Who is this....a liar....an impostor?????
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Peace Zenje
I did the same mistake what AAA is doing. I posted very harsh comment about Layth without really knowing him. I am still very much ashamed of those harsh comments. Layth I now know is the most decent person who has the tolerance and patiance which is rare in me at least. I pray to God to give me patience and tolerance just like Layth.
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Salam alaikum,
Not sure about the "no hosting in Saudi Arabia" answer, the info for progressivemuslims.org is registered to Layth, in Saudi Arabia... ?
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Please understand it would be difficult for Layth to keep this site alive and give us all so much freedom of speech if it is hosted from Saudi Arabia. The Saudi hosting companies might have refused to provide hosting to a site where you and I can discuss anything without fear.
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Peace all,
Firstly to KGB, I thank you for your kind and humbling words...I can only state that there are people here on this forum who are far better and more tolerant than I. God willing we can all learn from each other.
With regards to this site...Yes it is hosted out of NZ...It used to be hosted out of the US and was moved because the provider was not providing the required service as well as the flexibility needed (we have exceeded the set storage quota a few times because of this forum, but Brandon ? whom I first met at another forum - is always there to help).
We are paying for a service, that service happens to be provided by a Christian (who lives in Christchurch)?I fail to see why anyone would find this an issue (we use Microsoft on our PC?s which is from Bill Gates who is also a Christian ? or Mormon?)?Does that stop us doing what we do.
As for Saudi Arabia...This site cannot be hosted there else we would lose the entire content. For those who are not aware, Free-Minds.Org is banned by the Saudi proxy (has been for about 3 years)...
Here is what I get if I type the site in my browser
Arabic Text
Access to the requested URL is not allowed!
Arabic Text
Please, fill out the form below if you believe the requested page should not be blocked
Form for URL unblocking request
Arabic Text
Please, send other sites you feel should be blocked using the following form
Blocking Request Form
All my visits to this forum are through anonymous proxy?s (which most time are found and closed and thus it takes me a few days to find a new one and so on).
Progressive Muslims is hosted out of the UK (I think) and it is registered to my name since the site has no material that is considered controversial nor attention grabbing (it is merely a parking vehicle for the legal works such as The Message and The Natural Republic).
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LaythAll my visits to this forum are through anonymous proxys (which most time are found and closed and thus it takes me a few days to find a new one and so on).
My God. You're like the underground resistance.
And I thought Malaysia was bad. At least we can still access FM and Aidid Safar's site from there.
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Peace Layth
You don't have to thank me. I made mistake and not accepting ones mistakes is arrogance. I thank you for for all your tolerance and patience.
My analysis was correct about hosting out of Saudi Arabia.
Salaam Alleikum MQuran
I totally agree with your last post in Off The Topic Jaxal thread.
Brother MQuran you are Malaysian!!! The country of Dr. Mahathir Muhammad. I am great admirer of this great leader the only one in Muslim world.
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Alright, i get it...most of you like the idea of islam but don't want to conform to it. You find to many faults with the people who claim to be muslims and you judge the religion by them. The truth...there are very few muslims in the world today, but it doesn't help you guys any if you start inventing stuff yorselfs. Islam will return to what it was. It has been told that we would conquer rome and constantinople...done....we've been told that there would be a slump of 600yrs....done....we've been told about iraq and soon syria...happening.... If you guys want to return to a clean islam...cool, but don't go around preaching that your way is the right path......the only path.
WHY ARE MUSLIMS DIVIDED INTO SECTS / DIFFERENT SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT?
Question
When all the Muslim follow one and the same Qur?an then why are there so many sects and different schools of thoughts among Muslims?
Answer- Muslims Should be United
It is a fact that Muslims today, are divided amongst themselves. The tragedy is that such divisions are not endorsed by Islam at all. Islam believes in fostering unity amongst its followers.
<DIR>
The Glorious Qur?an says
"And hold fast,
All together, by the rope
Which Allah (stretches out for you),
and be not divided among yourselves;"
</DIR>
Which is the rope of Allah that is being referred to in this verse? It is the Glorious Qur?an. The Glorious Qur?an is the rope of Allah which all Muslims should hold fast together. There is double emphasis in this verse. Besides saying ?hold fast all together? it also says, ?be not divided?.
Qur?an further says,
"Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger"All the Muslim should follow the Qur?an and authentic Ahadith and be not divided among themselves.
2. It is Prohibited to make sects and divisions in Islam
The Glorious Qur?an says
"As for those who divide
Their religion and break up
Into sects, thou hast
No part in them in the least
Their affair is with Allah
He will in the end
Tell them the truth
Of all that they did."In this verse Allah (swt) says that one should disassociate oneself from those who divide their religion and break it up into sects.
But when one asks a Muslim, "who are you?", the common answer is either ?I am a Sunni, or ?I am a Shia?. Some call themselves Hanafi, or Shafi or Maliki or Humbali. Some say ?I am a Deobandi?, while some others say ?I am a Barelvi?.
3. Our Prophet was a Muslim
One may ask such Muslims, "Who was our beloved prophet (pbuh)? Was he a Hanafi or a Shafi, or a Humbali or a Maliki?" No! He was a Muslim, like all the other prophets and messengers of Allah before him.
It is mentioned in chapter 3 verse 52 of Al-Qur?an that Jesus (pbuh) was a Muslim.
Further, in chapter 3 verse 67, Al-Qur?an says that Ibrahim (pbuh) was not a Jew or a Christian but was a Muslim.- Qur?an says call yourselves Muslim
<DIR> <DIR>
If anyone poses a Muslim the question who are you, he should say "I am a MUSLIM, not a Hanafi or a Shafi". Surah Fussilat chapter 41 verse 33 says
"Who is better in speech
Than one who calls (men)
To Allah, works righteousness,
And says, ?I am of those
Who bow in Islam (Muslim)?? "
The Qur?an says "Say I am of those who bow in Islam". In other words, say, "I am a Muslim".
The Prophet (pbuh) dictated letters to non-Muslim kings and rulers inviting them to accept Islam. In these letters he mentioned the verse of the Qur?an from Surah Ali Imran chapter 3 verse 64
Say ye "Bear witness
That we (at least)
Are Muslims (bowing
To Allah?s Will)."</DIR></DIR>
- Respect all the Great Scholars of Islam
We must respect all the great scholars of Islam, including the four Imaams, Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafi, Imam Humbal and Imam Malik (may Allah be pleased with them all). They were great scholars and may Allah reward them for their research and hardwork. One can have no objection if someone agrees with the views and research of Imam Abu Hanifa or Imam Shafi, etc. But when posed a question, ?who are you??, the reply should only be ?I am a Muslim?.
Some may argue by quoting the hadith of our beloved Prophet from Sunan Abu Dawood Hadith No. 4579. In this hadith the prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said, "My community will be split up into seventy-three sects."
This hadith reports that the prophet predicted the emergence of seventy-three sects. He did not say that Muslims should be active in dividing themselves into sects. The Glorious Qur?an commands us not to create sects. Those who follow the teachings of the Qur?an and Sahih Hadith, and do not create sects are the people who are on the true path.
According to Tirmidhi Hadith No. 171, the prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said, "My Ummah will be fragmented into seventy-three sects, and all of them will be in Hell fire except one sect." The companions asked Allah?s messenger which group that would be. Where upon he replied, "It is the one to which I and my companions belong."
The Glorious Qur?an mentions in several verses, "Obey Allah and obey His Messenger". A true Muslim should only follow the Glorious Qur?an and the Sahih Hadith. He can agree with the views of any scholar as long as they conform to the teachings of the Qur?an and Sahih Hadith. If such views go against the Word of Allah, or the Sunnah of His Prophet, then they carry no weight, regardless of how learned the scholar might be.
If only all Muslims read the Qur?an with understanding and adhere to Sahih Hadith, Inshallah most of these differences would be solved and we could be one united Muslim Ummah
========================================================
TRANSLITERATION
6159 Inna allatheena farraqoo deenahum wakanoo shia'an lasta minhum fee shayin innama amruhum ila Allahi thumma yunabbiohum bima kanoo yafAAaloona
TRANSLATION
6159 As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least their affair is with Allah. He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.
This is what Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) said about splitting up Islam. Notice how Allah says you have no part in them? in other words we shouldn?t be a part of them. I don?t think Muslims should recognize people who make up things, add and take things away from Islam and accuse and insult people (such as the companions and wives of the prophet pbuh.). After the Prophet pbuh?s death, the Sahaba were very cautious as to how Islam is understood and practiced. A small example of that is when they see anyone praying between ?Asr and Maghrib, they would punish him (beat him). Unfortunately, nowadays some Muslims try to "candy coat" the Truth and say we are all brothers/sisters, that anyone who says they believe in Allah is our brother/sister (believer)?.
28 Of the people there are some who say "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not believe. When they meet those who believe, they say "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say "We are really with you We (were) only jesting."
These are they who have bartered Guidance for error But their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction. - Muslims Should be United
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Salaamun alaikum,
AAA, you've just arrived at a perfectly Chomsky-ite moment, as they say.
Alright, i get it...most of you like the idea of islam but don't want to conform to it.
An unfair remark. To conform to 'it' would mean that 'it' is the ultimate truth. If you're saying that the people who call themselves 'muslims' have the truth, you'd have to account for why none of the five pillars of 'islam' are in concordance with al-quraan.
You find to many faults with the people who claim to be muslims and you judge the religion by them. The truth...there are very few muslims in the world today,
I judge the world and myself by al-quraan and from the people i've met who call themselves 'muslim', very few are Quranically so.
but it doesn't help you guys any if you start inventing stuff yorselfs.
Do you call going back al-quraan INVENTING things? In al-quraan, do you know which people accused Muhammad of INVENTING?
Islam will return to what it was. It has been told that we would conquer rome and constantinople...done....we've been told that there would be a slump of 600yrs....done....we've been told about iraq and soon syria...happening.... If you guys want to return to a clean islam...cool, but don't go around preaching that your way is the right path......the only path.
Who told you of this 600 yr slump? I'd be interested to meet this prophet.
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Salam alaikum,
At least for me, I don't think there is an ulterior motive, but I just wonder why there weren't any Muslims in the US, UK, NZ or wherever who might have helped him out in hosting the forum... That's all. Nothing bad on either Layth or Mr. Rice, just wondering. I don't care either way. -)
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Wakas I knew of the registrant and the christchurch, new zealand thing ages ago. If anyone thinks this site is somehow run by a Christian with an ulterior motive, just look at the content advocating the Christian view... there is very little of it.
An anti-quranic-movement advocate would reply 'well, disparaging views towards hadith and sunna (and the quran as well) coupled with the freedom of christians to claim that the quran is a copy of the bible are allowed and so anyone seeking true islam will be turned away'. Its a good argument so only the steadfast will remain.
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Salam alaikum,
Its a good argument so only the steadfast will remain.
I'm not sure... some otherwise interested people would be turned away upon hearing that we are "just another sect, in bed with the Christians and Jews" and having others "warn" them about us. I am one of those people who was, until recently, wary of visiting this site! That was my own ignorance, I'll admit. But "Qurani" groups are lumped together with NOI, et al. in mainstream circles.
It just seems like a loss that those who are seeking true Islam are more likely to end up at a "Salafi" site than at this one.
You must know how new converts and those newly exploring Islam are very malleable, they are nearly completely dependent upon imams and scholars for their information... One word from a "shaikh" is enough to set them against a website (or a person, or a group) with no further discussion. I have personally been a victim of their "bans" and had people actually "prohibited" from talking to me!
It will take those timid seekers several years to read this site without fear, I think. At that point, much of the work is "unlearning" what they were previously taught. I am speaking from experience, as this is the process I am in currently. -)
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I'm not sure... some otherwise interested people would be turned away upon hearing that we are "just another sect, in bed with the Christians and Jews" and having others "warn" them about us. I am one of those people who was, until recently, wary of visiting this site! That was my own ignorance, I'll admit. But "Qurani" groups are lumped together with NOI, et al. in mainstream circles.
I think it was you I spoke to about this, the balance between 'intensity' and 'acceptability'.
10 years ago, had I come across free-minds, it would have scared me off. I had submission.org first, nice and easy and then it slowly built up.
At the moment, I'm of the opinion that I shouldn't be fishing for 'muslims' and compromising the message in order to be acceptable. People of 'non-muslim' background won't have a problem if Mecca wasn't in the equation.
It just seems like a loss that those who are seeking true Islam are more likely to end up at a "Salafi" site than at this one.
Good deduction, agreed.
You must know how new converts and those newly exploring Islam are very malleable, they are nearly completely dependent upon imams and scholars for their information... One word from a "shaikh" is enough to set them against a website (or a person, or a group) with no further discussion. I have personally been a victim of their "bans" and had people actually "prohibited" from talking to me!
Well, that's a paralysing situation, being in the power of a dogmatic shiekh.
It will take those timid seekers several years to read this site without fear, I think. At that point, much of the work is "unlearning" what they were previously taught. I am speaking from experience, as this is the process I am in currently.
It boils down to this in the end Does al-quraan touch you in such a way that traditional 'islam' pales in comparison? To me, 'traditional islam' is a meaningless phrase, devoid of substance because Allah Himself doesn't acknowledge such an entity. Al-quraan however is all about substance and to me, that's what counts
All the best in your process. Some things may be disturbing, please go slow.
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Salam alaikum,
Yes, we did have a conversation recently about this issue..
I don't think I'm advocating watering-down the message. The message is the strongest thing this site has going for it!
I'm saying this as neutrally as I can, knowing how 'traditionalists' think, that when someone comes to this site, he may stumble upon the information that this site is "owned" (as it appears) by a Christian. He may then look into the forums and see that people say "peace" instead of "salam", they say "God" instead of "Allah" -- you can see where I'm going?
This is ALL appearances and it actually means nothing nor does it affect the message, but the thing people judge religious websites on is the text content of it ... that's the reason I was initially disturbed by the fact that a "Christian" name is hosting the site. Only because of the appearance that it gives to those who might otherwise be interested. (Please understand, this is not my view, but coming from a traditionalist background, I know what most of them see when they look at a site.)
For an example, in the Paltalk chat that I administer, a man came in and was linked to this site, among his first clicks was to the page of links, where he found philosophers names (ibn Khaldun, ibn Sina, ibn Rushd) and reported to the room "This is a Sufi site... philosophy is NOT allowed in Islam..." -- this is the way they do things.
To answer your question of me, I agree Quran is it. I have no doubt about this. Quran is furqan...
"Blessed is the One who sent down the Statute Book to His servant, so he can be a warner to the world." - http//www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/25/2
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I don't think I'm advocating watering-down the message. The message is the strongest thing this site has going for it!
Good. Of course, with this position, comes what you're saying below...
I'm saying this as neutrally as I can, knowing how 'traditionalists' think, that when someone comes to this site, he may stumble upon the information that this site is "owned" (as it appears) by a Christian. He may then look into the forums and see that people say "peace" instead of "salam", they say "God" instead of "Allah" -- you can see where I'm going?
Yes, so again it boils down to deciding between intensity and acceptability. Sad that some people get hung up on superficialities though.
This is ALL appearances and it actually means nothing nor does it affect the message, but the thing people judge religious websites on is the text content of it ... that's the reason I was initially disturbed by the fact that a "Christian" name is hosting the site. Only because of the lappearance that it gives to those who might otherwise be interested. (Please understand, this is not my view, but coming from a traditionalist background, I know what most of them see when they look at a site.)
I understand and I appreciate your point. I can only say that whoever rejects the message because of this (or indeed any other reason), it's to his own loss.
For an example, in the Paltalk chat that I administer, a man came in and was linked to this site, among his first clicks was to the page of links, where he found philosophers names (ibn Khaldun, ibn Sina, ibn Rushd) and reported to the room "This is a Sufi site... philosophy is NOT allowed in Islam..." -- this is the way they do things.
Much easier to keep a cut-and-dry set of dogma, obviously. What did you reply to the chap?
To answer your question of me, I agree Quran is it. I have no doubt about this. Quran is furqan...
Excellent, then no 'scare' will be too great, inshaa Allah.
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Salam alaikum,
What did you reply to the chap?
Actually I believe he was one of the many who say what they want to say, call me a kafir and immediately leave the room. This is why you need to join me there someday. D With only a woman in the room, people (okay, men wink) will freely belittle and insult me. I've noticed that when others are in the room, it happens much less frequently.
Sad, but true.
