point, that is what the Quran calls atheism in Arabic is "Kufr", now I'm not saying you are, I'm just saying what you say is
Absolutely rubbish! Anyone (including Muslims) believing in NATURE does NOT mean atheism or ?kufr?. Where did you learn that from? Where in the Quran does it mention that whosoever believes in NATURE is known as ?kufr??
In effect, you are miserably side-tracked. Stay focused.
well, me or you?, you say that the Quran is written by nature and that is the most funniest thing I have ever heard, who needs to be focused here?, well I'm always focused and I never dodge a comment when I'm cornered, remeber Al Salatu Al Wusta lol
Obviously YOU, since you got sidetracked right from your very first post to me by infusing stuff other than what is talked about and twisting my words. Clearly you didn?t comprehend what is being said, hence I?ll paraphrase
EVERYTHING mentioned in the Quran HAS been the result of exactly what NATURE has called for and NOT the other way around.
If there were no religions, no ?idol-worships?, no ?son of GOD? beliefs, no sins, prohibitions, limitations, etc., what would be the purpose of mentioning them in the Quran? Heck, if YOU didn?t exist, YOU wouldn?t have the Quran to begin with? NATURE speaks for itself, hence the Quran.
As far as 'salaat al wusta' is concerned, this is not the appropriate thread. Read my posts on that topic in that section to give you an idea of what I understand it to mean. No need to sidetrack and be focused on subject at hand, i.e. NATURE and QURAN.