Virgin Birth
-
Hi Sufi,
I have a few questions
- Who, are u implying, had klinefelter's syndrome?
*And what does Mary's virgin pregnancy have anything to do with klinefelter's? - What does the verse in arabic u have quoted, translate as? I dont understand arabic. So, can u be kind to translate it?
And where is that verse from?
And Klinefelter's are male with hypogonidism(they have male sex organs but smaller and dysfunctional ones) and hence mostly infertile(becoz of very low sperm count or no sperm count in the ejaculate), and also have gynaecomastia(breasts like female).The physical features of Klinefelter syndrome are caused by abnormally low production of the male sex hormones.
Klinefelter syndrome usually does not cause mental retardation, but affected males test slightly lower than their brothers and sisters on IQ testing. They also may have problems talking and hearing.
http//www.healthopedia.com/klinefelter-syndrome/
So, part of the information u have quoted on klinefelter's is wrong.Peace!
- Who, are u implying, had klinefelter's syndrome?
-
As Salaam Alaikum Truth,
So you don't believe that Mary was a virgin?
salam
-
As Salaam Alaikum Truth,
So you don't believe that Mary was a virgin?
salam
Peace,
She was up to a point in her life by definition wasn't she. The myth of "Virgin Mary" started hundreds of years following Jesus. It was an attempt by the followers to glorify this ordinary woman and the myth evolved over time. At first it was the virgin birth of Jesus but allowance for later sexuality (Jesus had brothers & sisters); then it developed so that she was a virgin for life with denial of future children having come from her; later it was asserted that Mary's body did not rot after a year in the ground (the Jewish practice was to bury bodies for a year and then preserve the bones after that time); and finally as late as the 1950's the Catholic myth about Mary became such that it was official doctrine that Mary was actually taken up to heaven and is a living and eternal virgin.
It's all myth, and all a vain attempt at glorification of a human being. We must not buy into this sort of thing which rubs up against our intellect which the God gives us and expects us to use fully - never to suspend.
The thread link in my post above basically explains my view, but if there's any other issues then I'm willing to discuss them.
See the God makes no hardship to us. A virgin birth is not about faith - it's about a clash with physical laws - and that to me is intellectual hardship.
Regards.
-
First of all only the infidels (unfaithful ones) do not believe in the virgin birth. To call infidels enlightened is very strange indeed.
Secondly Klinefeld's syndrome and Klinefeld's mosaic are two different things. in the mosaic there are two people born in one body. The physical appearance of a mosaic the body's gender ranges across the spectrum from to all intents and purpouses female to absolutely male at the other end, if male it will be sterile, but in Klinefeld's mosaic the body can be a fuly functioning female. In the even the body if female can under very special conditions give birth to her trwin brother. Every miracle is in line with the laws of Allah (SWT)'s creation, and the line "Allah knew better what she had delivered Male not like the female" is very interesting indeed. Technically though to all intents and purposes a woman, xx/xxy the presence of the y chromosome means genetically male. There is no way such sophisticated chimera genetic anomalies could be understood by even a genius back in the 7th century and judging by the responses here it seems is still beyond the grasp of some minds even in the modern world.
I will not argue though because there are some people who simply cannot believe, even when you explain the miracles of Allah they will still not believe. The Quran says a lot about this phenomenon among some people who say "We believe".
-
Peace The Sufi,
You stated
First of all only the infidels (unfaithful ones) do not believe in the virgin birth.
Please quote the surah and ayah to supports your accusation.
judging by the responses here it seems is still beyond the grasp of some minds even in the modern world.
Thanks for the enlightenment and putting us in our place, your highness wink
Peace,
Tay -
In case you were not being sarcastic, I am not any Highness. In case you were being sarcastic, it is wrong to belittle the importance of the meaning of the word "peace" by posting it at the start and end of a snide remark, and if humour was intended it is not good etiquette to jest with someone you do not know but either way, you have my appologies for making you resort to sarcasm Tay, no personal attack on anyone was ever intended even upon any heathens/pagans reading what I write.
You can choose which sentence above applies to you.
With regards to your other comment, in case you mean Quran "Alone" and will not accept the authority of other islamic records, I should state clearly that I personally am against the idea of Quran "Alone" movements because at some point one has to rely upon other documents in order to understand the Quran, and I personally would much rather rely upon traditional religious documents than innovative or anti-theist secular ones. Even so, here is what I can recall from the Quran Alone on the matter.
According to 4156, 575, 1920, 19128, 2191 and 6612 Marym (PBUH) was most chaste. How is Marym (PBUH) a portent 2350 otherwise? What favour 342 5110 was bestowed upon her that no other prophet's mother is referred to as a sign and she is preferred above all women of creation? When the Jibrail told Zakkaria that he would have a son as an old man he had reason to doubt, but Marym as a young girl why would she be so surprised 347, 1920 unless she had been vowed to chastity?
Outside of the Quran we learn about the circumstances her betrothal to Yusuf (PBUH) and how contact between them was not possible while she was under Zakkaria (PBUH)'s guardianship with her residing in the temple, but there is no mention of any kind of husband at all in the Quran alone, so would not this positive ommission hold important relevance for Quran Aloners?
-
Salaam Alleikum Sufi
Qur'an has not recorded the personal lives of previous Prophets including Prophet Muhammad (SAW) marriges and personal tragedies. Qur'an did not tell us the name of Prohet Musa's father. That does not mean that Prophet Musa's was born without father. Qur'an has not recorded the Mariam's marriage just like all other Prophet marriages.
Nobody is beeing sarcastic to you. All you need is more research and you will come to the same conclusion that Prophet Isa was born just like all other humans.
I will look into verses again but my understanding is that Prophet Isa was the son of Joseph.
-
KGB I am glad you agree with me that Quran Alone is a flawed approach to understanding the lives of the prophets (PBUT).
Please do look into all 9 verses (10th supplied by vizard). BTW thank you for assuring me that Tay was not being sarcastic. But when I said I am not a Highness I did not mean to give the impression that I am not a veteran student of islam either. But I will of course continue to research and study more as I alwys have just as you advised.
-
Huh?
She said, "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me; I have never been unchaste."
He said, "Thus said your Lord, `It is easy for Me. We will render him a sign for the people, and mercy from us. This is a predestined matter.'"Peace,
Just a reminder that there is a difference between chasteness and virginity. A woman can be chaste and not be a virgin - a woman who has married in the proper way and divorced similarly remains chaste.
As for no man has touched her - she is exclaiming surprise at an event that is forecast.
The conception takes place at a later time - just like the news given to Zacchariah; the baby doesn't miraculously appear in her womb; but takes the natural course ie. takes 9 months gestation etc.
Mary is thus told news of events to happen and she is merely surprised. This passage does not mean that something miraculous has just happenned.
Regards.
-
salaam
In the even the body if female can under very special conditions give birth to her trwin brother.
What on earth are you talking about?
regards -
Peace The Sufi,
I was being sarcastic. My apologies if you're offended. Your comment was deserving of a reply, however. Perhaps I could have been more graceful but when one mentions that their understanding is "beyond the grasp" of others, I think he/she should be called out on it, as it denotes an air of arrogance - hence the "highness" comment.
You've apologized and I've apologized so let it be water under the bridge.
You stated
How is Marym (PBUH) a portent 2350 otherwise?
2350 And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs.
Are you suggesting that the only way Maryam and Isa could be signs is if there was an immaculate conception? Is this your position?
What favour 342 5110 was bestowed upon her that no other prophet's mother is referred to as a sign and she is preferred above all women of creation?
The favor mentioned in this context(5110) has nothing to do with the method of impregnation, but clearly it implies the support of "the holy spirit".
When the Jibrail told Zakkaria that he would have a son as an old man he had reason to doubt, but Marym as a young girl why would she be so surprised 347, 1920 unless she had been vowed to chastity?
Simply because she didn't have sex yet
would not this positive ommission hold important relevance for Quran Aloners?
Just to be clear, there is no "Qur'an Alone" doctrine. Nevertheless, I'm not sure what a positive ommission is. What I am sure of is that God does not run out of words. Clearly, a simple, "Isa was born without a father" would have done justice and cleared up any confusion, especially considering the paramount implications of such an event, had it occurred. The fact that Isa's father is not named is not, by any means, unique within the Qur'an.
Peace,
Tay -
Hi sufi,
Secondly Klinefeld's syndrome and Klinefeld's mosaic are two different things. in the mosaic there are two people born in one body. The physical appearance of a mosaic the body's gender ranges across the spectrum from to all intents and purpouses female to absolutely male at the other end, if male it will be sterile, but in Klinefeld's mosaic the body can be a fuly functioning female. In the even the body if female can under very special conditions give birth to her trwin brother.
?? Where did u get ur information, that they are females with female gonads???
All intents and purposes, female to absoluetly male?????????says who?
Two people in one body????????says who?Mosaic Klinefelter syndrome occurs when some of the cells in the body have an extra X chromosome and the other have normal male chromosomes. These males can have the same or milder symptoms than non-mosaic Klinefelter syndrome.
http//www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/klinefelter_syndrome.jsp.Mosaicism for Klinefelter Syndrome may be different from non-mosaic Klinefelter Syndrome in three ways (1) fertility may be possible in some adult men; (2) developmental delay is less likely; (3) signs of Klinefelter may be more subtle.
http//www.chromodisorder.org/sytrix/card_list.php3?dbid=63&id=584So, u see, they are males. In mosaicism, the symptoms of klienfelters can be less severe, becoz some cells have normal male karyoptype (xy) and some have the klienfelter karyotype(xxy), unlike non mossaic cases who have abnormal pattern in all their cells.
Peace!
-
salaam
In the even the body if female can under very special conditions give birth to her trwin brother.
What on earth are you talking about?
regardsKeyboard problems. In the event the body is female, it can under very special conditions (temperature & diet) give birth (via monogenesis) to her twin brother.
I am talking about genetic mosaic/chimera anomalies -specifically Klinefeld's mosaic.
@peacefulmuslim
It seems you are not uderstanding the causes of mosaicism properly. Do you knowwhat a genetic chimera is? Also there are several different ways to define gender, the presence of the y chromosome is just one.P.S. I am no genetics expert but at dinner with genetics experts the condition was explained to me in very simple terms. Twins one klinefelter syndrome boy one normal girl are reabsorbed at stem-cell stage into one mosaic/chimera body which to all intents and purposes looks & thinks female except for the fact that her twin brother has been merged with her. If monogenesis were to occur -which can occur in all mamals- there is a 50/50 chance that she can either give birth to her clone or to her "dead" twin brother instead. I am pretty certain they did say this is a klinefeld mosaic.
-
Salaam Alleikum Sufi
342 Does not say anything that Mariam will be a virgin mother. The verse is very clear that Allah Taala informed Mariam that she is chosen and purified to give birth to one of His messanger. Read it with 343 which makes the prior verse easy to understand where she is informed about her duties.
Start reading Sura An Nisaa from verse 150 it will be clear that Allah Taala is talking about the Jews and the previous Prophets. Verse 4156 is a reference to Jews who hate Mariam and spread stories about her character, you can still find these in Judaism literature.
Verse 575, 5110 does not prove that Prophet Isa was born without a father.
7150 Yusuf Ali When Moses came back to his people, angry and grieved, he said "Evil it is that ye have done in my place in my absence did ye make haste to bring on the judgment of your Lord?" He put down the tablets, seized his brother by (the hair of) his head, and dragged him to him. Aaron said "Son of my mother! the people did indeed reckon me as naught, and went near to slaying me! Make not the enemies rejoice over my misfortune, nor count thou me amongst the people of sin."
2094 Yusuf Ali (Aaron) replied "O son of my mother! Seize (me) not by my beard nor by (the hair of) my head! Truly I feared lest thou shouldst say, 'Thou has caused a division among the children of Israel, and thou didst not respect my word!'"
Do you believe that Moses were also born without father? I believe it was the customs and traditions of ancient civilisation to identify children with their mothers.
Read the whole Sura 19 - Mariam which never said anything about giving birth as a virgin.
Regarding verse 6612 I can say it safely that Allah Taala blown the spirits in all humans.
-
How on earth could Mohammad (PBUH) have such intricate knowledge of genetic anomalies?
Subahanallah!
Salam brother
I believe I'm confused here mate, i need your help to clear it out
The verse posted is not about the birth of Isa while Mariam was a virgin, verse 336 is talking about the birth of Mariam herself,?
But if you mean Mariam was a virgin when she delivered Isa some years later, yes she was 100% a virgin and I agree with you if that is what you meant
The reason that she must be a virgin is simply she was born a virgin then SHE "HERSELF" SAID WHEN SHE KNEW THAT SHE WILL BE PREGANANT SOON THAT NO MAN TOUCHED HER, HENCE SHE MUST HAVE BEEN A VIRGIN
i wonder the muslims who say that Isa had a father, where they got this from?
Subhana Allah brother it is like Allah knows what they say and He is responding to them
"Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was. "
(59)
I wonder why Allah chose Isa ONLY to tell us that the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.
Peace be with you bro
-
In the verse I quoted the cryptic phrase "male not like the female" is what caught my attention. Klinefeld mosaic xx/xxy is technically "male not like the female" even though to all intents and purpouses appears and thinks like a female. The argument against the Monogenesis of Isa (PBUH) is that a mother can only monogenesis a daughter because no y chromosome is present in her genetic make up, but in the unique klinefeld mosaic, she can Monogenesis a boy. That is what this thread is about.