So You Don't Cover Your Hair, But Do You When Your Pray?
-
Salam alaikum,
Sorry, truth, I may be misunderstanding you, I don't think you're accusing me of shirk...
Are you saying that if we don't pray in the nude, we are giving authority to wrong practices?
I thought there was no Quranic position on what one should wear when praying (did you see my previous post?) One should be able to chose for herself what she wears when praying... No? If she happens to prefer covering, then she's committing shirk?
-
Salam alaikum,
Sorry, truth, I may be misunderstanding you, I don't think you're accusing me of shirk...
Are you saying that if we don't pray in the nude, we are giving authority to wrong practices?
I thought there was no Quranic position on what one should wear when praying (did you see my previous post?) One should be able to chose for herself what she wears when praying... No? If she happens to prefer covering, then she's committing shirk?
Peace Leena,
I agree that choice is fine. However you must ask yourself why you are doing what you are doing now?
Is it JUST choice or are you following what your ancestors do? How did you come to know about the covering of your head? Was it through contemplation, experiment or concrete knowledge? What are the hidden reasons you may be hiding from your consciousness?
Could you pray WITHOUT the covers JUST ONCE? That's a choice too you would agree. Try it ONCE - choose to pray without it and if you can't then what you are doing is not a choice at all; but rather a practice which you cannot discard but cling on to like those who follow their ancestor's practises.
Similarly for men (or women), try not tying your hands under your abdomen and keeping them by your sides while reciting. Why are you doing what you are doing - that's the real question - and you will find that if you are honest, then it's not a choice at all - but a noncritical following of ancestor's mistakes.
Regards.
-
Salam alaikum,
In my case, it is just a choice. My personal ancestors did not take part in this practice, so it's not something I inherited or something forced upon me. But headcovering is a tradition that I believe people all over the world share, from at least some point in their history...
I already admitted that praying in the nude and praying with a sheet are both acceptable. In my life, I have definitely prayed without a covering, I have prayed with my hands in various different positions (whatever was comfortable) and many other things.
But as I understand it and like I said before, if there is NO directive saying "you must wear this while praying", why is it harmful for us to wear whatever we want? Even if we are just copying someone else, since there is no set uniform, it shouldn't be an issue. (Like if your parents had always prayed in a certain room of the house and you pray in that room, too, is that something you didn't consciously choose to do?)
I can liken my choice to how, as a child, one may have pulled the covers of the bed over his head and wrote in a diary or anything similar. There is a feeling of comfort in it. But I do not say that it is correct to do so.
Likewise, about the hands, when I'm standing for a while (ex. in a line at the store), I cross my arms and rest them against my body. This is natural. But if a "Free-minds" Muslim saw me praying in this natural position, would he confront me for mindlessly following a wrong practice?
I think you're suggesting that no one could come to the headcovering conclusion on their own, or maybe you're suggesting that the choice of headcovering is a wrong choice? -)
-
Truth,
But also, you should pray before God in something that you are comfortbale with. Not something that you feel uncomfortable with.
If you feel comfortable naked, ok. But others may not.
I understand your point on people taking tradition and making it suddenly an obligation.
salaam
-
Peace Leena,
I already admitted that praying in the nude and praying with a sheet are both acceptable. In my life, I have definitely prayed without a covering, I have prayed with my hands in various different positions (whatever was comfortable) and many other things.
I think this depends on what you are actually saying in relation to "prayed". Many traditionists would not agree with the specific ritual prayer "namaz" being acceptable, except in their own particular way. Clothed a certain way, posturing a certain way, etc. They may tolerate differences but this is only in so far as believing that their own way is the correct way.
But as I understand it and like I said before, if there is NO directive saying "you must wear this while praying", why is it harmful for us to wear whatever we want? Even if we are just copying someone else, since there is no set uniform, it shouldn't be an issue.
Then consider going to your local masjid/mosque/temple and performing the rituals without a head covering. If you cannot then you must ask yourself why you cannot or would not. The traditionists (of any persuasion be it Quakeers, Orthodox Jews etc.) believe in set uniforms. Uniforms are an integral part of traditionist practises.
I can liken my choice to how, as a child, one may have pulled the covers of the bed over his head and wrote in a diary or anything similar. There is a feeling of comfort in it. But I do not say that it is correct to do so.
The smoker and drug injector also feel 'comfort' in what they do, though they acknowledge it may not be correct. Comfort is not an adequate criterion.
I think you're suggesting that no one could come to the headcovering conclusion on their own, or maybe you're suggesting that the choice of headcovering is a wrong choice? -)
If you follow a practice that is outside of the scope of attaining the ultimate reward "heaven"; for example painting your house in blue or yellow, then you may rightly say that whatever you pick is 'right'.
On the other hand, adopting practises that self-styled "scholars" have created as requirements - I see traditionist men's adoption of the beard as a better example in this regard - is wrong. If you wear a head cover, or grow a beard for 'religious' reasons then you are following what the God has not authorised. If you believe that there is a 'reward' for such practises then you are astray. The reason you are doing what you do is important.
Women are not wearing their head covers out of choice - they are wearing them because it is an established cultural norm (what their ancestors do) or some 'scholar' has decreed that they do so. And conformity to that cultural norm or decree is what is being handed down from generation to generation. By accepting that decree or ruling one is allying themselves to a position that goes against the fact that the God has not decreed that women must cover their heads.
The real issue is not actually about covering heads as much as it is about forbidding women the showing of their hair to certain others. A covered woman is particular about who she shows her hair and that should clue you into the fact that this is not about choice, but about following some sort of rules that have been manufactured/derived.
Contemplate the following verse carefully in this context...
- Tell them "Bring your witnesses to testify that God has forbidden this (and this)." Then even if they testify, you should not testify with them; and do not follow the wishes of those who deny Our signs and believe not in the Hereafter, and make others the equal of their Lord.
Regards.
-
Salam,
It seems that you're finding any way you can to be in opposition with me, that's so common on forums...
I do not believe headcovering is a religious or rewardable thing. I already said that. I also said that covering is my own choice. You actually do not know how or when I cover or don't cover. I think you have, at least once, accused me of something which I haven't committed.
It seems that you demand that one must not do anything that in any way aligns with what is called "sunnah" or what scholars have termed as required. If I eat with my right hand, or shave my armpits or happen to sleep on my side, I am automatically rejecting Allah and committing shirk... that's not true.
God has not decreed that women must cover their heads.
Exactly, but you must also remember he has not forbidden women from covering their heads. The ayah that you posted for me to read is more accurately applied to what you are saying to me. You are saying that the only acceptable choice is not covering. I disagree with you.
I already said covering and not convering are acceptable, so why do you continue to argue with me? It seems that you are not giving me a choice, what does that say about your position?
-
truth,
do you have a problem praying traditioanlly? in the way that most mUslims pray? you know... covering the head, and folding the arms.
if so, wouldn't you, yourself be transgressing the same limits you warns us again (we must be comfortbale with anything that Allah has not forbidden)?
salaam
-
Peace,
Salam,
I do not believe headcovering is a religious or rewardable thing. I already said that. I also said that covering is my own choice. You actually do not know how or when I cover or don't cover. I think you have, at least once, accused me of something which I haven't committed.
You must understand that I am presenting the arguments against the practise of covering as commonly known and I am not attacking your personal behaviours which I obviously do not know or claim to know.
It seems that you demand that one must not do anything that in any way aligns with what is called "sunnah" or what scholars have termed as required. If I eat with my right hand, or shave my armpits or happen to sleep on my side, I am automatically rejecting Allah and committing shirk... that's not true.
To follow a recipe book/self help guide for some aspect of your life is fine. You are missing the point that these things are not followed out of free choice. The use of a frayed piece of wood (miswaak) to clean one's teeth is done by the traditionists because they believe it brings rewards and that it was "sunnah"; and that following "sunnah" brings with it rewards.
They believe these practises are divinely ordained because the prophet allegedly did them, and not following them is equivalent to rejecting the God. That is not what I believe - but rather what the traditionists believe.
I believe you can do any of these things, or a hundred other things in their place as long as there is no underlying hidden motive or belief.
God has not decreed that women must cover their heads.
Exactly, but you must also remember he has not forbidden women from covering their heads. The ayah that you posted for me to read is more accurately applied to what you are saying to me. You are saying that the only acceptable choice is not covering. I disagree with you.
But see you are missing the point here. I already mentioned that it is not actually about the choice to cover one's head.
The issue of "hijab" is about prohibition - forbidding women to show their hair to certain others. So it IS about prohibiting behaviour. Women are forbidden to display their hair to specific others ("non-mahrams"). But we prohibit other things, like driving a car while intoxicated you might say - why not this?
Because this is being prohibited in the name of the God. That is what makes it such a contentious issue.
I already said covering and not convering are acceptable, so why do you continue to argue with me? It seems that you are not giving me a choice, what does that say about your position?
I am advocating choice; which traditionist women do not actually have! They are deceiving themselves that they have choice in this issue - they are shackled to the prohibition to show their hair to certain others according to a set of derived rules which they attribute to the God falsely.
If they choose to be truly free then they would turn their backs on the nonsense of whether they show others their lifeless keratin that grows from their scalps.
It's funny how much the sunni/shia religions fetishise keratin. Men are commanded and encouraged to grow as much of it as they can on their faces and display it for everyone to see and admire. At least a fistful they say, but more if you can! And women are commanded to shave certain parts of it, and forbidden from showing any of it (in most cases save their eyebrows, lashes, and sometimes moustaches) except to their copiously bearded male relatives.
Regards.
-
Salam alaikum,
I think we have understood each other adequately. -) Ma sha' Allah...
It's funny how much the sunni/shia religions fetishise keratin. Men are commanded and encouraged to grow as much of it as they can on their faces and display it for everyone to see and admire. At least a fistful they say, but more if you can! And women are commanded to shave certain parts of it, and forbidden from showing any of it (in most cases save their eyebrows, lashes, and sometimes moustaches) except to their copiously bearded male relatives.
This is a very perceptive observation... and humorous as well. -)
-
As Salaam Alaikum,
Today when I woke up for fajr, I didn't cover my hair. It didn't feel bad at all.
But what did feel bad, is that I didn't throw over a nice overgarment that i usually wear... instead I wore my torn up pajama t-shirt, and some sweats....
Why would that feel bad?
Surah 7 31
O Children of Adam!
Wear your beautiful apparel
At every time and place
Of prayer eat and drink
But waste not by excess,
For Allah loveth not the wasters.(hint, hint.... if we're suppose to be wearing beautiful appearls, we sure aren't suppose to be making salat naked)
salaam
-
Hi all,
As Salaam Alaikum,
Today when I woke up for fajr, I didn't cover my hair. It didn't feel bad at all.
But what did feel bad, is that I didn't throw over a nice overgarment that i usually wear... instead I wore my torn up pajama t-shirt, and some sweats....
Why would that feel bad?
Surah 7 31
O Children of Adam!
Wear your beautiful apparel
At every time and place
Of prayer eat and drink
But waste not by excess,
For Allah loveth not the wasters.(hint, hint.... we're not suppose to be making salat naked)
I dont wear head cover normally, but yeah, we were always told that we ought to cover our heads when we pray to Allah, or read Quran etc.
The reason my mom gave was, it was out of respect. which sounds fine, by me.
The reason others in the family and society gave was prayers wont be accepted if even a single hair is visble. This, I found ridiculous. Its like they say angels wont visit ur house if u have photographs of humans or animals in ur home. Which again, I feel is a ridiculous and baseless superstition.
So, I suppose covering ur head, while praying is not a compulsion. But if some one wants to do, out of respect, its ok.
As for praying naked, why would any one want to pray naked? ??
I agree there is no shame in front of God. It is He who created us. And He sees us all the time. But yet, why would someone want to perform salat naked? I mean, Why would some one do any similar activity naked?
I mean, its like saying, 'cooking in the kitchen naked'? yeah, u can do that, if u want to. But why would u want to do that? It doesnt make any sense.Peace!
-
Peace to all
I can't believe that a muslim suggest to pray to Allah in the nude, this is the most rediculous thing I heard in my life
well there is a story in the Quran I think it is sura no 9 that promises the pagan who used to do tawaf naked around the Kaaba with horrible punishment, it even ordered the believers to kill them if they do stop their foolish act.
while the story was not about praying naked in public but we can understand that just being naked and to associate a religious practice to it is crazy
I'm sure that this is one of Satan's tricks to fool the believers so they commit a horrible sin indeed, the point is he willmanage to convince them that there is nothing wrong with it
well when Allah created Adam and his partner then they listened to Satan and disobayed Allah, what happend next?, I'm sure you all know because it is written in the Quran, Satan ripped their cloths to expose each one to the other, whar Adam and his wife did? they felt shame and tried to cover themselves, however Allah used this story to give us the following example that He created what we make cloth from to cover our shame
26- "O children of Adam! We have indeed sent down to you clothing to cover your shame, and (clothing) for beauty and clothing that guards (against evil), that is the best. This is of the communications of Allah that they may be mindful."
27- "O children of Adam! let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their shame, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them; surely We have made the Shaitans to be the guardians of those who do not believe."
(26)
(27)
-> From the above it is logical to understand that being naked in public is forbidden by Allah,
-> Also we can't consider being alone is not public because logically speaking you are not alone and you are standing in front of Allah, ie. IT IS PUBLIC,
-> If you will still argue that it is not public, then according to the Quran, there is two angels who are seeing and recording everything you do, that must be public for sure
-> Sure we get naked while having a bath or while having sex, but that act of having a bath or having sex is not associated to God, but to pray naked which is an act associated to God, then it means one thing, a total desrespect to Allah
Please read the first few verses in sure no 9, the sura that do not have the Bismellah
It should also be noted that in 726 where Allah is telling us "O children of Adam! We have indeed sent down to you clothing to cover your shame" was followed in 727 with what happened to our parents "O children of Adam! let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their shame"
please note shame suppose to mean Genitals
Peace
-
Salam alaikum,
I, myself, couldn't imagine doing such a thing. But your responses are better aimed at the man who actually said this, Mr. Yuksel (http//www.yuksel.org/) -- see what he has to say to defend this position.
Thank you sister
while I'm not interested to read this man work due to other issues I knew about him, i will honor that you have posted the link and i will have a look at it later
Peace sister
-
Peace Ahmed,
I can't believe that a muslim suggest to pray to Allah in the nude, this is the most rediculous thing I heard in my life
well there is a story in the Quran I think it is sura no 9 that promises the pagan who used to do tawaf naked around the Kaaba with horrible punishment, it even ordered the believers to kill them if they do stop their foolish act.
Are you saying that it's not possible that the crime was actually the act of performing circumambulation around the cube? Does it not strike you as odd that the pagans are performing back then, something the traditionalists are doing even today?
-> From the above it is logical to understand that being naked in public is forbidden by Allah,
-> Also we can't consider being alone is not public because logically speaking you are not alone and you are standing in front of Allah, ie. IT IS PUBLIC,
So you never call upon the God while naked? Who do you say "Neveyt-ul ....." prior to washing yourself in the shower while naked?
These conceptions of clothing and shame are all anthropomorphic concepts. The God sees you whether you have clothes or lead on you. Your scruples are in your own mind and do not apply when you are in private. The God sees all regardless.
-> If you will still argue that it is not public, then according to the Quran, there is two angels who are seeing and recording everything you do, that must be public for sure
Again these are anthropomorphic thoughts.
-> Sure we get naked while having a bath or while having sex, but that act of having a bath or having sex is not associated to God, but to pray naked which is an act associated to God, then it means one thing, a total desrespect to Allah
So your 'ghusl' to cleanse yourself while naked is not for the God? You don't call out to Him then?
Brother, your nakedness is shameful to you when exposed to other humans. You cannot escape, hide or cover yourself from the God. You are slandering the God, by applying concepts of human shame and 'respect' to Him. He is far above what you associate by mentioning these things.
No one is saying that you must be or should be naked to call out to the God; but it is irrelevant whether you are covered or not when in private. In any case you are always naked right down to your soul in that sense.
Regards.
-
Hi all,
Brother, your nakedness is shameful to you when exposed to other humans. You cannot escape, hide or cover yourself from the God. You are slandering the God, by applying concepts of human shame and 'respect' to Him. He is far above what you associate by mentioning these things.
No one is saying that you must be or should be naked to call out to the God; but it is irrelevant whether you are covered or not when in private. In any case you are always naked right down to your soul in that sense.
I agree with truth here.( to Truth u should consider changing ur nick.wink it can get confusing if we are implying to u or truth as in opposite of thats false.................anyways, in this instance, i am implying to u )
Though I clearly dont see any sense in performing salat in nude.
Nudity is shameful only in front of other human beings. Not in front of God.
If u mean, Our Nudity is shameful even in front of God, then that would mean that we should not even think of or remember God when we are nude. Becoz our thought is as important as our action.
So, to say we should feel shameful infront of God is a bit extreme, I think.But then, like I said, I dont see any sense in performing salat while in nude. The focus during salat should be on God. Whats the need for being nude? ??
Peace!
-
Peace Ahmed,
Peace mate
I can't believe that a muslim suggest to pray to Allah in the nude, this is the most rediculous thing I heard in my life
well there is a story in the Quran I think it is sura no 9 that promises the pagan who used to do tawaf naked around the Kaaba with horrible punishment, it even ordered the believers to kill them if they do stop their foolish act.
Are you saying that it's not possible that the crime was actually the act of performing circumambulation around the cube? Does it not strike you as odd that the pagans are performing back then, something the traditionalists are doing even today?
I'm not saying it is not possible, what I'm saying is this
To threaten to kill a group of wrong doing people to stop doing Twafa naked around the kaaba sounds more plausible than threatening to kill them because they do circumcision in there, assuming you mean by circumambulation , circumcision
also the history records about the prophet never mentioned your allegation
-> From the above it is logical to understand that being naked in public is forbidden by Allah,
-> Also we can't consider being alone is not public because logically speaking you are not alone and you are standing in front of Allah, ie. IT IS PUBLIC,
So you never call upon the God while naked? Who do you say "Neveyt-ul ....." prior to washing yourself in the shower while naked?
I don't say anuthing to God delibertly when I'm having a showed, i may think of a something religious that just came to my mind at that time, but I never consider myself in a position to worship Allah while being naked, it makes no sense to me, and sounds a bit queery, like the mardi gra party goers who have no shame from others
These conceptions of clothing and shame are all anthropomorphic concepts.
well, it is mentioned in the Quran, hence it has to be true, also I stated that shame was used wrong instead of "Genitals"
The God sees you whether you have clothes or lead on you.
Well, if He told me to wear my best cloths when I go to masjid to pray 731, then Allah wants me to look good in front of someone the while praying, right?
Don't you think He means to look good in front of Him while contacting Him or to look good in front of the other belivers?, not strangely enough the 4 verses below are from the same sura no 7 that tells us Allah created the cloths to us so we conceal our "Sawaatona" , ie. to conceal any offending part of the body, I included 730, 732 and 733 as well due to the importance of the message they have
30- "Some He hath guided Others have (by their choice) deserved the loss of their way; in that they took the evil ones, in preference to Allah, for their friends and protectors, and think that they receive guidance."
31- "O Children of Adam! wear your beautiful apparel at every time and place of prayer eat and drink But waste not by excess, for Allah loveth not the wasters. "
32- "Say Who hath forbidden the adornment of Allah which He hath brought forth for His bondmen, and the good things of His providing? Say Such, on the Day of Resurrection, will be only for those who believed during the life of the world. Thus do we detail Our revelations for people who have knowledge. "
33- "Say the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge."
(30)
(31)
(32)
(33)
Therefore if He wants us to look good when we stand in front of him, I reckon it will be a crime to stand naked in front of him, that is why He sent us cloths to cover ourselves.
Now if you consider exposing the self to the public without the need to is a shameful deed, then why exposing the self while praying to Allah is OK?, why Allah told us this in 733?
"Say the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are shameful deeds, whether open or secret;", can you sea the word "Secret"?Well the same verse ended with warning us to "saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.", and truely I have to classify this rediculous allegation as saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge
Your scruples are in your own mind and do not apply when you are in private. The God sees all regardless.
Not sure about that, Allah said don't do any shameful deed IN OPEN OR IN SECRET, and if you classify exposing yourself without the need to is a shameful deed, then we can't pray to Allah while being naked, again sounds very queery to me
-> If you will still argue that it is not public, then according to the Quran, there is two angels who are seeing and recording everything you do, that must be public for sure
Again these are anthropomorphic thoughts.
Truth, Do you believe that there are two physical angels who recording everything you say and do that you can't see then?
Yes or No answer please
-> Sure we get naked while having a bath or while having sex, but that act of having a bath or having sex is not associated to God, but to pray naked which is an act associated to God, then it means one thing, a total desrespect to Allah
So your 'ghusl' to cleanse yourself while naked is not for the God? You don't call out to Him then?
I don't think 'ghusl' is for God but for us, It is logical that we should stand in front of Allah clean "when praying", as well Allah is teaching us how to be clean using the water He drops from the heaven.
Brother, your nakedness is shameful to you when exposed to other humans.
And deliberately exposing to Allah while praying is considered a crime in my books and according to the common sense, history records and the Quran
You cannot escape, hide or cover yourself from the God.
did I ever say that?, no, and I agree with you here, but that does not warrant to us to pray in the nude
What you just said reminded me with some confused sunni sect followers. It is about a hadith that discussed a verse in which Allah says we can NOT conceal anything from Him, the Sahaba were concealing themselves while pissing in the desert, hence the hadith told them not to do that as while they are pissing "or doing anything for that matter" Allah will see them still if they try to conceal the action, now that was worth putting in a book dedicated to religious humour i guess, thanks for the laugh lol
Peace
-
As Salaam Alaikum,
I think that we should make somehting clear
Dua (a personal prayer).... is different than Salat. While making SALAT we are commanded to wear our beautiful apparel.... I emant salat when I started this thread.
salaam
-
As Salaam Alaikum,
So several of you all are talking about how it's perfectly acceptable to make salat while nude.
Surah 7 31
O Children of Adam!
Wear your beautiful apparel
At every time and place
Of prayer (salat) eat and drink
But waste not by excess,
For Allah loveth not the wasters.Allah commands us to WEAR our beautiful apparel when we make salat. A personal prayer, is very different ahn SALAT.
In SALAT we are commanded to wear beautiful clothes.... not make it while nude.
Why is there anymore to say?
You all keep talking about how peopel are "adding" things to the religion... but aren't you adding by saying it's ok to make salat when nude, when Allah clearly tells you how you should be when making salat?
He tells us us that we are suppose to wear beautiful apperal at EVERYTIME and place of prayer.... you all can't get away with this, "well he didn't forbid it"... Allah TELLS US what to do. let's not be hard headed.
salaam