Virgin Birth
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Peace
I meant you prove that my understanding to the verses is flawed
I can't prove anything to you. I can only show you the things I have come to realize.
Joe
and this is what i meant bro, sorry if it sounded a bit rude, I meant you show your things, I show mine and we leave it to the ones that yet to make up their mind
peace be with you
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Peace,
I think everyone has posted adequately on the matter.
People must use their intellect here. Women don't just give birth to babies out of nowhere. The fact that Mary had to bear Jesus with a pregnancy means that the laws of cause and effect are being obeyed.
The same people who peddle the virgin birth myth also believe that Muhammad split the moon and half of it landed in his back yard based on a Quranic verse.
These type of anti-intellectual myths go against 1736. We all know how children are born. There is no benefit to anyone to believe that Jesus was an exception to the rule, except those who wish to elevate and glorify a man.
The God is a fair and just god. His mercy means that the rules of nature do not change at a whim. A child is born with a mother and a father. Jesus had a father.
Regards.
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salaam
People must use their intellect here. Women don't just give birth to babies out of nowhere. The fact that Mary had to bear Jesus with a pregnancy means that the laws of cause and effect are being obeyed.
The same people who peddle the virgin birth myth also believe that Muhammad split the moon and half of it landed in his back yard based on a Quranic verse.
These type of anti-intellectual myths go against 1736. We all know how children are born. There is no benefit to anyone to believe that Jesus was an exception to the rule, except those who wish to elevate and glorify a man.
Well summarised.
regards -
The Quran continues to refute the silly and false allegation that Jesus had a father
Hello All
As we have seen from the evidences provided by the Arabic Quran so far, it is very obvious to a true believer that Allah created Isa without a father as He created Adam without a father.
If a God can create the mighty heaven an earth, how come He can?t create a human without a father?, well, He did it before the harder way, He created Adam without both parent, so why on earth He can?t do the easier task?
Bearing in mind, He already told us that Isa and his mother WERE MADE SIGNS TO HUMANITY.
Well, I understand that Isa being a sign maybe due to the miracles he will do with Allah permission, however what is the sign(s) in Mary then?
Very simple to an average human if the story is studied ?even dodgy? from the Quran that the sign of Mary is falling pregnant without touching a man or did she do or have any other sign that I?m not aware of ?
The most logical and strongest of all refutes in the Quran to this silly allegation by the ones that lack the knowledge in the Arabic Quran and history in general is simply the Quran never referred to Jesus that he had a father.
I do understand that this can not be a conclusive evidence that he didn?t had a father but the Quran kept referreing to Jesus differntly regarding his family tree even when the same words was used to others whom were refered to as having both parents.
We have seen how prophet Yehya was dutiful to his parents but when we read the same about Jesus we see that he was dutiful to HIS MOTHER and his father was never mentioned, further to this compelling evidence, I propose the following
The Quran tells us the following about prophet Solomon
?So he smiled, wondering at her word, and said My Lord! grant me that I should be grateful for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I should do good such as Thou art pleased with, and make me enter, by Thy mercy, into Thy servants, the good ones.?
(19)
-> We can clearly read that Solomon said to Allah ? My Lord! grant me that I should be grateful for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents,? , can you see that Solomon asked Allah to grant him that Solomon should be grateful for Allah favours that Allah bestowed on him and HIS PARENTS. And looks in Arabic like this ? ?
Allah then told us that we should say the same as Solomon said in regards to being grateful and He used the SAME EXACT WORDSthat Solomon used ? ?, ie, bestowed on him and on his parents
?And We have enjoined on man doing of good to his parents; with trouble did his mother bear him and with trouble did she bring him forth; and the bearing of him and the weaning of him was thirty months; until when he attains his maturity and reaches forty years, he says My Lord! grant me that I may give thanks for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may do good which pleases Thee and do good to me in respect of my offspring; surely I turn to Thee, and surely I am of those who submit.?
(15)
-> CAN YOU SEE IT ABOVE BROTHERS AND SISTERS?,
Let's look at both identical parts from both verses in Arabic under each other again
? ?, by Solomon in 2719
? ?, by everyone in 4615
-> From the above two verses we really need to pay more attention to thiese words only ? ?
HOWEVER, when it came to Isa, IT WAS SAID TO HIM BY ALLAH DIFFERENTLY
?When Allah will say O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said This is nothing but clear enchantment.?
(110)
-> CAN YOU SEE IT EVERYONE? THE SAME WARDS WAS SAID DIFFERENTLY TO JESUS, it was said to him like this ? O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother?, can you spot the difference brothers and sisters?
Again this is a very strong Quran evidence that will put the opposers to shame for their clear cut ignorance regarding the clear Arabic Quran let?s now put all three parts that interest us from those three verses under each other
The favours of Allah were logically given to the followings
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To Solomon and his Parents 2719 ? ?
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To Isa and HIS MOTHER 5110 ? ?
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To All of us (except Isa & Solomon because they were mentioned explicitly using the same words) and our parents 4615 ? ?
Why Allah specifically use the same words with Jesus but only mention HIS MOTHER?
It seems there is a perfect answer to that simple Question
JESUS HAS NO FATHER AS THE QURAN CONSISTANTLY INDICATES
My case has to rest again
Peace to all
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Salaams ,
003.061
YUSUFALI If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge Hath come to thee, say "Come! let us gather together,- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!"
003.062
YUSUFALI This is the true account There is no god except Allah; and Allah-He is indeed the Exalted in Power, the Wise.
003.063
YUSUFALI But if they turn back, Allah hath full knowledge of those who do mischief.
003.064
YUSUFALI Say "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you THAT WE WORSHIP NONE BUT ALLAH; THAT WE ASSOCIATE NO PARTNERS WITH HIM; THAT WE ERECT NOT, FROM AMONG OURSELVES, LORDS AND PATRONS OTHER THAN ALLAH." If then they turn back, say ye "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).Allah challenged them then but people are still on the same old path like the people of the book then.
I think even those who don't call them selves Muslim are proving through science that Allah's laws in the universe are unchangable?!
What say you?
Gods Blessings.
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Peace Ahmed,
Your entire theory is again demolished by the same verses that you quote...
4615 ?And We have enjoined on man doing of good to his parents; with trouble did his mother bear him and with trouble did she bring him forth; and the bearing of him and the weaning of him was thirty months; until when he attains his maturity and reaches forty years, he says My Lord! grant me that I may give thanks for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may do good which pleases Thee and do good to me in respect of my offspring; surely I turn to Thee, and surely I am of those who submit.?
Now you take this as an example for all human beings - us - and because it says parents that it means all of us have both parents to be dutiful to. This is not always so.
The verse proves that all humans have two parents - that's how they come into being. But not everyone lives with two parents. If your mother dies before you are born then you cannot be dutiful to her. She is dead. If both parents are dead then you can't be dutiful to either.
The verse gives us the truth on the matter - that people indeed have PARENTS - ie. TWO - a mother and father.
But this verse obviously doesn't describe everyone. Because if you notice it also says that the person says "my offspring".
Does every person in the world at forty years of age have offspring in their lifetime? No they don't. Thus the verse does not describe every person alive.
The verses on Jesus on the other hand are specific & describe his particular life situation and there is no need to try and draw other conclusions or fabricate a virgin birth based on this limited information.
Can you see the falsehood you are trying to convey to people by twisting the verse to your own needs?
Regards.
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Peace Ahmed,
peace oben
Your entire theory is again demolished by the same verses that you quote...
my entire theory?, now that is a joke by you lol thanks again for the laugh bro, it is like I'm trying to explain EVERYTHING in Mary's life hey lol
well you should say it like this to be accurate, THIS THEORY OF JESUS BY THE QURAN IS DEMOLISHED BY THE QURAN, ie, the Quran contradicted itself
can you see how nonsense you can say, but keep saying it, YOU WILL ACCOUNTABLE BY ALLAH
THIS IS NOT A THEORY NEITHER MINE, IT IS A FACT FROM THE QURAN YOU CALIM THAT YOU BELIEVE IN
4615 ?And We have enjoined on man doing of good to his parents; with trouble did his mother bear him and with trouble did she bring him forth; and the bearing of him and the weaning of him was thirty months; until when he attains his maturity and reaches forty years, he says My Lord! grant me that I may give thanks for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may do good which pleases Thee and do good to me in respect of my offspring; surely I turn to Thee, and surely I am of those who submit.?
Now you take this as an example for all human beings - us - and because it says parents that it means all of us have both parents to be dutiful to. This is not always so.
you are running like a zebra trying to find any logic lol, I'm not talking about "Zoriaty" "Chuldren" rather I'm talking about "Parents", stop shifting the subject unless I can shift it too, how about this
DO YOU BELIEVE IN ALLAH AS A REAL GOD OR AS A SYMBLOIC GOD OBEN
The verse proves that all humans have two parents - that's how they come into being. But not everyone lives with two parents. If your mother dies before you are born then you cannot be dutiful to her. She is dead. If both parents are dead then you can't be dutiful to either.
Haha thanks for the laugh mate, lol so the verse of being dutiful only for the ones that their parents did not die, lol lol again, not this is really funny
The verse gives us the truth on the matter - that people indeed have PARENTS - ie. TWO - a mother and father.
did it say all peopel have parents? NO IT DOES NOT as well Jesus was explicitly marked that he has a mother only, his father never mentioned even when his mother was accused of having a child outyside the wedlock
keep trying to mislead other belivers but hey you can mislead the weaks but nmot me bro, cheers
But this verse obviously doesn't describe everyone. Because if you notice it also says that the person says "my offspring".
Haha again, of course I know that but you just contradicted your self, in you last comment you say it was talking about all humanity now you are saying one person wink
let me explain it to you then as it seems you are really mixed up big times
it was talking about one person as a metaphor of all humanity except jesus, because when the same words were used with jesus, his father was never mentioned but when the same words were used with Solomon and the rest of us both parebts were mentioned
keep trying Oben, I will be here with you
Does every person in the world at forty years of age have offspring in their lifetime? No they don't. Thus the verse does not describe every person alive.
sure and here is what you just said about the same verse earlier in your same comment
The verse proves that all humans have two parents - that's how they come into being.
The verses on Jesus on the other hand are specific & describe his particular life situation and there is no need to try and draw other conclusions or fabricate a virgin birth based on this limited information.
you may say this to Allah then because I have not fabrictaed any, it was the info from the clear Arabic Quran that is obvious to a child and is true for 2000 years as far as the Quran is concern, now for someone like you to come and say thin in years 2005, sounds to me like a real fabricator
Can you see the falsehood you are trying to convey to people by twisting the verse to your own needs?
no I can't but I can see yours easily and many already did and told me as such privately, now I consider you not a true believer "sorry" and I'm sorry I have no more time to waste with you, I'm here to help the new believers who wants to know the truth about the Arabic Quran, if we will talk about the same subject I would rather we direct our comments to the people not to each other
Regards.
Peace be with you
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Peace,
But this verse obviously doesn't describe everyone. Because if you notice it also says that the person says "my offspring".
Haha again, of course I know that but you just contradicted your self, in you last comment you say it was talking about all humanity now you are saying one person wink
It's expressed somewhat unclearly. Let me explain it this way...
You claim that verse 4615 is describing all persons who have lived other than Jesus.
You say they are different to Jesus because they are dutiful to "parents" - ie. two parents, a mother and father.
You claim that Jesus is described as being only dutiful to a mother.
You therefore conclude that Jesus did not have a biological father.
What I say is...
Verse 4615 describes a person who is said to be dutiful to their parents but also has offspring.
Not everyone has offspring.
Therefore not everyone necessarily has two living parents either and not everyone is dutiful to parents (plural), but they may also be like Jesus and dutiful only to a mother or only a father or neither.
Therefore your claim that this verse provides evidence Jesus had no biological father is false.
Regards.
Your argument can be reduced to an affirming the consequent type of logical fallacy. Here is an example...
If someone is from a virginal birth, they are dutiful only to their mother,
Jesus was dutiful only to his mother,
Therefore he is from a virginal birth.
But someone whose father has died before they were born is also dutiful only to their mother, but they are not from a virginal birth - hence the argument is false.
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Peace,
no I can't but I can see yours easily and many already did and told me as such privately, now I consider you not a true believer "sorry" and I'm sorry I have no more time to waste with you....
What they and you say privately is irrelevant. The debate is in public for everyone to see and make up their own mind.
I don't know who you might consider to be a 'true believer', but you don't need to apologise to me.
4912 O you who believe, you shall avoid any suspicion, for even a little bit of suspicion is sinful. You shall not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another; this is as abominable as eating the flesh of your dead brother. You certainly abhor this. You shall observe GOD. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.
Regards.
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Peace,
no I can't but I can see yours easily and many already did and told me as such privately, now I consider you not a true believer "sorry" and I'm sorry I have no more time to waste with you....
What they and you say privately is irrelevant. The debate is in public for everyone to see and make up their own mind.
I don't know who you might consider to be a 'true believer', but you don't need to apologise to me.
4912 O you who believe, you shall avoid any suspicion, for even a little bit of suspicion is sinful. You shall not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another; this is as abominable as eating the flesh of your dead brother. You certainly abhor this. You shall observe GOD. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.
Regards.
I believe they just didn't want to hurt you that's all, it is not like we are gossiping or somethin bro
peace man
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Peace
The Quran continues to refute the silly and false allegation that Jesus had a father
It usually means something is disturbing a poster when one shouts in their posts. I see you refute nothing I have said with the reading thus far Ahmed.
it is very obvious to a true believer that Allah created Isa without a father as He created Adam without a father.
It is not so obvious Ahmed. It seems obvious to me that these are but tales that bad parents tell to their children and then years later decide to break their hearts and tell them the story was a lie. Except in this case, even grown-ups continue to believe in the tall tale.
Now the ayat to which you are so fond of citing is
The likeness of Jesus with Allah is truly as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust , then said to him, Be, and he was.
The likeness which you describe and the likeness given in this sign/ayat are not the same.
Ahmed Adam has no mother
Reading Both created from dust
Ahmed A special creation
Reading kun fa yakoon denotes a process (kun) and it's continuity (fa yakoon). Thus the process of reproduction and birth with mankind as always will involve seeds from both sexes (41, 329)God has a way of doing things and has chosen to have mankind be the stuff of two seeds conjoining (41, 329).
Very simple to an average human if the story is studied ?even dodgy? from the Quran that the sign of Mary is falling pregnant without touching a man or did she do or have any other sign that I?m not aware of?
I think it's a pity that after all the signs provided us regarding such a nabiyy and mumin that the only sign you feel ayat 2350 is speaking of is the one which the reading does not support.
the Quran never referred to Jesus that he had a father.
This is not true.
we see that he was dutiful to HIS MOTHER and his father was never mentioned
Yes, his father I believe passed away shortly after his birth. He is not duty-bound to his father, but his mother is still alive. To her he must uphold his duty now.
can you see that Solomon asked Allah to grant him that Solomon should be grateful for Allah favours that Allah bestowed on him and HIS PARENTS.
This is different from what Jesus said. Jesus is talking about his duty to his parent who is alive. Surely he too could say such a thing regarding both his parents as Solomon did.
HOWEVER, when it came to Isa, IT WAS SAID TO HIM BY ALLAH DIFFERENTLY
It is case specific, regardng a particular situation here with Jesus and his mother. Do you not see?
Also in the other 2 instances you mentioned the speaker is not the Lord, but the people, whereas in the case with Jesus and Mary it is the Lord speaking on a particular incident.
Joe
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Good morning Joe
I haven't read you comment yet, just the first few lines and I will respond later when I have time, but just to let you know I don't shout, it is a mere presentation
salam
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Salam Truth,
This is magical thinking with conjecture, and just plainly false.
1640 To have anything done, we simply say to it, "Be," and it becomes.
Innama qawluna lishay-in itha aradnahu an naqoola lahu kun fayakoonu
To have anything done the same command applies. There is no supernatural things and no miracles. The laws are set in place by the God and things obey those laws.
Regards.
JK- BUT THERE IS and the above verse clearly shows that. It means that GOD does not need to wait for the laws of physics to come into action but that if He wants something to hapen He says 'Be' and it becomes with no need of any physical laws as we know them. This is how i understood this verse as a child and anyone will understand it that way because its the simplest understanding of that verse. Your complicating the meaning of a verse by forcing your own interpretations on it. This verse is the exact reply to those like you who claim that everything happens naturally and GOD doesnt intervene. It were these people who refuted that Mary could have a son without a man touching her and thus accusing her of adultery even in the past. GOD is refuting such in the above verse, get it? GOD Bless!