Life after Death--Scientifically 'provable'?
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On a side note, I found the following Quranic verse that you quoted very interesting
"Yea! We are able to make complete his very fingertips"
Monozygotic (identical) twins, which share the same DNA, and often cannot be separated using modern DNA tests, do not have the same fingerprints. While they have the same nuclear DNA, they don't have the same mitochondrial DNA, which may be why they have different phenotypes, a result of which is different fingerprints.
Peace David
Yeh mate the above verse is another proof that the Quran can not be human made
Peace be with you
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Peace Ahmed and Saladin,
Thanks for the responses.
Saladin
I'm not sure what your position was? Do you believe that Life after Death (LAD) is scientfically provable? It seems that based on the quote you provided you seem to think that it is. This brings several questions to mind.
salam.
my position is that LAD is not considered unreasonable by the scientist .1.) What if the DNA of a person was not preserved?
In many cases, a person's DNA is not preserved due to decomposition of the body, including the bones. There are also many who have been cremated/incinerated which would also destroy DNA (depends on the temperature and duration).i believe that God is clever than us . i m not sure how He would do it . u can ask this question to M. Asadi(the author of that article i quoted from) on his Quran and Science forum( http//rationalreality.forumsplace.com/forum-1.html&sid=36d7e8ba53650c5d94ed5a418090a8a6 ) . maybe he can give you more detailed reply .
3.) Even if we assume that the existence of DNA somehow helps strengthen the position of LAD, what about people who lived 500 years ago? (or even early 20th C) Did they know about DNA? How would they have verified the existence of LAD?
why would they need to verify that ?
On a side note, I found the following Quranic verse that you quoted very interesting
"Yea! We are able to make complete his very fingertips"
Monozygotic (identical) twins, which share the same DNA, and often cannot be separated using modern DNA tests, do not have the same fingerprints. While they have the same nuclear DNA, they don't have the same mitochondrial DNA, which may be why they have different phenotypes, a result of which is different fingerprints.
yes . nowadays fingerprints is the most common method of identification . ppl can have similar faces but not similar fingerprints . Quran knew that all along .
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Peace Saladin, Ahmed, all,
I agree with Ahmed. I think belief in LAD is part of the test, and I don't think it is reasonable scientifically speaking.
In addition, I'm not even sure if DNA would help out, as maybe the following verses indicate that we will not have the same physical bodies?
We have predetermined death for you. Nothing can stop Us,
From transforming your forms, and establishing you in what you do not know.
You have come to know about the first creation. If only you would remember.
(5660-62)Ahmed,
I'd be interested in any verses you have stored up on this subject.peace
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salam.
Peace Saladin, Ahmed, all,
I agree with Ahmed. I think belief in LAD is part of the test, and I don't think it is reasonable scientifically speaking.
logically , reviving is easier than creating for the first time . so giving life after death will be easier than giving the life for the first time .
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Salam alaikum,
Since it seems that a soul is also an unprovable concept, do you think the soul makes one exist, or is a physical shell the basis for existing? Is DNA a clue to what the soul is? How can LAD be proven, if the soul has not yet been found or proven? Is the soul an actual thing, as opposed to a mere concept or abstract representation? Lots of questions...
Ahmed said that "there is no death at all" for the soul. I think this is true.
If LAD were provable, what would that mean for the world? If people knew they would be going 'somewhere' after death, there wouldn't be much of a test for people anymore, that might be something that would set everyone upon a straight path. Well, if they believed that 'somewhere' was heaven or hell... -)
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salaam all
very interesting and very difficult topic. I am not sure I can transfer my rationale into wiriting but i will try.
Surely if one accepts the concept of the existance of the soul then it cannot be confused with the physical existance-which is what the DNA etc argument is refering to.
Soul in my undrstanding is a spiritual concept which like our physical being can vary but unlikely to interact togather.
Our spiritual being will be determined by our emotional, religious and multitude of other similar experiences in our life time which, as far i am aware, are not incorporated into our genetic make up.
If for an example i was to be cloned today, the cloned me would have the same potential that I possessed from the start of my life but not the spiritual emotional and even physical experience of present me that is my soul today.
however if i die today then my soul is the present me which has been the result of the complex mixture of my genetic potential and the enviormental influences.
Therefore we cannot talk about the soul and regeneration of physical form by gentic manipulation.
theoraticaly one could create life by combination of the amino acids that make up the DNA-which thoeoratically could replicate any human from the basic amino-acid units without the need for the pre-xisting DNA.
Then as for the science knowldge, and Quranic understanding, is concerned we only know a tiny fraction at present-who knows the generations to come will laugh at our primitive thinking but the more I learn about the worldly knowldge the more the Quran seems timeless.
regards -
Ahmed,
I'd be interested in any verses you have stored up on this subject.peace
Sure david, let me recap what this thread is all about and i will get back to you
peace be with you
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Hello David
I wrote many comments about this subject while debating/discussing it with a few Muslims and non Muslims, I was always fascinated by death and always eager to know what I can about it. The subject of death is one of the most important things in life, it is indeed the most assured thing that will certainly happen to everyone, the problem is it is by far over looked and many humans just can?t truly understand its nature and its objective. But before I start please be aware that I will keep jumping between different locations in the Quran, I learnt this style from one of the best Islamic scholars in Egypt, he is dead now, his name is Mohammad Metwali El Sharawi, may Allah grant him forgiveness, I found his style is really good because it does not only link quranic words but he links quranic contexts as well and this is how I see the Quran explains itself. This method never failed me in understanding the Quran for the last 25 years and I?m still counting.
Death for me is like being unconscious or similar to being asleep, people just think or should I say ?made to believe? they die, I read and thought a lot about it however regardless of what my thoughts are, I can only tell what the Quran said about death and why I think people do not die.
The Quran is telling us that people will be aware of dying during death, ie. we will know that we are dying when the moment of death comes, I tried to extract all the verses about death as mentioned in the Quran but they are heaps so I brought in what I found has a message in there for all of us
?Every soul shall have a taste of death in the end to Us shall ye be brought back?
(57)
-> The above verse is clear it say that every soul must taste death ?Every soul shall have a taste of death? well that is easy to observe however can you see how the Quran used the word ?TASTE??, this means that death is going to be a real experience, what is not an observation is what is coming next ?in the end to Us shall ye be brought back?, ie after death we will be brought back to Allah to give account.
?Every soul shall have a taste of death and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial. to Us must ye return.?
(35)
-> And because this message is important it was repeated again with extra piece of information ? ?Every soul shall have a taste of death and the extra piece of info is ?and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial.? ie. we are being tested in this life by evil and by good, and based on the test result and when the test finishes by dying? then ?to Us must ye return.?.
?Every soul shall have a taste of death And only on the Day of Judgment shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved far from the Fire and admitted to the Garden will have attained the object (of Life) The life of this world is but comfort of illusion.?
(185)
-> Again for the third time this important message about death is repeated with more pieces of information ? Every soul shall have a taste of death, then we give account and be judged ? And only on the Day of Judgment shall you be paid your full recompense.? and the result of our test will be given to us ? Only he who is saved far from the Fire and admitted to the Garden will have attained the object (of Life)?, then the verse ends by telling us that this testing life ?The life of this world is but comfort of illusion?.
And because all people will certainly know they are dying, the bad ones will try to repent at the moment of death
?Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.?
(1
-> These are the bad doers who will try to repent when they stumble into death Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, ?Now have I repented indeed;?", but how about the people they think it is enough to have pure hearts but reject faith? well, same destiny as the bad doers ?nor of those who die rejecting Faith, and what will happen to those people ?for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.?
Those people will ask at the moment of death to be sent back to life so they can fix their flaws
?(In Falsehood will they be) Until, when death comes to one of them, he says "O my Lord! send me back (to life),-?
(99)
But how the humans know they are dying?, simply they will see the angels of death for real
?Say The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls then shall ye be brought back to your Lord."
(11)
-> ?Then shall ye be brought back to your Lord.", it is like we are not really dead, we are put on hold until the judgment day then we will be brought back to give account.
It is also worth noting that our vision in this testing life is restricted to serve the objective of testing, when the test is finished, this restriction is no longer required and will be removed, hence we will see the angels of death
?Certainly you were heedless of it, but now We have removed from you your veil, so your sight today is sharp.?
(22)
-> When this restriction is removed our vision is described as having as the eye sight of steel a metaphor expressing how strong our vision will be ? ?, translated as ? so your sight today is sharp?
-> In fact when the truth will be revealed and the vision will be sharp at the moment of death all unbelievers will even try to submit to Allah, but that will never be accepted as we have seen in 418 above
?And We made the children of Israel to pass through the sea, then Firon and his hosts followed them for oppression and tyranny; until when drowning overtook him, he said I believe that there is no god but He in Whom the children of Israel believe and I am of those who submit.(Muslim)?
(90)
This moment of death is indeed not going to be a nice moment for many we can see how it made Pharaoh submit to Allah in a moment while he refused all the reasoning and logic all his life, in fact the moment of death is described like this in the Quran
?And the agony of death cometh in truth. (And it is said unto him) This is that which thou wast wont to shun.?
(19)
The Quran is telling us that death is like sleep as well, in each case the soul comes out of the body but for who has not reached their moment of death and must stay alive for for a term appointed their souls will be sent back to their bodies and they wake up from sleep, this happens to you, me and everyone when we sleep and wake up indeed., and surely this will be similar when we die our souls are taken then are sent back to our bodies after being unconscious for all that time between death and the Judgment day
?It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.?
(42)
In another location we can see that the wrong doers during the time between death and the Judgment day ?like sleeping? they will experience sort of nightmares, indeed death sounds like sleeping
The Quran told us many things about Pharaoh ?Fir?on? and his followers, for example it tells us how in the period between his death and the day of judgment they will see hell every morning/evening like a double nightmares every day until the day of judgment and when the day of judjment comes, he will enter hell which is going to be a totally new experience for them
?The fire; they shall be brought before it (every) morning and evening and on the day when the hour shall come to pass Make Firon's people enter the severest chastisement.?
(46)
-> The verse is clear that pharaoh and his people will see the hell twice a day while they are dead ?like a nightmare exactly but you can not wake yourself up to stop it, it will be experienced with the soul only exactly as we are sleeping and experiencing nightmares, ?? The fire; they shall be brought before it (every) morning and evening?, twice a day then when the day of judgment comes ?and on the day when the hour shall come to pass Make Firon's people enter the severest chastisement?.
I found this whole sura that can simulate what I just said about seeing hell in a sort of nightmares , I was actually looking for it deliberately because it tells us that we will see hell twice, firstly we will see it then we will see with the eye of certainty
(1) ?Abundance diverts you,?
(2) ?Until you visit the graves.?
(3)?Nay, but you will come to know!?
(4) ?Again, but you will come to know!?
(5) ?Nay! if you had known with a certain knowledge,?
(6) ?You shall see the Hell-Fire!?
(7) ?Then you shall most certainly see it with the eye of certainty;?
( ?Then on that day you shall most certainly be questioned about the boons.? ?(1)
(2)
(3)
(4)
(5)
(6)
(7)
(-> Verse 2, tells us an amazing fact that happens at least once to almost every single human ever existed on earth, this fact is when we visit the graves burying someone who just died, we get out of this diversion mentioned in verse 1 and think for a moment between ourselves, well, I know that it is logical at burial ceremonies everyone?s face is grim and everyone is almost silent, but imagine what every individual at the scene is thinking with him/her at that moment, I worked as the manager of the Muslim Cemetery in Sydney for a year 14 years ago and I have seen miracles in front of my eyes that one day will be eaten by the worms, believe me mate, I may tell you one , the one that I will never forget till I die, as it is engraved in my mind, let me know if you want to know it?,
-> So we get out of this diversion caused by our concentration on our reproduction until we visit the graves ?Until you visit the graves.?, man this small verse is unreal in its accuracy, even the people who do not believe in a God but attend burial ceremonies surly re-think for a moment seeing someone they knew just passed away, the point is we all know about death, but when we see it happens to someone we know, we will sure have more certain knowledge about it or more feeling of it, it is like you see it virtually but yet to happen to you, then when it happens you will see it with certain vision, i.e. you reached the ultimate knowledge, when you see it with your own eyes.
-> Verse 3, the verse here started by telling us that we will know about something, this thing is actually the Hell Fire as it will be mentioned later in the verses, well this is the knowledge about it from God?s messages ?Nay, but you will come to know!?
-> Verse 4, and God?s messages about the Hell warning will be repeated, look how many prophets we know from history who suppose to have warned masses of humans and yet been ignored ?Again, but you will come to know!? , can you see how the verses describe that we will gain knowledge about it "Hell" but the verse never mentioned seeing it yet?-> Verse 5, confirming this certain knowledge theory that I mentioned above, i.e. we only have knowledge about Hell, but we do not have certain knowledge about it yet, but that does not mean it does not exist, rather we did not see it with our eyes yet, ?Nay! if you had known with a certain knowledge,?
-> Verse 6, we will see the Hell in the period after we die till the day of judgment "Assumption", exactly like a nightmare, but you can not wake up, you know that dreams sometimes feel so real like livening it live, however we have not seen Hell with the eyes of certainty yet ?You shall see the Hell-Fire!?
-> Verse 7, and here we go on the judgment day while we are being judged and Hell is nearby, we all will be able to see it at a distance with our own eyes ?the eye of certainty? ?Then you shall most certainly see it with the eye of certainty;?
-> Verse 8, and sure on that day we will be questioned about our indulgence in life and our diversion from knowing our creator ?Then on that day you shall most certainly be questioned about the boons.?
This whole sura simulates to a high degree how the knowledge of a something can progress for knowing nothing to knowing lil about it ?in this life?, then knowing more about it without physically seeing it ?when the angels of death tell us that is what we are heading for ? God forbids? in 850 discussed further down the post, then knowing about it more by virtually seeing it in continuos nightmares, then knowing more about it by physically seeing it ?the eye of certainty?. This also runs in harmony with the other info when our vision was described as will be a vision of steel (sharp) in 5022 ? ?, translated as ? so your sight today is sharp?
The Quarn in another location talked indirectly about, ?the eye of certainty?
(13)?That Day shall they be thrust down to the Fire of Hell, irresistibly.?
(14) "This, it will be said, "Is the Fire,- which ye were wont to deny!?
(15) "Is this then a fake, or is it ye that do not see? ?
(16) "Burn ye therein the same is it to you whether ye bear it with patience, or not Ye but receive the recompense of your (own) deeds."(13)
(14)
(15)
(16)-> Verse 13 tells us about the people who will be driven violently to their doomed destination the hell ?That Day shall they be thrust down to the Fire of Hell, irresistibly.?
-> In verse 14, they will be told "This, it will be said, ?Is the Fire,- which ye were wont to deny!?? , will denying the fire be similar to considering it as a metaphor? Well, I guess yes according to the followings
-> Verse 15, they will be asked in sarcasm "Is this then a fake, or is it ye that do not see? ?, and this is the eye of certainty I?m talking about.
-> Verse 16, now being patient or not while barbecued in Hell, will be the same, obviously the verse makes a joke of people like them "Burn ye therein the same is it to you whether ye bear it with patience, or not Ye but receive the recompense of your (own) deeds.", can you see how the verse ended by ?Ye but receive the recompense of your (own) deeds.?, and what is this own deed?, well it is denying the true God, His messages, His prophets, His angels and sure His punishment.
The following verse is telling us what the unbelievers will say to the angels of death after the appointed term is expired and the soul has to exit the body for a long time not ?for a few hours?
?Whom the angels cause to die while they are wronging themselves. Then will they make full submission (saying) We used not to do any wrong. Nay! Surely Allah is Knower of what ye used to do.?
(2
-> Clear as light again ?Whom the angels cause to die while they are wronging themselves.? the unbelievers will see the angels at the moment of death and straightaway they will lie and try to repent Then will they make full submission (saying) We used not to do any wrong.?, the angels will respond to them ? Nay! Surely Allah is Knower of what ye used to do.?, I reckon those people who think that having a pure heart and not to worry about belief is enough in this life will have a huge second shocker that is waiting for them, let?s see what is this second shocker?, we know the first shocker is seeing the angels at the moment of death, now what the will angels of death will do to those wrong doers?
(50)? If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces and their backs, (saying) "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire-?
(51)?This is for that which your own hands have sent before (to the Judgment), and (know) that Allah is not a tyrant to His slaves.?
(50)
(51)-> Here is what the angels of death will do to those unbelievers ? If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces and their backs, (saying) ?Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire??, man this is horrific, how those people will handle that?, how they allow it to be a valid possibility and may be forced on them?, you see mate, if we consider all religions as one for argument sake, then we have two possibilities with no third
- There is a God (50%)
- There is no God (50%)
I?m trying to be fair and give each 50% possibility while quite the contrary I see it as there is a God 100% and 0% for the possibility of no God, but let?s be fair and make it 5050
If we take two humans ?a believer and a rejector? as our prime examples then we have the following scenarios
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There is No God, neither Account nor Punishment, then both of us are safe
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There is a God, an Account and Punishment then my unbeliever friend has put him/her self in big trouble indeed
This must force us to conclude that a real believer in God will always be safe and a God rejector must incur 50% chance to be humiliated eternally, how dumb a human can be more than this man?
It seems they see it as if a believer misses on some of the fun in this life, well, I have seen many believers who have far more decent life than many unbelievers hence a believer does not really miss on anything regarding this testing life because he/she chose to believe in God and be safe 100% regardless what the truth is. Some may argue and suggest that believing then is based on fear, well I guess if God said as such in his Quran as He said that WE MUST FEAR HIM AND HIS SEVERE PUNISHMENT. , then why not believing due to fear?
Some may still argue and tell me why you associate A God with both an Account and a Punishment?, well, because all the well known scriptures that are to be claimed sent by God said as such. Others who claim there is a God but he will not force a punishment need to provide compelling evidences regarding their allegation.
-> For those kind hearted unbelievers to be forced in eternal doom, would that be injustice?, well, I do not think so because after all these warnings sent to them, they simply ignored it and earned their punishment?This is for that which your own hands have sent before (to the Judgment),?, and sure Allah is Just ?and (know) that Allah is not a tyrant to His slaves.?
This bashing by the angels at the moment of death is stressed in anther location with explanation to why this will happen to them
(27)?But how (will it be) when the angels take their souls at death, and smite their faces and their backs??
(2?This because they followed that which called forth the Wrath of Allah, and they hated Allah's good pleasure; so He made their good deeds of no effect.?
(27)
(2-> ?But how (will it be) when the angels take their souls at death, and smite their faces and their backs??
-> And why this will happen to them? ? This because they followed that which called forth the Wrath of Allah, ? and also because ?and they hated Allah's good pleasure;? but what about their good deeds and their pure hearts? ?so He made their good deeds of no effect.? gone and forgotten, good luck to them.
The next verses are very interesting
(99)?But (In Falsehood will they be) Until, when death comes to one of them, he says "O my Lord! send me back (to life),-?
(100)?That I may do right in that which I have neglected! But nay! It is but a word that he speaketh; and behind them is a barrier until the day when they are raised.?
(99)
(100)-> The same message we read before that those unbelievers will ask to be sent back to life when death comes to them ?But (In Falsehood will they be) Until, when death comes to one of them, he says ?O my Lord! send me back (to life),??
-> They will see the truth with the eye of certainty and they will want to go back to fix what they neglected ?That I may do right in that which I have neglected!, and sure their request will be denied and not just this, the Quran is saying that they are heading to a place with a BARRIER that is preventing them from going back to life? be But nay! It is but a word that he speaketh; and behind them is a barrier until the day when they are raised.?, ok mate, this mentioned barrier that prevents them from going back until the day of resurrection sounds to me like something in a black hole, in fact the Arabic word Barzakh is the closest Arabic word to describe the event horizon of a black hole ?The barrier?, if you have read about black holes then you may know the followings
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We can?t see what is inside a black hole because light can?t escape its gravitational force, possibly it was designed this way by Allah so humans can?t see what is inside considering it a divine secret especially if the game for the souls imprisoned inside is over but for the others who still have their souls in their bodies, the games continues and they should not know that secret otherwise the test will be spoiled?, it is like knowing the answer without believing in the UNSEEN 23
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The event horizon of a black hole is really a barrier, because it is a point with no return, ie. if anything "even light" passes it, it can?t GO BACK, this sounds like the challenge that was given to us in the Quran that whatever we do we will not be able to return the soul back to the body.
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When the event horizon ?The barzakh? , "The barrier"is crossed, time will stop, ie. there is no feel of time inside a black hole, this makes great sense because if we sleep deeply 10 hours, when we wake up those 10 hours will never be felt as 10 hours neither felt as one second, there is no words to describe the feeling indeed other than time has possibly stopped. The Quran actually told us about this fact reagrding the time delusion when we are not awake "dead", it clearly informed us when the judgment day comes and the souls are returned to the bodies then we become awake again, we will feel that we only lasted an hour of a day
?One day He will gather them together (It will be) as if they had tarried but an hour of a day they will recognise each other assuredly those will be lost who denied the meeting with Allah and refused to receive true guidance.?
(45)
?It will be on a Day when He will call you, and ye will answer (His call) with (words of) His praise, and ye will think that ye tarried but a little while!?
(52)
55- ? On the Day that the Hour (of Reckoning) will be established, the transgressors will swear that they tarried not but an hour thus were they used to being deluded!?
56- ?But those endued with knowledge and faith will say ?Indeed ye did tarry, within Allah's Decree, to the Day of Resurrection, and this is the Day of Resurrection but ye - ye were not aware!??
(55)
(56)-> Please note that in 3056 we can see the people who are endued with knowledge and faith will be aware of that time delusion? those endued with knowledge and faith will say ?Indeed ye did tarry, within Allah's Decree, to the Day of Resurrection, and this is the Day of Resurrection but ye - ye were not aware!?
Ironically I met other Muslims who also reached the same conclusion that the Black holes are the cemeteries of the universe and the souls are imprisoned inside it until the judgment day.
To finish my long comment bro there will be no better than showing the verses that may indicate what I stated about proving LAD scientifically is not possible as this is one of the main fitnah (test) that we all are facing equally, it really comes to this for many people, how come after they turned to dust, they will be alive again?, that wonder was stressed many times in the Quran, here is a few examples
?And if you would wonder, then wondrous is their saying What! when we are dust, shall we then certainly be in a new creation? These are they who disbelieve in their Lord, and these have chains on their necks, and they are the inmates of the fire; in it they shall abide.?
(5)
-> It is very horrific to read above what sort of punishment is waiting for those unbelievers ? are they who disbelieve in their Lord, and these have chains on their necks, and they are the inmates of the fire; in it they shall abide.?
35- ?What! does he promise you that when you are dead and become dust and bones that you shall then be brought forth??
36- ?Far, far is that which you are promised with.?
37- ?There is naught but our life in this world; we die and we live and we shall not be raised again.?
(35)
(36)
(37)-> Above we see how they are sure that they shall not be raised - ?Far, far is that which you are promised with.? , ? There is naught but our life in this world; we die and we live and we shall not be raised again.?
81- ?Nay, they say the like of what the ancients said?
82- ?They say What! When we are dead and become dust and bones, shall we then be raised??
83- ?Certainly we are promised this, and (so were) our fathers before; this is naught but stories of those of old.?
(81)
(82)
(83)-> We can see here that what the atheist says now is exactly what was said by all previous generations ?They say What! When we are dead and become dust and bones, shall we then be raised??, ? Certainly we are promised this, and (so were) our fathers before; this is naught but stories of those of old.?
50- ?Then they will turn to one another and question one another.?
51- ?One of them will start the talk and say "I had an intimate companion (on the earth),?
52- ?Who said What! are you indeed of those who accept (the truth)??
53- ?What! when we are dead and have become dust and bones, shall we then be certainly brought to judgment??
54- ?He shall say Will you look on??
55- ?Then he looked down and saw him in the midst of hell.?
56- ?He shall say By Allah! you had almost caused me to perish;?
(50)
(51)
(52)
(53)
(54)
(55)
(56)-> The above verses are very interesting it talks about an incident that will happen on the judgment day when the wrong doers settle in Hell and the good doers and believers settle in paradise, a few on the heaven dwellers will ask each other about friends they knew but were unbelievers, those friends had that wonder of not comprehending how after becoming dust they will be raised again hence he died an unbeliever, someone Possibly God or an angel) heard the dialogue between the heaven dwellers and responded by allowing them to have a look at their mates on hell, what they saw was so horrific ?Then he looked down and saw him in the midst of hell.? , the point is the verses clearly stated that those people in the hell fire never believed in LAD
?Surely We have warned you of a chastisement near at hand the day when man shall see what his two hands have sent before, and the unbeliever shall say O! would that I were dust!?
(40)
-> And finally bro, those Kafarah will wish to be turned into dust, this is what they were wrongly sure about, that no one can raise them from dust, and because it will happen and the punishment will be severe they will wish to be turned back into dust.
I?m sorry bro about the long comment but I believe it is not a bad read at all, please ask any questions if you need further elaboration concerning any verse
Peace be with you
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Peace David,
1.) Life after Death--True or False?
True.
2.) Is Life after Death scientifically 'provable'?
I think it really depends on what avenue of science, and what discipline is implemented as "evidence". One of the books I've mentioned, "The Holographic Universe", cites examples across cultures and across generations of peoples' testimonies regarding near-death experiences. In the vast majority of cases, the experience was nearly identical, ie, soothing light, instant knowledge, wise and comforting companions, guides, etc.
But I don't think life after death can be "tested" in a lab, per se, with measurable evidence, since the very thing that's being tested is beyond the physical itself. It's like trying to weigh a thought.
These concepts will always have to be translated from one realm to the other.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace all,
Saladin
Logically, reviving is easier than creating for the first time . so giving life after death will be easier than giving the life for the first time .
Maybe for us, but I don't believe this is true for God.
What! do they not consider how Allah originates the creation, then reproduces it? Surely that is easy to Allah. (2919)
Say Travel in the earth and see how He makes the first creation, then Allah creates the latter creation; surely Allah has power over all things. (2920)Leena
Since it seems that a soul is also an unprovable concept, do you think the soul makes one exist, or is a physical shell the basis for existing? Is DNA a clue to what the soul is? How can LAD be proven, if the soul has not yet been found or proven? Is the soul an actual thing, as opposed to a mere concept or abstract representation? Lots of questions...
Well, this is just a guess. I believe the physical shell is the ?interface? that our soul uses to interact with the physical world, though I also feel that a soul without the physical shell can also interact with (or at least observe) the physical world. I don?t think DNA can tell us anything about the soul.
Yes, LAD cannot be proven unless the existence of a soul is first proven.Stillearning
Agree.
Ahmed
Thanks for the time spent in sharing those verses. It was a very good reminder.I have seen miracles in front of my eyes that one day will be eaten by the worms, believe me mate, I may tell you one , the one that I will never forget till I die, as it is engraved in my mind, let me know if you want to know it?
Yes, please share.
Tay
Many of the effects of near-death experience can be had by electrically stimulating the temporal lobes or by taking LSD.
Peoples? testimonies of their subjective experiences is not what I would consider scientific evidence. What is your method of verification? I assume that you have not personally had a near-death experience?Also, what does near-death experience prove?
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Peace David,
You stated
Many of the effects of near-death experience can be had by electrically stimulating the temporal lobes or by taking LSD.
And who knows what these stimuli are actually doing to the mind-body connection? That's my problem with an empirical approach to this sort of study. Just because you can cause it to happen in a lab does not mean the experience is completely physical.
Peoples? testimonies of their subjective experiences is not what I would consider scientific evidence.
Again, David, this is why I stated it really depends on what avenue of science, and what discipline is implemented as "evidence". Subjective testimony is enough to convict someone of murder in the USA. What I'm talking about is testimony that spans cultures and generations. When I hear about people all over the world over hundreds of years describing the same experience, I find it as worthy as a video.
I assume that you have not personally had a near-death experience?
I'm not sure. I've experienced something that I cannot really explain.
Also, what does near-death experience prove?
I guess it depends on who you ask. For those who've actually had these experiences while brain-dead or with a stopped heart, I think it proves that there is certainly life after death.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace all,
Saladin
Logically, reviving is easier than creating for the first time . so giving life after death will be easier than giving the life for the first time .
Maybe for us, but I don't believe this is true for God.
What! do they not consider how Allah originates the creation, then reproduces it? Surely that is easy to Allah. (2919)
Say Travel in the earth and see how He makes the first creation, then Allah creates the latter creation; surely Allah has power over all things. (2920)what ?
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salam.
some verses show how accurate the statements about the LAD are"Surely those who disbelieve our signs, We shall burn them at a fire. As often as
their skins are wholly burned, we shall give them in exchange other skins so that they may keep tasting the punishment ." (Koran 456)Full thickness burns destroy nerve endings so that further burning does not cause pain. The pin prick test is used to verify full thickness loss. The Koran informed us about this over 1400 years back when people knew nothing about full thickness and partial thickness burns and their anaesthetic effect.
http//rationalreality.50webs.com/bio.htm
LOCUSTS MOVING IN SWARMS
They will emerge from their graves with downcast eyes, like swarming locusts. (Qur'an, 547)
This verse describes all people's situation in the Hereafter as one resembling swarming locusts. There is great wisdom in this simile.
A great deal of information was obtained about locusts in the twentieth century by conducting wide-ranging studies using micro-cameras. Locust swarms contain huge numbers of individual locusts that behave as a single body. Coming together in swarms that are kilometres long and wide, they look just like a dark cloud. It has been established, for instance, that a single swarm of desert locusts can cover 1,200 square kilometres (460 square miles) and contain between 40 and 80 million locusts per square kilometre.157
In addition, they deposit their eggs in sandy soils like seeds and, after the larvae have remained underground for a long period of time, they all emerge together. After digging a 10-15 cm-long tunnel in the ground, a female locust lays 95-158 eggs at once. Females can lay eggs at least three times in their lifetime. When the larvae have matured after 10-65 days, depending on the air temperature, they emerge in a large group. Up to 1,000 egg pods have been found in one square metre. Locust swarms are large enough to cover several hundred square kilometres, with the number of adult locusts per square kilometre varying from between 40 to 80 million.158 Their long underground existence and sudden emergence in vast numbers all at the same time may resemble the resurrection of human beings on the Day of Judgement. (Allah knows best.)
Today, locusts are being studied by special units, which employ remote control imaging systems. Even NASA satellite data are used to identify areas in Africa where desert locust colonies have developed. Thanks to satellite data, it is possible to carry out wide-ranging research on land and in space over an 18 million square kilometre area.
http//harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_p1_10.php#2 -
salam.
4131 And from among His signs is that you see the land still, then, as soon as We send down the water upon it, it shakes and grows. Surely, the One who revived it can revive the dead. He is capable of all things.
also
RAINS WHICH BRING A DEAD LAND BACK TO LIFE
The rain's function of "bringing a dead land back to life" is indicated in several verses of the Qur'an
? We send down from heaven pure water so that by it We can bring a dead land to life and give drink to many of the animals and people We created. (Qur'an, 2548-49)
As well as bringing water, an essential requirement for living things, to the earth, the rain also has a fertilising property. Drops of rain which evaporate from the sea and reach the clouds contain certain substances which "revitalise" dead soil. These raindrops with such "revitalising" properties are called "surface tension droplets." These form from the top layer of the surface of the sea, called the micro-layer by biologists; in this surface layer, less than one-tenth of a millimetre thick, are found large quantities of organic waste formed from the decomposition of microscopic algae and zooplanktons. Some of these wastes collect and absorb elements such as phosphorus, magnesium and potassium, which are rarely found in sea water, as well as heavy metals such as copper, zinc, cobalt and lead. Seeds and plants on the surface of the earth receive large quantities of the mineral salts and elements they need to grow from these raindrops. The Qur'an refers to this in these terms
And We sent down blessed water from the sky and made gardens grow by it and grain for harvesting. (Qur'an, 509)
These salts which descend with the rain are examples in miniature of fertilisers traditionally used to enhance productivity (calcium, magnesium, potassium etc.). Heavy metals of the kind found in aerosols create elements which increase productivity during growth and production of plants. In short, rain is an important fertiliser. With the fertiliser which provided by rain alone, within a hundred years, a soil of poor quality can obtain all the elements necessary for plants. Forests also grow and are nourished with help from these chemicals which originate from the sea.
In this way, every year some 150 million tons of particles of fertiliser fall to earth. Were it not for this fertilising function, there would have been far fewer plants on the Earth and the balance of life would have been disturbed. The information about the revitalisation of plants in the verse is just one of the countless miraculous properties of the Qur'an.
http//harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_p1_06.php#5 -
Yes, please share.
Hello David
This real story will freak you out bro as it did to me 14 years ago, since then it is like happened yesterday, I can?t forget it mate, it is engraved in my brain
I migrated to Australia 15 years ago, a few months after, I heard in the news that the Australian government wants a Muslim who can speak Arabic to manage the Muslim burial section in Rookwood cemetery (the second biggest cemetery in the world ? 283 acres )
I applied for the Job and the Executive Manger of the Cemetery liked me and gave me another Job, Assistant Manager to the Executive of All Rookwood and the Manager of the Muslim Section
My role was to create a database to store the burial records and to make sure the labourers do the burial right regarding location, dimension and method of burial, they just used to burry any deceased any where in their section and I tell you mate, they wasted a lot of land, in fact the Muslim burial land is about to be filled up in under a year and then we will have no burial land in Sydney
The deceased graves were in rows, at each end of the whole graves we can add a new grave, they used to do it in a way the Lebanese/Arabs in one end and the Turkish and others in another end.
One day we had a deceased, I read his file and recognised that he was a 29 years old Muslim who died of Aids, I actually knew how it happened, as the story was told in the Friday Salat speech to warn other young Muslims from falling to this sin and the consequences in this life may be drastic.
We buried that young Muslim guy and life went one, a week later we had another burial and she was an old Lebanese woman who died natural death, she was buried at the other end and life just went on
A few days later while I was investigating the Muslim burial land I found a man about 50 years old sitting on that woman grave and sort of reading the Quran, I approached him and said Salam he responded and I noticed straightaway how peaceful and kind that man is, we had a discussion then I asked him about the deceased, he told me that she is his aunty, I actually thought that she was his mother due to his humbling while he was visiting her grave, so my impression that this family seems a very decent family.
A couple of days later I met that man again while he was visiting his aunty grave. In the burial ground they had a pile of bricks that they use inside the graves to build the small chamber where the body will be laid, the grave dimension is 80cm (width), 250cm (length) and 220 cm depth, the body is laid at the bottom then they arrange the bricks all around the body at a hight of about 50 cm then they lay concrete slabs on the brick to close the chamber, then the rest of the 220 depth which is 220 ? 50 = 170 cm will be filled with soil on top of the concrete slabs. Many of the Muslims were stealing those bricks to use it for building monuments on top of the graves, very sad indeed, and I felt it will be ugly to warn them not to do it so I left it for them open, when I saw that kind man visiting his aunty grave, I approached him and said Salam, he responded the asked me if he can buy a few of these bricks to surround the grave with it ?like a small monument?, man, I was so humbled by that man honesty and kindness to his aunty, he refused to help himself freely and take the bricks and asked me to pay for it first, of course I declined and I told him to take whatever bricks he wants for free and he did with hesitance ?quality you hardly see bro?
Life went on for about two to three months and there was no burial during this time. Then we had one and he was a non Arab and has to be next to the 29 years old deceased who died of Aids after sleeping with an infected whore in a park in the Arab Suburb Lakemba.
The graves in the rows are 40 cm apart, I parked my car close to where the digging will happen then the labourer came with the backhoe and started digging with its hydraulic bucket 40 cm next to the 29 years old grave ?we have to make it as close as possible so we don?t waste the land, however this 40 cm wall between the graves is actually too thin and the wall will be vulnerable for collapse while the next grave is being dug , when he reached the 220 cm depth of the new grave, all of a sudden the 40 cm wall between it and the next grave (The 29 years old guy) collapsed
Mate, when this happened HELL BROKE, the worst smell I have ever smelled in my whole life bro ?I swear with the might of Allah?, you see I have seen many rotten corpses of animals in the streets of Cairo and smelled their stinky rotten smell and sure the smell was unbearable, however bro that was the first time I smell a rotten human two months after death, and I can say with confidence that it was the worst and ugly smell I have ever smelled in my whole entire life, I just have to run bro, in fact I could not even go t the car 5 meters away and drive in it I just ran as far as I can reach bro to avoid the bomb that all of a sudden exploded, what a nightmare that was bro
Well I was horrified that I felt all of us will have to go through this and I tell you man I really can?t see myself going though that, I know I will be forced to go through it but I was so worried about myself that how the hell I can stand this smell coming of me inside a closed grave?
I freaked out for about a week bro, my body was shaking and my spirit just went down the drain. Then we had a Lebanese deceased, ie. he should be buried at the other end, next to the old lady grave who died at the same period exactly as the Aids victim and was buried like two days after him
They marked the new grave 40 cm next to the old lady grave and started digging with the backhoe, they reached the 220 cm depth and I got the feeling that the wall will not collapse, so I got closer and stood at the edge of the old woman monument ?the surrounding bricks? then all of a sudden bro the wall collapsed big times and the old lady grave was wide open while I?m standing at the tip of it.
What do you think happened next bro?
Well, can you believe this, the air all of a sudden became fresher and absolutely no stinky smell in any way, I was standing almost on it bro and it was wide open and NO SMELL WHATSOEVER, in fact there was a breath of fresh air that all of a sudden blew, Man what a shocker, it was a nice one though, it resolved all the anxiety I had for about a week, I was so delighted that I felt what I read is true then, that some will have to experience horrific consequences inside the grave and others won?t
I?m sure bro that the ones who won?t are very rare, it is like every one in every 1000 grave or so, just a wild guess to give you a feeling that the common thing to happen is to have a stinky grave and possibly that is why we think that all of us must go through this, the question is why Allah does this to a humbled slave who belived hard in Him?, I believe He will not and I have seen it with my own eyes and I thank Him humbly for this great message that is very rare to happen to any human, that is why I keep telling it to anyone interested to hear it, It happened bro and Allah is my witness
Two days later I went to the Aids victim and thought to myself, Allah can forgive any sins except shirk, for example if I get hit by Aids ?god forbids?, I have two options bro
- To submit to Allah and recognise my mistakes and repent then ask for forgiveness
- To rebel against Him as if why He chose me and hit me with a lethal disease
My guess that the 29 years old guy went with option 2, Allah knows best
So I spoke to the 29 years old dead man while I?m standing on his grave telling him
?Did you find what God has promised you?? then I read the Fatiha to him and left
Peace be with you
Thanks for reading
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Peace Ahmed,
Thanks for that story. It is part of God?s mercy that He sends us signs to strengthen our resolve and our faith. It must have been a very powerful message for you to remember it so clearly.
Based on my experience, and in talking to others, these types of signs are remembered in detail even decades after they occur, and they often have profound and long lasting effects on people, including increased empathy and intuition.
peace
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Peace Tay,
And who knows what these stimuli are actually doing to the mind-body connection? That's my problem with an empirical approach to this sort of study. Just because you can cause it to happen in a lab does not mean the experience is completely physical.
So if you can cause it to happen in a lab, which would explain it in a purely biological manner, you would reject that as evidence for a completely physical experience, and rather go with something that you don?t know. Is this your process of verification?
Again, David, this is why I stated it really depends on what avenue of science, and what discipline is implemented as "evidence".
Okay, explain to me what avenue of science you have used, and what methodology you have employed to verify LAD.
Subjective testimony is enough to convict someone of murder in the USA. What I'm talking about is testimony that spans cultures and generations. When I hear about people all over the world over hundreds of years describing the same experience, I find it as worthy as a video.
People all over the world and over hundreds of years also describe experiences with UFOs. Do you find that as worthy as a video as well?
I'm not sure. I've experienced something that I cannot really explain.
If you?d like to share, I?d be interested.
I guess it depends on who you ask. For those who've actually had these experiences while brain-dead or with a stopped heart, I think it proves that there is certainly life after death.
I agree that personal experience can be extremely powerful, and it is certainly a very important way in which we can know about ourselves, the universe, and God.
However, it is not scientific or objective.peace
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Peace Saladin,
First of all, I firmly believe in LAD. Where we differ is that I don?t think it is scientifically provable.
You wrote
Logically, reviving is easier than creating for the first time . so giving life after death will be easier than giving the life for the first time
Sorry if I was wasn?t clear. My response was that although this statement is ?logical? for us humans, I don?t think it applies to God, in that whether creating for the first time or reviving/reproducing for the second, third, fourth?. time doesn?t carry any notion of ?easier?, as the first creation was not ?difficult? to begin with.
Lastly, thanks for those verses, though nothing of what you posted showed scientific evidence for LAD.
peace
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Peace David,
So if you can cause it to happen in a lab, which would explain it in a purely biological manner, you would reject that as evidence for a completely physical experience, and rather go with something that you don?t know. Is this your process of verification?
This may get a little tricky so please bear with me...
I agree that if a process is caused to happen in a lab, then the evidence is clearly biological. But, I do not agree that the process is caused by the physical exclusively in all instances.Let's say someone has a near-death experience. For the sake of argument, let's agree that near-death experiences are the real thing. Now, in the process of the soul leaving the body, the body then goes through some physical cycles as a result, ie, elevated activity in the temporal region of the brain. So, the cause of the physical cycles is the near-death experience. Now, you're in a lab, and stimulate this same area of the brain, and get the same results. This only proves that you've duplicated the physical aspects of the experience. It does not prove that there was not a spiritual aspect in the first place, which would be lacking in the experiment.
Does that make sense?
Okay, explain to me what avenue of science you have used, and what methodology you have employed to verify LAD.
I have not done any research on the topic. LAD has been a truth for me for a long time, since I've experienced some spiritual phenomena that cannot be explained by science.
However, what I was referring to was something different entirely. I don't have the book in front of me but I promise I will cite the references for you. One case in particular involved a scientist who set out to disprove NDE's and eventually wrote a book in full support of it after interviewing hundreds of children who had these experiences.
People all over the world and over hundreds of years also describe experiences with UFOs. Do you find that as worthy as a video as well?
No. UFO testimony varies greatly. Consistency over cultures and generations is what I find as valid.
If you?d like to share, I?d be interested.
I'll pm you the experience shortly, as it's kind of personal.
I agree that personal experience can be extremely powerful, and it is certainly a very important way in which we can know about ourselves, the universe, and God.
However, it is not scientific or objective.Of course, it is not scientific, nor should it be. Science is perfect right where it is. wink
Peace,
Tay -
salam.
First of all, I firmly believe in LAD. Where we differ is that I don?t think it is scientifically provable.
i see. i personally think that in time , we will be able to raise the dead , just like jesus did .
You wrote
Logically, reviving is easier than creating for the first time . so giving life after death will be easier than giving the life for the first time
Sorry if I was wasn?t clear. My response was that although this statement is ?logical? for us humans, I don?t think it applies to God, in that whether creating for the first time or reviving/reproducing for the second, third, fourth?. time doesn?t carry any notion of ?easier?, as the first creation was not ?difficult? to begin with.
i was replying to your statement that
I agree with Ahmed. I think belief in LAD is part of the test, and I don't think it is reasonable scientifically speaking.
you were talking about what is reasonable to us , right ? i replied that it is very reasonable (not for God , He can do anything He wants, but for us). as i said before , scientists have already considered reviving the dead .