Are You Afraid of Loosing Muslims?

NoProgressive

As Salaam Alaikum,

Hello everyone. How are you all?

I would like ot know, are you afraid that as while Muslim may move to the West, they will eventually convert to a different religion? Like Christianity.

Right now I am watching some Barbara Walters special and right now they are highlighting Evangelical Christians, and how "appealling" their sermons are.... rock music, plays, laser lights, etc, etc, etc. REALLY appealing. And really easy to appeal to a Muslim that is so lost in the deen.......

Do you ever fear this???

Like seriously, I think that I would seriously dread hearing my kid come home from school one day and say, "My friend's parents are from Saudi... they use to be Muslim and now are Christians". It'll be years from now... but still.

I think we need to become Evangelical Muslms... have that same southern appeal, with all of the laser shows! lol.

salaam

Andya_Primanda

Hahaha. Christians converting Muslims using rock. I haven't heard of that one before. Here the missionaries usually bribe them with food, money or medication.

But anyway, do you think the number of Muslims would matter? Hey, I dislike Xtian missionaries a lot, but then again, I don't know if it would matter to myself.

Of course, if you're thinking in political terms this might matter. Less Muslim individuals might mean less power to the Muslims as a whole, and as a consequence Muslims will be easier to be dominated and trampled. At least that's how my Islamist friends might think.

I don't like preaching, myself. I prefer people to come to what they believe by themselves, and going through a rational and spiritual journey before they come to that conclusion.

Tahira

Salam NoProgressive+AndyaPrimanda

If their deen is weak to start with then we haven't really lost muslims, have we?
I still get your point NoProgressive because muslims and especially young muslims seem to get easily mislead . The idea of music ,clubs, drugs, provocative dancing and lots of sex seem very attractive to these youngsters and these days everything is advertised using sex and music.
To those who are brought up in this kind of enviroment it doesn't seem wrong anymore.
We are becoming more and more acceptable of this kind of behaviour.
Go back 50yrs , check out what was on tv and on advertisments and billboards , compare it to today and the results are shocking. So how much more acceptable are we going to get in the future.
In Pakistan hundreds of muslim men flock to theatres to watch women doing provocative dancing and stripping on stage. These dances are known as mujrahs , the goverment is trying to stop these shows taking place but cds and dvds are still being released.
So if we lost a couple of hundred of these so called muslims to other religions i wouldn't really count them as a loss.

mquran

Salaamun alaikum,

I would like ot know, are you afraid that as while Muslim may move to the West, they will eventually convert to a different religion? Like Christianity.

I converted after moving to the West, from Sunnism to Al-Islaam. The intellectual freedom in the West facilitated my research and subsequent conversion.

Right now I am watching some Barbara Walters special and right now they are highlighting Evangelical Christians, and how "appealling" their sermons are.... rock music, plays, laser lights, etc, etc, etc. REALLY appealing. And really easy to appeal to a Muslim that is so lost in the deen.......

Are these people 'muslim' to begin with? Who is a 'muslim' in light of Al-quraan? These are the questions you need to ask, imho.

Andya Of course, if you're thinking in political terms this might matter. Less Muslim individuals might mean less power to the Muslims as a whole, and as a consequence Muslims will be easier to be dominated and trampled. At least that's how my Islamist friends might think.

Ah yes, the so-called 'muslim vote'. Illusions of power.

In Pakistan hundreds of muslim men flock to theatres to watch women doing provocative dancing and stripping on stage. These dances are known as mujrahs , the goverment is trying to stop these shows taking place but cds and dvds are still being released.

Well, this is because they are 'muslims' by name only. The imaan which prevents them from disliking what Allah prohibits hasnt penetrated them. Imaan is transcultural.

Leyla

Salaam

Well, I perfectly agree with mquran?s remarks here.
We need to get beyond the idea that terms like muslim or isl?m are labels that people put on to themselves, sometimes just out of a supposed "birthright" (e.g. every born pakistani being basically perceived as a part of a so called muslim culture). This is racist and has few to do with the qur'?n.

We should not forget that muslim and isl?m are proper words in qur?nic Arabic and jus like every word in qur?nic Arabic they refer to concepts with a meaning and not to any cultutral or racial or whatever entity. You can translate their meaning into your own language.
In the qur'?n there?s nor idea of the term muslim or isl?m refering to a group that came into being in the time of Muhammad.
These terms are universally appliable to a certain group of humans that you will find in all timeperiods and all cultures.

I don?t care much about cultrural Sunnis,Shiis,Ahmadis etc. in religious or spiritual terms. I do have a certain respect for some of their thinkers who really got close to the qur'?n, studied it and presented some useful wisdom to us. I also do have a lot of respect for some of their mystics who contemplated on the qur'?n with their hearts and likewise gave us some useful wisdom.
These people might have been true muslims, yes.
But so might also be some Native American believing in the Great Spirit and following the laws given by Him.
Or some ancient Chinese Taoists.

Furthermore, what is even worse, in so called muslim countries the labelized terms isl?m and muslim are often used for forcing on the people silly policies that have few to do with the qur'?n.
The mujra policy in Pakistan is partly like that.
Tahira, I do agree that there is a retarded mujra culture in modern Pakistan that confluences with prostitution. But that?s not the reason the Pakistani govenment is working against mujra.
It would be nice if that would be the real reason but it is not.
They work against it because they say that generally all music and dance is har?m, for which there is no basis in the qur'?n.
Music and dance then become even more har?m when done by a woman who is supposed to stay either in a burqa or at home. For which there is also no qur'?nic basis.
This all despite the fact that mujra is a beautiful artform based on very elaborate classical Kathak dance and it is not in any way striptease or whatever.
The fact that it has retarded so much in Pakistan is again based on the hypocricy of Sunnism.
There were Pakistani state policies claiming to be muslim for banning all kind of art related to music. Despite the fact that the qur'?n does not say anythign negative about music! This has totally destroyed art culture in Pakistan. The best artists (musicians and dancers) emigrated to India and the rest was left for hungry perverted men who just wanted to see girls dancing.
Going to mosque at Friday noon and in the evening drinking your liver into a coma and watching some girl do some very bad pseudo mujra.
And this is now what is called mujra in Pakistan .... thanks to Sunni fabrications about the har?mness of music and thanks to hypocricy of Sunni men. UH.

Hey, you can see that I love mujra. True art mujra, not the thing done in Karachi brothels these days. c)
Well, but the Pakistani policy here really is a good example of how silly and likewise problem producing Sunni state policies can be.

bye,

Leyla

burhan

To those who are brought up in this kind of enviroment it doesn't seem wrong anymore.
We are becoming more and more acceptable of this kind of behaviour.
Go back 50yrs , check out what was on tv and on advertisments and billboards , compare it to today and the results are shocking. So how much more acceptable are we going to get in the future.

Good to finally see some traditional views. I really thought this forum was getting overrun by horny teenagers.

In Pakistan hundreds of muslim men flock to theatres to watch women doing provocative dancing and stripping on stage. These dances are known as mujrahs , the goverment is trying to stop these shows taking place but cds and dvds are still being released.

The government is just doing a PR excercise. Mujrahs aren't cheap - the only men who flock to these are MPs. The ordinary pakistani has to make do with the cds. The mullahs are obviously opposed publicly, but they still get their share by using certain laws in hadith.

)>-

phoenix1

hey, don't make fun of horny teenagers!

mquran

We need to get beyond the idea that terms like muslim or isl?m are labels that people put on to themselves, sometimes just out of a supposed "birthright" (e.g. every born pakistani being basically perceived as a part of a so called muslim culture). This is racist and has few to do with the qur'?n.

Yes, this is Pan-Islamic Racism (PIR -a rather appropriate acronym). PIR is a falsehood which has afflicted the world since the time of the Arab prophet, I conject. Statements arising from the conditions of PIR are like

have you got a MUSLIM name?
if you dont pray in arabic, your prayers are invalid
we must help our fellow muslims

We should not forget that muslim and isl?m are proper words in qur?nic Arabic and jus like every word in qur?nic Arabic they refer to concepts with a meaning and not to any cultutral or racial or whatever entity. You can translate their meaning into your own language.

Yes, what's important is the reality of al-islaam. The name is merely the pointer.

In the qur'?n there?s nor idea of the term muslim or isl?m refering to a group that came into being in the time of Muhammad.
These terms are universally appliable to a certain group of humans that you will find in all timeperiods and all cultures.

Yes, a term pointing to the primordial state of humankind and indeed the universe.

I don?t care much about cultrural Sunnis,Shiis,Ahmadis etc. in religious or spiritual terms. I do have a certain respect for some of their thinkers who really got close to the qur'?n, studied it and presented some useful wisdom to us. I also do have a lot of respect for some of their mystics who contemplated on the qur'?n with their hearts and likewise gave us some useful wisdom.

To me, these are people of the Arab or Persian or Indian civilisations. I wouldn't say they're from the Islamic civilisations either. They are thinkers who should be measured against al-quraan.

These people might have been true muslims, yes.
But so might also be some Native American believing in the Great Spirit and following the laws given by Him.
Or some ancient Chinese Taoists.

Yes, that's right. Although, I would add that only one who follows Ibrahim's path are al-muslimeen.

unknownuser

Hi

They work against it because they say that generally all music and dance is har?m, for which there is no basis in the qur'?n.
Music and dance then become even more har?m when done by a woman who is supposed to stay either in a burqa or at home. For which there is also no qur'?nic basis.
This all despite the fact that mujra is a beautiful artform based on very elaborate classical Kathak dance and it is not in any way striptease or whatever.
The fact that it has retarded so much in Pakistan is again based on the hypocricy of Sunnism.
There were Pakistani state policies claiming to be muslim for banning all kind of art related to music. Despite the fact that the qur'?n does not say anythign negative about music!

Is music and art prohibited under law in pakistan? ?
Dont they have their own film industry and music industry?

Peace!

Leyla

Salaam.

peacefulmuslim

Well, as burhan_21 has pointed it out oficial Pakistani policies are pretty hypocritical here and have to do a lot with PR jobs. of course, on the one hand there is no real prohibition on art and music. On the other hand the governments does some stuff to comfort the pressure from rightwing Sunni groups.
There?s a lot more to be said here.
Another issue is that in Pakistan for a long time things that reminded one too much of ones relations to the Indian culture did not have a good smell for many rightwing Sunnis.
This includes most of classical musical, pictorial etc. art in Pakistan. Also dresses like saris were included. When Pakistan was founded saris were regular and totally normal fashion for many women and probably considered as as modest as a shalwar kameez. Nowadays a sari is considered "indian" and "hindu" and thus "anti muslim". Again, this is just plain racism.

mquran

Totally agreed!
Just my point!
Especially this "we must help fellow muslims" thing is so inhumane. When something bad happens to some Japanese Shintoists no one in the Sunni mosque cares. When it happens to some Afghani Sunni, everyone almost starts to cry. When it happens to Irani Shi'ites ... well, the reaction will depend on the political situation. What do you call this? Racism, racism, racism.
And it is an ideology that is so common. Sadly, I have to admit that I also started to fall for it in my Sunni days.
What about the place that All?h has given to all of mankind and the qur'?nic command to not care for differences in culture or skincolour??

Also I totally agree on your other remarks on my words.
However,we should make it clear here that when we talk about the path of Ibrahim we probably both have something in mind that is not necessarily something only known to people who also know the name of Ibrahim, right? c)
That needs to be said.
It won?t be clear to everyone, I fear.
Especially not to traditional Sunnis, Jews, Christians who are fond of pointing out to a common Abrahamitic legacy of Islam, Judaism and Christianity and at the same time would discard everything that calls itself Hindu, Taoist, Buddhist as shirk.
Even though in many ways e.g. Taoist ideas on the Absolute are much closer to the qur'?nic concepts than the Christian trinity.

With regards to the thinkers I mentioned ..... yes, yes, yes.
But I just tend to assume that some of them really had an ernest wish to understand the qur'?n and to follow it.
Cultural conditioning was in many cases however so strong that this was not so easy.
Just as you said
Coming to the west facilitated your research and subsequent conversion.
What if you wouldn?t have come to the west?
I would guess sooner or later your search and your desire for truth would have lead you the right way as well. But it would have been much more difficult.
And even I, living in the west since childhood, would have had a much harder time if I wouldn?t have met the right person at the right time.
There are circumstances that make it harder to discover the truth.
So, when I look at people like Farahi, Islahi, Iqbal, I still have to admire their efforts in studying the qur'?n a lot, althought they always called themselves Sunni and worked in a Sunni influenced frame.
I think it is important to mention this a little bit within all the (absolutely deserved) Sunni bashing that we do here wink

Bye,

Leyla

mquran

Especially this "we must help fellow muslims" thing is so inhumane. When something bad happens to some Japanese Shintoists no one in the Sunni mosque cares. When it happens to some Afghani Sunni, everyone almost starts to cry. When it happens to Irani Shi'ites ... well, the reaction will depend on the political situation. What do you call this? Racism, racism, racism.

Makes me wonder why 'muslims' joined stopped the war march? Would they have marched if USA was going to invade Cambodia?

And it is an ideology that is so common. Sadly, I have to admit that I also started to fall for it in my Sunni days.

Same here. It was then the time to save our Bosnian brothers and sisters from the evil Orthodox Serbs.

What about the place that All?h has given to all of mankind and the qur'?nic command to not care for differences in culture or skincolour??

Neatly sidestepped by the hadith our UMMA is like a body, one part is ill, the whole body suffers.

Also I totally agree on your other remarks on my words.
However,we should make it clear here that when we talk about the path of Ibrahim we probably both have something in mind that is not necessarily something only known to people who also know the name of Ibrahim, right? c)
That needs to be said.
It won?t be clear to everyone, I fear.

Of course not. Ibrahim lives in our nafs (as an ayat) whether as ideal man, an idea of utopia or whatever.

Especially not to traditional Sunnis, Jews, Christians who are fond of pointing out to a common Abrahamitic legacy of Islam, Judaism and Christianity and at the same time would discard everything that calls itself Hindu, Taoist, Buddhist as shirk.
Even though in many ways e.g. Taoist ideas on the Absolute are much closer to the qur'?nic concepts than the Christian trinity.

Yes, the racist notions of ahlul kitaab. Imagine that a 'pagan' (not Sunni/Shia, Christian of Jew) inherits a lack of rights even though Sunni/Shia, Christian of Jew also (Quranically speaking) practise shirk. This is the tyranny of the Semitic religions.

Cultural conditioning was in many cases however so strong that this was not so easy.
Just as you said
Coming to the west facilitated your research and subsequent conversion.
What if you wouldn?t have come to the west?
I would guess sooner or later your search and your desire for truth would have lead you the right way as well. But it would have been much more difficult.

I guess you're right. I would probably joined the discussions online and joined the local 'Quraniyoon', missing out on the method practised widely in the UK. Who knows how things would have turned up.

And even I, living in the west since childhood, would have had a much harder time if I wouldn?t have met the right person at the right time.

Timeliness IS also crucial, in my opinion.

So, when I look at people like Farahi, Islahi, Iqbal, I still have to admire their efforts in studying the qur'?n a lot, althought they always called themselves Sunni and worked in a Sunni influenced frame.
I think it is important to mention this a little bit within all the (absolutely deserved) Sunni bashing that we do here

I don't think I'll get over the method which Farahi and Islahi catalysed for me (this is important to note that they catalysed the method, I've been though Islahi's 'tadabbur' with a learned Urdu-literate friend and it appears that he was very Sunni-ied in his understanding).

Sunni scholarship on al-quraan remains valuable. Recently, they produced a word-for-word (lafaziyyah) translation which was very penetrating indeed.

Tahira

burhan_21 i thought i was the only one who noticed the horny teenagers, but i see you have secretly been watching them too. We are going to have to control them or it'll become an epidemic. They are like viruses shock
See how as soon as you mentioned them they make themselves known
hey, don't make fun of horny teenagers!

I bet Phoenix 1 is headed for karachi right this minute lol

Tahira

Believe me guys/gals i could tell you some sunni racism stories but the thread is about are we losing muslims? I think that question has already been answered.

My family has this idea of, if you need to discipline your children take them to Pakistan. For all those who post here and are from Pakistan i would like you to know i have been to Pakistan and it is beautiful but it will never be my home.
What upsets me is that my family and hundreds of other Pakistanis in bradford seem to think that Pakistan is a perfect muslim country and no one is ever bad there but as soon as you mention the uk they start bad mouthing everything thing here. Chidren who are born here are told right from when they are infants that they are Pakistani and this is not their country. They always refer to Pakistan as home and the uk (where they spend 3/4 of their lives )will always be pardes. They tell us how faithful they are to their country and how important being faithful is yet they teach us to be unfaithful to ours.
I ask them which country in the world gives you free medical help, free education, help with mortgage payments if they become unemployed, life long facilities for the sick or disabled, help with rent and grants for house repairs (that they don't have to pay back). Free school dinners for children and free school clothing vouchers, free baby milk for infants . This is just a tiny portion of what help is available to people would pakistan give them all this.
Pakistanis come to live in our country, live off our facilities, then say racist things about us. I respect the Pakistani way of life and the uk is very accepting of other cultures and religions but it hurts when pakistanis can't accept our way of life and then abuse us. They say that the english are racist but at least the english don't bite the hand that feeds them.

When my husband came over from Pakistan i made my views about how i feel about the uk very clear to him. I told him that he will always be pakistani but that the uk will be his country just as much as Pakistan will be and that he should respect the uk as much as he respects Pakistan.
My husband has been true to his word he loves and respects England as much as Pakistan ....until he watches cricket.

stillearning

salaam
original question

I would like ot know, are you afraid that as while Muslim may move to the West, they will eventually convert to a different religion? Like Christianity.

No.

I converted after moving to the West, from Sunnism to Al-Islaam. The intellectual freedom in the West facilitated my research and subsequent conversion.

Agree. Without free-mind you cannot be a Muslim. Otherwise you are just nodding to socially acceptable situation.
regards

unknownuser

Hi No progressive,

I would like ot know, are you afraid that as while Muslim may move to the West, they will eventually convert to a different religion? Like Christianity.

I think we need to become Evangelical Muslms... have that same southern appeal, with all of the laser shows! lol.

What exactly do u mean by muslims?
What conversion are u talking about? To the traditional islam of today to become either a sunni or shia? Well, in that case u will need more than laser shows to compensate for the gloomy life they create

Which of the following do u think non believers will find appealing?

Women should be covered in black Hijab from hair to toe, including face in order that they escape from hell fire.
-Men should grow long beards to earn merit points to reach heaven
-U should not celebrate any days except the 2 eids. No birthdays & no nothing. Dare u be happy and wanna celebrate any other day. U will burn in hell eternally.
Music and all forms of art are haram and u will burn in hell.
-Television is haram.
most of the food u get in stores is haram
Women should take their husband's permission/command before doing anything, otherwise they will burn in hell

I bet there are many more do's and donts.

And if u r not talking of the 'traditional muslims count' and are talking of 'muslims', as in true believers of Allah and Quran, then all it requires is awakening. Once awake, no one can change ur faith to anything else, no matter how hard they try.

So, in that sense the traditional muslims need to wake up first, before they can convince others how good Islam is.

Peace!