Do You Realise We Would Be Killed?
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Salaamun alaikum,
Andyaeath by religious inquisition or by violent fanatics... I sometimes feel that I might end up that way.
That's not likely to happen in Indonesia, is it? Not with the underlying Pancasila philosophy?
NPo you realise that we would all be killed if we lived somewhere like Saudi Arabia or Iran? Publicly denouncing hadiths like this? It brings chills up my spine... I feel like a political fighter or something. lol
Why would you want to publicly denounce hadiths? Rather, focus on establishing ad-deen. This is what Allah commands explicitly.
Further, the only reason 'quraniyoon' are tolerated in the west is because they pose no threat to the prevailing system. However, once they are seen to be challenging 'liberal democracy', it wont be so hunky-dory. Look at what McCarthyism did to the commies.
And even worst... when I watch these terrorist on TV I think to myself, 'What if these men took over the world?' ... do you all realise how messed up we would be as a whole?
These people want Shariah Law. They want to monitor their government with Hadiths!
The only reason terrorist movements still exist is due to the powers that be. Its beneficial for them to have a manufactured enemy on whom they can blame everything and with whose activities, they can justify anything. I can think of many strategies to break the backs of these movements so I wonder why the powers that be are still waiting.
As for 'taking over the world', you need to listen to these people preach in British Universities and have a picture of their IQ levels.
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Salaam Mquran,
That's not likely to happen in Indonesia, is it? Not with the underlying Pancasila philosophy?
Don't trust Pancasila that much brother. There was a Javanese man named Roy who got arrested and thrown in jail for doing his shalat in Bahasa Indonesia. The sentence was "an insult to Islam". Can you believe that? lol lol lol
So Andya might be right. D
Hey, the Ahmadiyah sect is not doing that well either in this Sunni country. So, no. Don't trust Pancasila theory that much brother. D
Wasalaam,
=adley= -
Don't trust Pancasila that much brother. There was a Javanese man named Roy who got arrested and thrown in jail for doing his shalat in Bahasa Indonesia. The sentence was "an insult to Islam". Can you believe that?
I'm surprised. To me, Indonesia was always Malaysia's more liberal twin.
Hey, the Ahmadiyah sect is not doing that well either in this Sunni country. So, no. Don't trust Pancasila theory that much brother.
That's very sad to hear indeed.
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Why you or anybody want Ahmadiya movement to succeed?
Ahmadiya move is a cult with one movtive to make money. Just like Ismalis, Boharis where you have to pay to be the member of these cults. Believe me its not small sum of money. Ahmadiya movement contribution are 8% of gross before tax earnings.
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peace mquran,
I don't want Ahmadiyya to succeed but I do believe in freedom to believe.
i agree with you brother.
Two of my class fellows from college, joined the army after graduation, Zc is sunni, he was an average student in college, during every departmental test and course required for promotion in the army, he got an average result. Nk is ahmadhi, he was a brilliant student in college, excellent debater, passed all his departmental test and courses with excellent results. Both became majors, but then nk had to resigned because he is ahmadhi and further promotion became almost impossible for him. Zc is still serving and got an easy promotion as a karnal .
It is so sad that belief is preferred over competency.
NoProgressive I too feel the fear of being ruled by the extremist mullah in Pakistan, especially after seeing the rule of mullah umar in our neighboring country. this fear is one of the reason why I have never voted for any religious party and never will.
Peace. -
Salaam all,
Personally, I don't ever think of Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet. However, that still does not give me the rights to persecute his followers.
I mean, if someone want to believe that a certain man is the Imam Mahdi, then it is his/her right. The sad thing is, the Ahmadiya followers were actually banned/kicked out from certain villages by you-know-who. And there were occasions where Ahmadiyah's masjids were attacked.
Indonesia might be more liberal than Malaysia. But as long as the Ulamas' Fatwas are the Islamic Law here, there's not much thing you can do. You can't say publicly that you do your ritual prayers in Indonesian, you can't say that you reject hadith altogether, you can't say that shalat is not in the form of rituals facing the Kaba', etc... etc...
Probably the problem lies with Tafsirs. Ulamas interpret "there is no compulsion in DIN" as there is no compulsion to embrace their version of Islam, but when you have embraced it, then you gotta live up to the whole package dictated and forbidden to go outside the frame that they have designed and built.
Wasalaam,
=adley= -
Indonesia might be more liberal than Malaysia. But as long as the Ulamas' Fatwas are the Islamic Law here, there's not much thing you can do. You can't say publicly that you do your ritual prayers in Indonesian, you can't say that you reject hadith altogether, you can't say that shalat is not in the form of rituals facing the Kaba', etc... etc...
Then it's not a lot more liberal, only marginally more so. Can you publicly renounce your religion though?
Probably the problem lies with Tafsirs. Ulamas interpret "there is no compulsion in DIN" as there is no compulsion to embrace their version of Islam, but when you have embraced it, then you gotta live up to the whole package dictated and forbidden to go outside the frame that they have designed and built.
This isn't 'interpret', this is 'misinterpret'.
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I got the impression from Adley that he wants Ahmadiya movement to succeed in Indonesia. I make a mistake for not adressing directly to Adley.
I don't interfere in anybody's religious belief. All the humans have the right to follow what they believe is right. If you bring Ahmedis or Ismailis into discussion than I do have the right to critize them.
BTW I love Indonesia, very nice place, friendly people, good sea food and everything very cheap.
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Actually back in the 80s a Qur'an only group emerged in Jakarta, but it was quickly suppressed and labeled heretic by religious authorities. I don't think there was any violence involved though, that group just disappeared (or went underground). I read it on a book describing 'devious sects' in Indonesia, which includes the Ahmadiyah.
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Salaam Mquran,
Then it's not a lot more liberal, only marginally more so. Can you publicly renounce your religion though?
Well, if I turn into say.... a Catholic, then nothing would ever happen to me. But if I publicly renounce Sunnism, then I can expect a lot of trouble coming lol lol lol
Strange as it seems, that is the situation here D
Wasalaam,
=adley= -
Well, if I turn into say.... a Catholic, then nothing would ever happen to me. But if I publicly renounce Sunnism, then I can expect a lot of trouble coming
Strange as it seems, that is the situation here
In Malaysia, if you became a Catholic, you will cause a national riot. This actually happened about 7 years ago when a 'muslim' girl became a catholic.
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Andya
Actually back in the 80s a Qur'an only group emerged in Jakarta, but it was quickly suppressed and labeled heretic by religious authorities. I don't think there was any violence involved though, that group just disappeared (or went underground). I read it on a book describing 'devious sects' in Indonesia, which includes the Ahmadiyah.Same thing happened in Malaysia in 1989.
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Salaam KGB,
I got the impression from Adley that he wants Ahmadiya movement to succeed in Indonesia. I make a mistake for not adressing directly to Adley.
Well, as you might have known, I disagree with Ahmadiya (or any sects for that matter). But I also disagree the harsh treatment they received from the surrounding neighbours on where they build their masjid. That is not tolerance.
I don't interfere in anybody's religious belief. All the humans have the right to follow what they believe is right. If you bring Ahmedis or Ismailis into discussion than I do have the right to critize them.
Agree.
BTW I love Indonesia, very nice place, friendly people, good sea food and everything very cheap.
Very cheap? lol lol lol lol
If you have dollars, absolutely. You can buy PS2 games for US$1 (or less even). But your pay check is in Rupiahs, then it's not cheap at all cryWasalaam,
=adley= -
Salaam Alleikum Adley
No misunderstanding at all now.
I said very cheap based on my observation like McDonalds always full, Pizza Hut full, Hard Rock full to its limits, Chilly's full and majority of the people there were always Indonesians which gives me impression that people can afford it because its so cheap.
Now you have explained it to me and sure you know your country better than a man who stayed in Jakarta for 9 days. -
Salaam KGB,
No misunderstanding at all now.
Alhamdulillah D
I said very cheap based on my observation like McDonalds always full, Pizza Hut full, Hard Rock full to its limits, Chilly's full and majority of the people there were always Indonesians which gives me impression that people can afford it because its so cheap.
Well, I have to admit that those restaurants are always full. The price here is definitely much lower than in US, Canada, or European countries for sure. On the other hand, there a lot of native people who can afford Pizza Hut, true. But there are a lot lot more who can't afford it. cry
Now you have explained it to me and sure you know your country better than a man who stayed in Jakarta for 9 days.
When was your last visit? And where to? Jakarta?
Wasalaam,
=adley= -
Salaam
Gosh, last time I was sitting in a cheap American fastfood restaurant in SouthEastAsia I felt so decadent and bad because in this airconditioned barn only about four other individuals were sitting and all of them were European (or American or Australian for that matter) ..... to be there seemed so extremely posh that I promised to me to never ever do so again.
That was in Bangkok, however. Neither in Indonesia nor Malaysia. Good to know that I would not need to feel too bad in Indonesia .... wink .I have a question on Indonesia and freedom of religion, guys
I read that years ago some javanese kebatinan groups declared themselves as separate from sunnism and were officially accepted as a separate agama under pancasila. However, all the members of these groups would before that act be just simply been classified as adherents of mystical sunni folk isl?m.
So, was this act not then a severe break with sunni policies and did it not provoke the sunni scholars?
I always also got the impression that Indonesia was quite liberal when it comes to religious freedom and when I read about this occasion it confirmed my belief. What do you say about it?
Thanks for any insights!bye,
Leyla
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Salaam Leyla, KGB, all,
Well, liberal in Jakarta or the big cities, perhaps. D
It is true that we've experience a period where religious movements were quite "free". At least until the MUI (Indonesian Assembly of Ulamas) made the 14 Fatwas last year.Indonesia may not that extreme as in other "total" Islamic countries, but if you punch the right buttons, there will be entertainment, D The problems would start if you start to doubt 3 things Arabic language as the language of Islam or God; the great scholars' Tafsirs; and the Hadiths they all love so much.
The kebatinan/mystic did not venture into, say, rejecting hadiths. So they're fine. Imam Ghazalli is quite popular in this country if I may add D even though in 16th century an Indonesian mystic named Syeikh Siti Jenar (a.k.a Sunan Lemahbang who gave birth to Kejawen Islam) was labeled a heretic/kafir/murtad for introducing the concept of "Man Unites with GOD." And there are still many others.
So Indonesia is a bit odd in terms of religious freedom. There was a guy back in 90s who met this problem because he said that to do the Hajj, one does not need to go to Mecca, a local masjid will do.
The most embarassing cases where the Ahmadiya and Roy who performed the traditional prayers in Bahasa Indonesia. So I guess there is a double standard here for what is accepted as "believe in what you want to believe" D
Wasalaam,
=adley= -
Peace,
The problems would start if you start to doubt 3 things Arabic language as the language of Islam or God; the great scholars' Tafsirs; and the Hadiths they all love so much.
I do not accept any of the above and so, perhaps I should never step in Indonesia, and for that matter any "Islamic" country. But surprisingly, I did spend a week in Bali in March 2003. But then, no body asked me about what I believed in.
Anwar Azim
PS My wife gave my daughter a nickname "Baliko" because she was conceived in Bali. BTW, "ko" is usually used to indicate a girl's name in Japanese.