The problem with "miracles".
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Peace all,
Another concept that people are consistently debating is the existence of miracles. Are they compatible with the God's system or not?
We all agree that the God has set things into place according to physical laws. Fire burns, ice floats, diamonds are hard, gravity attracts and so on.
People who argue for miracles allege that the God breaks the laws He has created. That's what a miracle is in effect - something that cannot be compatible with the laws of physics as we know them.
Some take a trickier approach however. They say that miracles are actually within the laws somewhere but come into effect when they are needed. This approach fails because if miracles are actually within the laws then there is nothing really special about them.
For example someone was arguing that a virgin birth is actually physically possible due to some quirk of genetics. Well if that's true then a virgin birth isn't miraculous is it? I mean it's going to happen at some stage if it's possible. Maybe there's many people alive today who are actually products of this process. A married woman would have no clue how her egg was fertilised after all.
The rarity does not matter. If it's within the law then it is no longer miraculous. The magnetic poles of the earth change direction every few hundred thousand years. A rare event - and yet that is not a miracle because it is within the law.
So an event must defy or break the laws of physics to be a miracle.
So what is a 'law' then? What is it that underpins laws of mathematics and physics?
What I believe a law represents is a promise that something will always hold true. There are no degrees to this; you can't have something half as true, or twice as true.
A promise must be rock solid for one to have confidence in it. Say someone says that they are going to leave you their estate and entire wealth. There are some people from whom if you receive that promise you could start spending today based on it; and there are others from which it is meaningless and only a fool would trust.
That gives an underlying understanding of what a promise from the God is. A promise from the God is rock solid. It is firm and unchangeable.
The God's laws are His promise to us that the physical world abides by certain rules. So the breaking of these laws is like the breaking of a promise by the God.
In other words it just does not happen.
2 + 2 =4
In the world of the believer in miracles it can equal 3, 5 or any other number, because laws are changeable to them. But the God's system does not allow for it. The God's promise is true and unchangeable.
Throughout history people have looked for miracles to underpin and justify an existence beyond what they can understand and perceive from this worldly life. But they look in vain and their desires for the laws to be broken are vain. The God's signs are everywhere for those who have attained certainty.
Peace.
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Virgin birth HEHE only hapens when you have sea monkeys
Miracles, tough one. I think perhaps a miracle is an intervention of sorts. Something steps in to change what would be the natural course AS WE KNOW IT. If these possibilities ARE there within the natural laws, perhaps they are occurances that require some kind of intervention. Miraculous healing. If it what we believe to be the natural course for a person to die or at the least become permanantly disabled due to a fall, but they actually make a %100 recovery we call it a miracle. Perhaps that miracle is simply something coming in and turning something on in the body that is unknown to us. That breaks no laws. Kind of like a software back door. The only ones who can access it are the creators of the program. So what if the creator has it's own back doors to use? I suppose it might if the outcome would be bennificial for a purpose. A comunity in need of hope and faith, a person who still has more to do for the benefit of human kind, a family that might fall apart without a certain person and so on. The reasons are not menat for us to know. I think all we are meant to know is that sometimes things can't be explained, but yet they booster our hope. After all, it is hope that keeps us going to the trouble of breathing every day isn't it? -
Miracles, tough one. I think perhaps a miracle is an intervention of sorts. Something steps in to change what would be the natural course AS WE KNOW IT. If these possibilities ARE there within the natural laws, perhaps they are occurances that require some kind of intervention. Miraculous healing. If it what we believe to be the natural course for a person to die or at the least become permanantly disabled due to a fall, but they actually make a %100 recovery we call it a miracle.
The God is "intervening" all the time. The God controls everything ultimately. This sort of understanding that the God is a being who is unconcerned and steps in only at opportune moments is a falsehood. Everything is controlled by the God, and things abide by His law which is unchangeable.
Perhaps that miracle is simply something coming in and turning something on in the body that is unknown to us. That breaks no laws. Kind of like a software back door. The only ones who can access it are the creators of the program. So what if the creator has it's own back doors to use? I suppose it might if the outcome would be bennificial for a purpose. A comunity in need of hope and faith, a person who still has more to do for the benefit of human kind, a family that might fall apart without a certain person and so on. The reasons are not menat for us to know. I think all we are meant to know is that sometimes things can't be explained, but yet they booster our hope.
I deliberately do not address 'healing miracles' because they are subject to complexity - someone who heals may have healed anyway. We know there is a placebo effect which we don't understand.
I'm talking about the miracles that are incontrovertible by any standard. A stick becoming a snake; a sea parting etc.
After all, it is hope that keeps us going to the trouble of breathing every day isn't it?
The only thing that makes the universe viable is the God's promise. If that promise is breakable then everything becomes falsehood. I hope you understand how guaranteed that promise is and must be. People who disbelieve are actually disbelievers in that promise of the God. That's what it comes down to.
Regards.
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OO the parting of the sea of reeds. Perfect example as I just watched a very intreresting show on the entire fleaing of moses and the isrealites last night. First the pillar of smoke and fire was explained as a possible copy cat of egyptian warfare as they would use a pillar of smoke and a pillar of fire to comunicate with the large marching armies. It was said that perhaps moses used these as a way to decieve the egyptians. then as the egyptians thought moses was lost, historians believe that perhaps it was really very cunning warfare combined with his intimate knowledge of the terraine. They think moses used a pillar of fire to blind the egyptians as he doubled back to the red sea and crossed at low tide. Low tide, combined with the already recorded strong east wind, could have, within a time span od 25-45 minutes, create a dry stretch for the isrealites to pass. Then when the egyptians got to the passint he next morning the mud flats would have slowed the chariots "as if God had locked the wheels" Thus the parting of the sea of reeds. No miracle, just good warfare, or at least good copycat of good warfare, combined with knowledge of the tides and terrain and the luck of the east wind. Now moses probably had the plan to pass at low tide all along, but had the luck of the winds behind him when he did.
It was actually a very interesting program on the History Channel in the states. It can probably be looked up on line. If you are interested in the explanation of biblical miracles I would check it out.
As for the stick to snake, hell I saw a stick get up and walk once (stick bug) and the mud made the blind man sea, well that is actually an old trick of medicine men. This could be an interesting discussion here. I believe in miracles, but I must admit I believe more in nature and it's own power to act "miraculously". For cryin out loud, the irish used to think a rainbow was a miracle created by leprachauns and that you could find a pot of gold at one end LOL
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Without hope in something, why breathe? We hope there is life after death. We hope each day will bring us joy and prosperity. We hope our families will survuve without the pain of loss. Each day we get up hoping. Without it, there would be no reason to get back in when the chips are down Hope eternal my friend.
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Peace
You said there were things, not being clearly explained, but augmenting one's hope nevertheless.
Do virgin births or possible riches from that pot of gold on the side of the rainbow offer hope?
Does knowing that the power behind the viels can resurrect you as the dead land offer hope?
What do you put your hope in, faint dreams or clear ideas.
Joe
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Hope leads to faith, Everything starts with a hope. You want to build something you first hpoe you can do it. You want to believe in god but as a child you hope he is out there. then it builds to faith and beliefe. What I am saying is that Hope drives start and then to keep going As for the virgin birth, unless we are talking sea monkeys I don't buy it Mary's virginity upon conception is based on her word. I can tell ya that if I was young, unmarried and living in a culture that more than looked down on premarital sex, I would claim emaculate conception myself