the reading(quran) is not the title of any book
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Salaamun alaikum Ahmed,
Kutub can't only mean 'books', mate. Check out 'fihaa kutubun qayyimah' (98/3).
Salam Alikom brother
welcome back, you have been missed indeed
I agree bro, Kutubun also meaans many things that is documented, i do believe verse 983 means by "Fihaa Kutubun qayyimah" means what is written in the Quran is of a very high values, the plurer was used as an indictaion to the many things of a high value that are documented in the Quran
Peace be with you man,
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just what Ahmed said
The argument of refering to it as such while it was not finished yet has really no merit
for example if it took me 5 years to write a book, during all these years I can refer to it as a book, why not?
I doubt you would look at a your first page and say this is "THE book"(al kitaab). You would say "part of my book" , not THE book. How can you look at something unfinished in say "in it is guidance , sure without doubt". If I stop you right then and there, and wanted to get THE BOOK, could I do it?
how would "part of my book" sound after the book will be complete . the complete book refering to itself as "part of the book" ?!
salam.
by the way the laws of the universe do not tell us how to lead our lives.
Sure they do, thats what Ibrahim deduced from looking at the stars moon and sun.
who informed you about abraham ? Quran or the universe ?
If yo know that jumping off a building will activate the law of gravity pulling you to yor death, will you be guided by that? Or will you jump anyway?
If you see people smoking and dying of cancer, will you smoke?
If you see people not at peace, getting emotional, and dying from stress, will you stay peaceful?
does the universe tell us the punishment of adultery(for example) ? do stars,moon and sun tell us? does the Quran tell us ?
salam idolfree .
and did u check out this article
Koran and Self Reference
http//rationalreality.50webs.com/godel.htmi m waiting for a response roll
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Peace be upon yu Saladin,
I have read the article, but I was very disinterested. What were you presenting this article to prove?
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Peace be upon yu Saladin,
I have read the article, but I was very disinterested. What were you presenting this article to prove?
salam .
i was trying to prove that "Quran" means the 114 chaptered book , not the 'reading of universe' . u see (i quote from the article) ...
Self-reference takes into consideration the "use" and the "mention" of words. When you "use" a word, it is the meaning of the word that is implied. When you "mention" a word, you are talking about the word and not its meaning. Every sentence can thus talk about the words it is using or the meaning of the word. As an example If I say, " Youth comes before manhood," it would be logically incorrect unless specified. The reason being that in the dictionary, "Manhood (the word and not its meaning)," comes before "Youth (the word)." Since the Koran talks about numerous things and uses many words sometimes repeating them many times, if the author of the Koran was a man or group of men we should find many opportunities to find such logical errors of self reference in the book. However we find something amazing when we apply the self-reference check.
If I said, "There is a mistake in the Bible,"to a crowd of pastors, there would be a great uproar and people would respond with emotion, "No there is no mistake in the Bible. Show us a mistake." I could logically show a mistake in the book by reading a passage like, "David made a mistake?" See, the word "mistake" is in the Bible. Now if the Bible were to say, "There is NO mistake in this book," it would be falsified and disproved logically, by that example. This is no trick; it involves delicate matters of logic. However, safely for now the Bible never makes such a claim, but the Koran does!
"Do they not consider the Koran with care. If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many (Kathirun) contradictions (Ikhtelaafun-)." Koran 482
The meaning of the statement (use of words) is clear. Considering the nature of the Book and its diverse topics and areas of discussion, if the Book had a human origin, it should be easy to find discrepancies in it. If we consider the "mention" of the words a different picture emerges. Let us see if the Koran passes its own falsification test on the criteria of "self reference" using the "mention" of words.
In the "mention" of the word contradictions (Ikhteelafun), the meaning that emerges is; if the book had a human origin it should contain many (Kathirun), Ikhteelafun (contradictions, the word). Many denotes more than one. To check how many times the word "Ikhteelafun (contradictions)" occurs in the Koran, we make use of the index of every Arabic word in the Koran. Due to the work of Faud Abd al Baqi, we possess such an index of the Koran today, titled, Al- Moojam al Mofahris.
Indeed the author of the Koran is aware of self-reference and the Koran passes the test of the "mention" of words as the word "Ikhteelafun (contradictions)," is just mentioned ONCE in the whole Koran in this particular verse. Not many (Kathirun) times, but only once.
i will summerize my point here
"Do they not consider the Koran with care. If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many (Kathirun) contradictions (Ikhtelaafun-)." Koran 482
let us see whether the "Koran" in the above verse means 'the 114 chaptered book' or not
- does the 114 chaptered book contain many occurances of the word "Ikhtelaafun" ? no . the word occurs only once in the 114 chapters . the '114 chaptered book' passes the test . "Koran" in the above verse means the 114 chaptered book . "Koran" is the title of this book .
salam.
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Peace be upon you,
i
will summerize my point here"Do they not consider the Koran with care. If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many (Kathirun) contradictions (Ikhtelaafun-)." Koran 482
let us see whether the "Koran" in the above verse means 'the 114 chaptered book' or not
- does the 114 chaptered book contain many occurances of the word "Ikhtelaafun" ? no . the word occurs only once in the 114 chapters . the '114 chaptered book' passes the test . "Koran" in the above verse means the 114 chaptered book . "Koran" is the title of this book .
Brother, in life we have stories(hadith) that come to us, we read them as we do ALL CREATION(Al kitaab) in order to verify if it is false story or The God's story(hadith). Any story that has contradictions is not from the God. This is how we figure out Universal Law.
The above evidence you gave does not verify anything, it assumes a position then tries to defend it.
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Brother, in life we have stories(hadith) that come to us, we read them as we do ALL CREATION(Al kitaab) in order to verify if it is false story or The God's story(hadith). Any story that has contradictions is not from the God. This is how we figure out Universal Law.
The above evidence you gave does not verify anything, it assumes a position then tries to defend it.
Kyle, if someone came to you and said 'dude, i just killed a guy', there's no internal contradiction there. What universal law can you deduce from that?
Im sorry but your interpretation's not fitting in with the quran here. Al-quraan is very self-referential, which is why, despite artificial linguistic conventions, it refers to itself as 'this THE quraan' (hadha AL-quraan, 10/37).
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Peace be upon you MQ,
Kyle, if someone came to you and said 'dude, i just killed a guy', there's no internal contradiction there. What universal law can you deduce from that?
There is a difference between a factual statement and what we call "truth". Truth deals with relationships. For example, one cant say "what is the truth"? They must ask, "what is the truth regarding x".
But the answer is not facts about X, Truth would deal with how x relates to other things. Laws are what we are after.
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There is a difference between a factual statement and what we call "truth". Truth deals with relationships. For example, one cant say "what is the truth"? They must ask, "what is the truth regarding x".
But the answer is not facts about X, Truth would deal with how x relates to other things. Laws are what we are after.
Ok, can you please tell me how you'd go about learning the truth without the book.
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Peace be upon you,
i
will summerize my point here"Do they not consider the Koran with care. If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many (Kathirun) contradictions (Ikhtelaafun-)." Koran 482
let us see whether the "Koran" in the above verse means 'the 114 chaptered book' or not
- does the 114 chaptered book contain many occurances of the word "Ikhtelaafun" ? no . the word occurs only once in the 114 chapters . the '114 chaptered book' passes the test . "Koran" in the above verse means the 114 chaptered book . "Koran" is the title of this book .
Brother, in life we have stories(hadith) that come to us, we read them as we do ALL CREATION(Al kitaab) in order to verify if it is false story or The God's story(hadith). Any story that has contradictions is not from the God. This is how we figure out Universal Law.
The above evidence you gave does not verify anything, it assumes a position then tries to defend it.
salam.
u reject the logic presented in that article just by saying "this doesnt verify anything" ?! what does that article show us ?u also ignored the arguments in my previous posts and others avoided to answer.
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Hey Saladin,
"Do they not consider the Koran with care. If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many (Kathirun) contradictions (Ikhtelaafun-)." Koran 482
Would you mind clearifying the corelation between the verse that you qouted and and the assertion that "al qur'?n" actually is the title of the book that people normally call the Koran?
regards,
S -
Hey Saladin,
"Do they not consider the Koran with care. If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many (Kathirun) contradictions (Ikhtelaafun-)." Koran 482
Would you mind clearifying the corelation between the verse that you qouted and and the assertion that "al qur'?n" actually is the title of the book that people normally call the Koran?
regards,
Ssalam.
checkout this article about Koran and self-reference
http//rationalreality.50webs.com/godel.htm"Do they not consider the Koran with care. If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many (Kathirun) contradictions (Ikhtelaafun-)." Koran 482
let us see whether the "Koran" in the above verse means 'the 114 chaptered book' or not
- does the 114 chaptered book contain many occurances of the word "Ikhtelaafun" ? no . the word occurs only once in the 114 chapters . the '114 chaptered book' passes the test . "Koran" in the above verse means the 114 chaptered book . "Koran" is the title of this book .
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Hi
salam.
checkout this article about Koran and self-reference
http//rationalreality.50webs.com/godel.htmI already did.
Now, shall we just cut the chase?
I would like you to clearify - in your own words - how it is that this book entitles itself as "the qur'an".Thanks,
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Hi
salam.
checkout this article about Koran and self-reference
http//rationalreality.50webs.com/godel.htmI already did.
Now, shall we just cut the chase?
I would like you to clearify - in your own words - how it is that this book entitles itself as "the qur'an".Thanks,
Si have explained in my own words , in reply to idolfree1's posts, why there is no reason to believe that "quran" means "the reading of the universe" .
why should the "Quran" not mean the 114 chaptered kitab ? do u have any reason to believe otherwise ?
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i have explained in my own words , in reply to idolfree1's posts, why there is no reason to believe that "quran" means "the reading of the universe" .
why should the "Quran" not mean the 114 chaptered kitab ? do u have any reason to believe otherwise ?
Yes I do, these are some of them...
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The word "qur'an" means a recitation or something being called out. Thus there's nothing aiming in the direction of the book being "al-qur'an" in this context. "Why not?" is simply not enough substance to me.
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In the book that our conversation revolvs around, there are passages where it speaks of "this book". 482 is, as we know, not one of them.
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"...so then why don't they research what is read/called/spoken...". It does not say study (d-r-s) as you might do with a scripture (kit?b), it says go back (d-b-r), i.e. go back to the source and see if it all makes sense in the end.
Hope this makes any sense to you,
S -
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El-aziz1. The word "qur'an" means a recitation or something being called out. Thus there's nothing aiming in the direction of the book being "al-qur'an" in this context. "Why not?" is simply not enough substance to me.
My reason is this
But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this (biquraanin ghairi hadhaa), or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (10/15)
and also
This Qur'an (hadhaa AL-QURAAN) is not such as can be produced by other than God....
(10/37)Notice that despite already being called 'hadhaa', the word is still 'AL-quraan', so literally 'this THE quraan'.
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- The word "qur'an" means a recitation or something being called out. Thus there's nothing aiming in the direction of the book being "al-qur'an" in this context. "Why not?" is simply not enough substance to me.
Ahmed answered this before too .but no one else commented on it
- The Quran means "reading"
Wrong again, the Qira'a means Reading and the Quran word is NEVER EVER used in the arabic language to express the meaning of reading
Quran is a name to a book that incline it should be read and that is A LOGICAL INCLINATION OF UNDERSTANDING NOT A TRUE MEANING, THE WORD QURAN HAS NO MEANING BUT A NAME OF A SCRIPTURE
peace
- In the book that our conversation revolvs around, there are passages where it speaks of "this book". 482 is, as we know, not one of them.
why there are many verses which mention "quran" , but dont mention "kitab" . does it prove anything ?
- "...so then why don't they research what is read/called/spoken...". It does not say study (d-r-s) as you might do with a scripture (kit?b), it says go back (d-b-r), i.e. go back to the source and see if it all makes sense in the end.
how cannot one research/ponder over the Quran ?
also what do u mean by "read/called/spoken" ? i mean what is it , in your opinion ,that is being "read/called/spoken" ? -
Saladin, mquran, anyone reading this post;
- The word "qur'an" means a recitation or something being called out. Thus there's nothing aiming in the direction of the book being "al-qur'an" in this context. "Why not?" is simply not enough substance to me.
Ahmed answered this before too .but no one else commented on it
- The Quran means "reading"
Wrong again, the Qira'a means Reading and the Quran word is NEVER EVER used in the arabic language to express the meaning of reading
Quran is a name to a book that incline it should be read and that is A LOGICAL INCLINATION OF UNDERSTANDING NOT A TRUE MEANING, THE WORD QURAN HAS NO MEANING BUT A NAME OF A SCRIPTURE
peace
That the qur?an wouldn?t be anything but the name of a book is stupid. The root qara? appears in both Aramaic and Hebrew language long before the qur?an was supposedly written.
how cannot one research/ponder over the Quran ?
I?m not talking about the qur?an such as the title of a book. When something is read/called out/proclaimed to you, you have the option of verify the information that you?re being given or you just believe it without doing any background check. This is what the verse means as far as I can see.
My reason is this
But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this (biquraanin ghairi hadhaa), or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (10/15)
Now, this verse obviously speaks of something else but what has already been typed down. It actually encourages one to follow what is inspired to one self. Could that be the qur?an? Give it a good thought, will you?
and also
This Qur'an (hadhaa AL-QURAAN) is not such as can be produced by other than God....
(10/37)Notice that despite already being called 'hadhaa', the word is still 'AL-quraan', so literally 'this THE quraan'.
I wouldn?t jump to such grammatically inaccurate assertions. This is how the Arabic language uses demonstrative pronouns. Let me give you an example
?sa?alatn? 'l bint `an al bint al okhr? - The girl asked us about the other girl? It uses AL bint for both of the girls. Does that mean they?re the same person? No way, Jos -
Now, this verse obviously speaks of something else but what has already been typed down. It actually encourages one to follow what is inspired to one self. Could that be the quran? Give it a good thought, will you
It's not someTHING other than this
It's a QURAAN other than this. What is 'this' , 'hadhaa'? 10/37 tells u what it is.
I wouldnt jump to such grammatically inaccurate assertions. This is how the Arabic language uses demonstrative pronouns. Let me give you an example
saalatn? 'l bint `an al bint al okhr? - The girl asked us about the other girl It uses AL bint for both of the girls. Does that mean theyre the same person? No way, Jos?!Poor example showing lack of understanding in my point.
I'm trying to tell you, that 'hadha' is already demonstrative, the 'al' is unnecessary unless it was pointing to something specific.
