The process of creation [heavens and earth]?

Raj-ah

Salaam

For some of Us the Quran contains No miracles, Scientific or whatever.
This thought is due to confusion we will try to clear it up as we go ahead, but let us start with Agent triple X.

But he needed six days for creation?
Quote
117-He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was over the Waters that He might try you which of you is best in conduct. But if thou wert to say to them "Ye shall indeed be raised up after death" the Unbelievers would be sure to say "This is nothing but obvious sorcery!"

or 8 days according to these verses?
Quote
419?Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters) Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.
4110?He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;
4111?Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient.
4112?Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and we decked the lower heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.in Might Full of knowledge.

According to verse 91011- he created the earth, placed firm hills rising above it, blessed it and measured therein its provisions and then he turned to heavens which was smoke?
What I understand is that when God created earth there was nothing else except God and smoke?

The confusion arises only if you wrongly translate summa as ?then? only then would this verse contradict the Big-bang theory and other verses of the Quran. Therefore the correct translation of the word summa is ?moreover? or ?simultaneously?. Ahmad Bhagat or any other Arabic native what do you say??? about this translation.
?It is who has created for you all things on the earth (summa)simultaneously (while) making the heaven into seven firmaments?.

This could be expalined by a Scholar's following remarks

If a builder says that he will construct a 10-storey building and surrounding compound wall in six months and after completion of his project he gives a more detailed account saying that the basement of the building was built in two months and the 10 storeys took four months and simultaneously, while the basement and the building was being constructed, he also constructed the surrounding of the building along with the compound wall which took two months. Therefore both his first and second descriptions are not contradicting but the second statement gives a more detailed account for the construction.

Agent wrote

Heaven and earth were one piece
Quote
2130?Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and We made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?

Yes they were one.
This is a Proven fact according to the "Big bang theory".
Every living thing from water is Yet another proven scientific fact.

but heaven was smoke

Quote
4111?Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient.

Yes it was.
The word actualy used is "Dakhan" Ahmed Bhagat may better understand it. This is another sceintific proven fact that earth was covered with gaseous material like smoke.

These were discussed in detail if you like to read my debate at www.infidelguy.com with some atheists.

Now when Quran says that 'life started from water" this is a scientific fact for us, but one who has created it is normality. Similarly who is inventor of Camera it is a simple laws working for him but for people may be like me it is a miracle "how by just one click I am saved forever in the eyes of camera".
There are numerous prophesies and Scientific facts mentioned in Quran, for some it may be Miracles but actually they are Just facts.

He first created earth?
Quote
229?He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is Knower of all things

No He first created heaven?
Quote
7927?Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built?
7928?He raised the height thereof and ordered it;
7929?And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof.
7930?And after that He spread the earth,

432?By the Book that makes things clear

It makes things clear no doubt, but you need a rational way of thinking.
The rest was explained above.

2117?The Originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only Be! and it is.

This verse is telling us about the authority of Allah and not the time period at all.

unknownuser

Peace

I agree with Raj-ah the arbic words "Thumma" has two meaning "Then" and "Moreover"

the use of the word is based on the context and other words used along with "Thumma", the Quran has given us numerous examples of all possible use of the word "Thumma", this is a subject that I started writing about already and when finsihed I will add it to this thread

peace be with all

agentxxx

peace raj-ah,
brother thank you for your comments.
you wrote

The confusion arises only if you wrongly translate summa as ?then? only then would this verse contradict the Big-bang theory and other verses of the Quran. Therefore the correct translation of the word summa is ?moreover? or ?simultaneously?. Ahmad Bhagat or any other Arabic native what do you say??? about this translation.
?It is who has created for you all things on the earth (summa)simultaneously (while) making the heaven into seven firmaments?.

This could be expalined by a Scholar's following remarks

If a builder says that he will construct a 10-storey building and surrounding compound wall in six months and after completion of his project he gives a more detailed account saying that the basement of the building was built in two months and the 10 storeys took four months and simultaneously, while the basement and the building was being constructed, he also constructed the surrounding of the building along with the compound wall which took two months. Therefore both his first and second descriptions are not contradicting but the second statement gives a more detailed account for the construction.

brother i did not translate the word, it was done by the scholars who translated Quran . A person like me who is not familiar with the arabic language has to depend upon the translation rather then the arabic content. it seems to me that most of the arabic words can be translated into many different meanings and hence most of the verse of Quran can be interpreted into various different ways, according to ones own liking or understanding, and because of this flexability they can also be interpreted to make them compatable with the scientific discoveries too.
what i want to know is why would all these scholars and academies translate it wrongly? and why their translations are aproved to be authentic by the relavent authorities? from where can i get a translation which is error free?
a builder has to depend on lot of other factors, like supply of material, labour force, approval from the relevant deptt etc. but the Almighty is omnipotent or is he also dependent on other factors?
also if a builder says he constructed a 20 storey building in 60 days, but in his detailed account the total number of days adds up to 66, what would you believe to be the thruth? may be it again has to do something with the translation i dont know?
would you kindly explain what is meant by the the seven firmaments?
God bless you.

unknownuser

Hello all

instead of writing a long comment I will just show examples from the Quran one after another as I see them, here is my first one that clearly shows "Thumma" means within the context "MOREOVER" however all 3 translations got it wrong as "Then"

YUSUFALI The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him "Be". And he was.

PICKTHAL Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him Be! and he is.

SHAKIR Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.

(59)

-> How come Allah created Adam from dust THEN said the word BE?

it does not make sense unless Allah created Adam from dust MOREOVER said the word BE and he was.

Allah knows best

peace be with all

unknownuser

Hello

Here is a very good example that will show us how the context control the Arabic word ?Thumma?, the verses are 1968-70, please note I posted three common translations

68- YUSUFALI ?So, by thy Lord, without doubt, We shall gather them together, and (also) the Evil Ones (with them); then shall We bring them forth on their knees round about Hell;?

68- PICKTHAL ?And, by thy Lord, verily We shall assemble them and the devils, then We shall bring them, crouching, around hell.?

68- SHAKIR ?So by your Lord! We will most certainly gather them together and the Shaitans, then shall We certainly cause them to be present round hell on their knees.?

69- YUSUFALI ?Then shall We certainly drag out from every sect all those who were worst in obstinate rebellion against (Allah) Most Gracious.?

69- PICKTHAL Then We shall pluck out from every sect whichever of them was most stubborn in rebellion to the Beneficent.?

69- SHAKIR ?Then We will most certainly draw forth from every sect of them him who is most exorbitantly rebellious against the Beneficent Allah?

70- YUSUFALI ?And certainly We know best those who are most worthy of being burned therein.?

70- PICKTHAL ?And surely We are Best Aware of those most worthy to be burned therein.?

70- SHAKIR ?Again We do certainly know best those who deserve most to be burned therein.?

(6

(69)

(70)

The verses are talking about some of what will happen in the Judgment day

-> Verse 1968, is giving us a sequence as follow

We will most certainly gather them together and the Shaitans
We certainly cause them to be present round hell

Between these two incidents we have the word ?Thumma?, and we can clearly understand that the two incidents can not happen together rather one after the other, consequently ?Thumma? should be translated as ?Then? as all three translators agreed.

-> Verse 1969, gives us another incident that will happen after the first two incidents listed in verse 1968

We will most certainly draw forth from every sect of them him who is most exorbitantly rebellious against the Beneficent Allah

And surely ?Thumma? at the start of sequence 3 must mean ?Then? as undersatood from the context, we can also see that all translators agreed.

-> Verse 1970, we will see another event listed after the word ?Thumma?, however the event CAN?T HAPPEN AFTER THE 3 EVENTS LISTED ABOVE IN VERSE 1968-69, let?s look at the event

We do certainly know best those who deserve most to be burned therein

Event 4 in verse 1970 can not happen after the 3 events listed in verses 1968-69, we see that the verse started with the word ?Thumma? but all translators translated it as

70- YUSUFALI ?And certainly?

70- PICKTHAL ?And surely?

70- SHAKIR ?Again?

Which clearly means "Moreover"

Clear as light I guess.

I will show you next Inshaallah how the context can control the word ?Thumma? with additional words used in the sentence

Peace be with all

unknownuser

Hello

Sorry for the delay to add this final explanation of the word ?Thumma?, been flat out

Just to recap, ?Thumma? can mean ?Moreover? or ?Then?, the context of the sentence will be the only criteria to determine the meaning of ?Thumma? also other verses may confirm that meaning if found talking about the same thing

However, there is two Arabic words that can be added to the sentence and consequently it will render ?Thumma? to mean ONE thing only which is ?Then?.

Those two Arabic words are ?Min Ba?ad? , literally means ?After?, this must render ?Thumma? means ?Then? Only. The Quran has given us many examples, in fact Sura no 2 alone has plenty, here is a few examples, ?Thumma? will be highlighted in Red and ?Min Ba?ad? will be highlighted in blue, English translation is by SHAKIR

?And when We appointed a time of forty nights with Musa, then you took the calf (for a god) after him and you were unjust.?

(51)

?Then We pardoned you after that so that you might give thanks.?

(52)

?Then We raised you up after your death that you may give thanks.?

(56)

?Then you turned back after that; so were it not for the grace of Allah and His mercy on you, you would certainly have been among the losers.?

(64)

?Then your hearts hardened after that, so that they were like rocks, rather worse in hardness; and surely there are some rocks from which streams burst forth, and surely there are some of them which split asunder so water issues out of them, and surely there are some of them which fall down for fear of Allah, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.?

(74)

-> From the above we can clearly see that the word ?Thumma? can be controlled with other words mostely ?Min Ba?d? if not all the times indeed, to make it means ?Then? only, ie. two events, one after another, the reason is simply ?Min Ba?ad? means ?After?

We will see how the verses regarding the earth creation fit within the above next inshaallah

Allah knows best

Fahad1

salam agentxxx .
i will try to answer these .

2117?The Originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only Be! and it is.

54 50?And Our commandment is but one (commandment), as the twinkling of an eye.

But he needed six days for creation?

"needed"? God doesnt NEED anything . He does as He will . it took HIM six days , because HE willed six days .

or 8 days according to these verses?
Quote
419?Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters) Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.
4110?He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;
4111?Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient.
4112?Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and we decked the lower heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.in Might Full of knowledge.

1st day -2nd day the creation of earth.
3rd - 6th day sustinance/provisions .
5th - 6th day creation of seven heavens .

six days in all .

According to verse 91011- he created the earth, placed firm hills rising above it, blessed it and measured therein its provisions and then he turned to heavens which was smoke?
What I understand is that when God created earth there was nothing else except God and smoke?

the heavens mentioned in the verse are , i believe , seven atmospheric layers, the seven heavens , (one above another, each having its duty , as other verses explain) .
so when God created earth , there were things other than God and smoke .

Heaven and earth were one piece
Quote
2130?Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and We made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?

before the big bang , yes . the heavens and earth were a single unit . God parted them .

what i have read in some articles is that the gravity of the singularity point before the big bang was so strong that "astronomers know that no natural cause could have caused the explosion of energy given the gravity of the singularity. No known natural force could have overcome even a tenth of the gravity of the singularity at the time of the big bang. "

"...and We split them apart.", the Koran 2130 informs us .

He first created earth?
Quote
229?He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is Knower of all things

No He first created heaven?
Quote
7927?Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built?
7928?He raised the height thereof and ordered it;
7929?And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof.
7930?And after that He spread the earth,

7930 says "spread" , not "created" , . so earth was created first . no contradiction .

432?By the Book that makes things clear roll
? ?

indeed .

salam.

agentxxx

peace brother saladin,
thank you for your input,
you wrote

"needed"? God doesnt NEED anything . He does as He will . it took HIM six days , because HE willed six days .

please ignore my use of inappropriate words.. )
ok bro i agree that he willed six days.

419?Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters) Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.
4110?He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;
4111?Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient.
4112?Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and we decked the lower heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.in Might Full of knowledge.

you wrote

the heavens mentioned in the verse are , i believe , seven atmospheric layers, the seven heavens , (one above another, each having its duty , as other verses explain) .

324-It is Allah Who has created the heavens and the earth and all between them in six Days

it took him six days to create the heavens and the earth and all between them. that means that he created everything in 6 days.
so why the extra two days as in 4112? and are not the atmospheric layers between the heavens and the earth? and brother saladin he also says in the verse 4112 "and we decked the lower heaven with lamps" how would you explain that?
peace.

Fahad1

salam agent .

419?Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters) Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.
4110?He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;
4111?Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient.
4112?Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and we decked the lower heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.in Might Full of knowledge.

you wrote

the heavens mentioned in the verse are , i believe , seven atmospheric layers, the seven heavens , (one above another, each having its duty , as other verses explain) .

324-It is Allah Who has created the heavens and the earth and all between them in six Days

it took him six days to create the heavens and the earth and all between them. that means that he created everything in 6 days.
so why the extra two days as in 4112?

they are not extra . the two days were not seperate but coincided with the six days . its wrong to add the days 6+2 , in my opinion .

and are not the atmospheric layers between the heavens and the earth?

i think the atmospheric layers are the seven heavens themsleves .

and brother saladin he also says in the verse 4112 "and we decked the lower heaven with lamps" how would you explain that?

the word "lower" is not there .

salam.

agentxxx

peace saladin,
you wrote

Quote
and brother saladin he also says in the verse 4112 "and we decked the lower heaven with lamps" how would you explain that?

you say
the word "lower" is not there .

4112-So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the LOWER heaven with lights and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might Full of knowledge.

So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and
revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the
LOWER heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard;
that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.
Then He completed and finished from their creation (as) seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (LOWEST) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils). Such is the Decree of Him the All-Mighty, the All-Knower.
So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days and He
assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the
LOWER heaven with lights and (provided it) with guard. Such is
the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might Full of knowledge.
[email protected]

peace.

Andya_Primanda

Agentxxx, Saladin,

I believe it's good practice to always refer to the original Arabic in issues like these.

4112
Faqadahunna sabAAa samawatinfee yawmayni waawha fee kulli sama-in amrahawazayyanna alssamaa alddunyabimasabeeha wahifthan thalikataqdeeru alAAazeezi alAAaleemi

The issue is 'lower heavens' and I say most of the translations are incorrect. 'al-samaa al-dunya' would literally translate to 'The sky of the world'.

Saladin is right, 'lower' shouldn't be there.

Also notice in the chapter 41 sequence, the word creation 'khalaq' is only used for the two days, in which it refers to the creation of the earth ONLY. The next 4 days there are no 'khalaq'.

unknownuser

Peace

Just my 2c

Al Hayatu Al Donya, means the Low life, or the non perfect life as a metaphor

Donya actually does not mean "World at all", world means "Aalam" in Arabic

however i have to say that the arabs somehow use the word Donya to refer to this world but this is most likely incorrect, the also use the wfolowing word to describe a low human, "Danee"

The Quran also used it in surat al-rom, in verse 1 I think that the Rom was defeated in the lowest of the Land, "Adna Al Ard"

I believe it was proven that, where that battle happened, is the lowest area on the earh surface in comparison to the water level on earth

Allah knows best

Peace

Fahad1

salam.

Agentxxx, Saladin,

I believe it's good practice to always refer to the original Arabic in issues like these.

4112
Faqadahunna sabAAa samawatinfee yawmayni waawha fee kulli sama-in amrahawazayyanna alssamaa alddunyabimasabeeha wahifthan thalikataqdeeru alAAazeezi alAAaleemi

The issue is 'lower heavens' and I say most of the translations are incorrect. 'al-samaa al-dunya' would literally translate to 'The sky of the world'.

yes, thats what i meant . thanks .

Al Hayatu Al Donya, means the Low life, or the non perfect life as a metaphor

Donya actually does not mean "World at all", world means "Aalam" in Arabic

however i have to say that the arabs somehow use the word Donya to refer to this world but this is most likely incorrect, the also use the folowing word to describe a low human, "Danee"

i dont know much arabic , but in urdu "dunya" is used for "world" . but "aalam" is used for things other than the "world" too , right ? like in the verse "HE(ALLAH) 'made known' the Quran" . and in "Rabb al aalameen" it can mean "Lord of all that is known" ? correct me if i m wrong .

The Quran also used it in surat al-rom, in verse 1 I think that the Rom was defeated in the lowest of the Land, "Adna Al Ard"
I believe it was proven that, where that battle happened, is the lowest area on the earh surface in comparison to the water level on earth

yes. here
http//www.quran.org/science/QURANLOWEST.htm

Andya_Primanda

Now we have something interesting here! I see that Saladin who I assume has Pakistani background and myself, an Indonesian, agrees with 'dunya=world', because in Bahasa Indonesia the word 'dunya' is assimilated into 'dunia' which means world! Also it's often contrasted with 'akhirat' the hereafter.

'al-hayatu ad-dunya'=life in the world

'Alam' is also an Indonesian word, which meant 'Nature'. The other form of that word 'Ilmu' in Indonesian means 'knowledge'.

This is from bro Burhan's site regarding the usage of the root 'dal-nun-ya'
http//www.openburhan.com/pages/ob7145.html

and from there I get the impression that 'dunya' meant world.

Fahad1

salam.

Now we have something interesting here! I see that Saladin who I assume has Pakistani background and myself, an Indonesian, agrees with 'dunya=world', because in Bahasa Indonesia the word 'dunya' is assimilated into 'dunia' which means world!

yep . i m a Pakistani.

Also it's often contrasted with 'akhirat' the hereafter.
'al-hayatu ad-dunya'=life in the world

exactly , also in urdu . another interesting thing the number of times the words, "world" (dunya) and "hereafter" (akhira) are repeated in the Quran is also the same 115

'Alam' is also an Indonesian word, which meant 'Nature'. The other form of that word 'Ilmu' in Indonesian means 'knowledge'.

This is from bro Burhan's site regarding the usage of the root 'dal-nun-ya'
http//www.openburhan.com/pages/ob7145.html

and from there I get the impression that 'dunya' meant world.

i agree .

unknownuser

i dont know much arabic , but in urdu "dunya" is used for "world" . but "aalam" is used for things other than the "world" too , right ?

Hello

in the arab world "Aalam is used more than Donya to refer to this world for example "The Map of the World" is called "Kharitat Al Aalam" we can not say it the "Kharitat Al Donya" in fact we never call it this way, and there numerous referal to the Aalam by the arabs and they only mean this world

in fact the true translation to the english world "The world" should be "Al Aalam"

they also refer to the arabic countries all togther as "Al Aalam Al Arabi" ie "The Arabic world"

like in the verse "HE(ALLAH) 'made known' the Quran" . and in "Rabb al aalameen" it can mean "Lord of all that is known" ? correct me if i m wrong .

Yes in the Quran only it seems, but the above verse is talking about MOPRE than one Aalam "Aalameen" ie, it is possible that the verse mean our world that we know and the other worlds that we don't know, because for us it is only one world "one Aalam"

The Quran also used it in surat al-rom, in verse 1 I think that the Rom was defeated in the lowest of the Land, "Adna Al Ard"
I believe it was proven that, where that battle happened, is the lowest area on the earh surface in comparison to the water level on earth

yes. here
http//www.quran.org/science/QURANLOWEST.htm

Cheers, that is another Quran miracle indeed

Peace be with you

Fahad1

i dont know much arabic , but in urdu "dunya" is used for "world" . but "aalam" is used for things other than the "world" too , right ?

Hello

in the arab world "Aalam is used more than Donya to refer to this world for example "The Map of the World" is called "Kharitat Al Aalam" we can not say it the "Kharitat Al Donya" in fact we never call it this way, and there numerous referal to the Aalam by the arabs and they only mean this world

in fact the true translation to the english world "The world" should be "Al Aalam"

they also refer to the arabic countries all togther as "Al Aalam Al Arabi" ie "The Arabic world"

salam.
here is hlatif's explaination that i found on another forum

alAAalameena The Worlds/ everything and everyone/all
AAalameen is a derivative of the word Ain-L-M which comes from Knowledge or knowing. Therefore al AAalameen is the plural of AAaLAM and that word means known. This makes Al AAaLAMEEN meaan The knowns, in the most concrete form. Since GOD knows everyone and everything, then THE KNOWNS are Everyone and Everything, basically all.

So, my understanding is in concert with yours. One thing that you have to be careful with this word as you look it up at openburhan is that there are two words that look alike in Arabic but that have different meanings

AAaLAM and this is our word and it means known
AAaLEM and it means knowing

They both look the same in the Arabic but have different vowels that will not appear in the Arabic word unless you indicate it with some marks.

unknownuser