the reading(quran) is not the title of any book
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mquran,
I think it?s rather my English that fell short. In Swedish it could be ?kall?, maybe that?s why I came up with that translation. Proclamation sounds a bit stiff, though. I think you can come up with a translation somewhere in between. As for ?da?a? and ?nid???, they speak of physical calls.
The Koran never gives itself names, does not entitle itself. No.
In 413, ?qur??nan? is an adjective and not a proper name. Thus ?a book, with its signs designed by an Arabic proclamation? or something like that.
The word ?h???? can be used in various ways. Though, believing that ?h??? al qur??n? and ?h??? qur??n? is the same thing shows a lack of knowledge of Arabic grammar.
As you say that ?tilka? can refer to a plural, it has no support what so ever in Arabic language. There are already plural forms that are ?h??l? or ??l??ika?. What tilka feels like to you has support only inside your mind and many an islamic scholar.As for the secrets, you have not yet been able to prove for sure that the ?qur??n? inside the Koran actually aims at the title of this very book. It never says ?h??? al kit?bu alla?? ismuhu al qur??n?. Never.
El-Aziz is not a name of God, no. Inside the Koran, the author(s) has put attributes to describe God. That is not the same thing as names.
Listen, a language is a language. Nothing more. It evolves. Things that used to be incorrect start to adapt to modern grammatical rules as time passes by. All languages do the same thing. Let me know if you?re coming anywhere with these questions, ok?
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about 63 contexts in the Quran where it referes to itself as Quran
Even though I think we've reached that point quite some time ago, it's just about crunch time right now.
For what you just stated I would like only ONE among these 63 contexts where the Koran is mentioning these things together
- The title "qur'?n"
- the title clearly refering to the whole book in question.
Can you do that, can you post such a verse here?
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about 63 contexts in the Quran where it referes to itself as Quran
Even though I think we've reached that point quite some time ago, it's just about crunch time right now.
For what you just stated I would like only ONE among these 63 contexts where the Koran is mentioning these things together
- The title "qur'?n"
- the title clearly refering to the whole book in question.
Can you do that, can you post such a verse here?
271 is clearly using the Quran as a noun, hence it is a name to it
"The tyres of the Car"
"The verses of the Quran"
the car is named car
the Quran is named Quran
also bro in arabic we can add an alif to a name to express another context
like Ahmada
or Al Ahamdayai, sure is a name of a sect
or what do you think?
peace
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Peace
here is another cpuple of verses
?it is an honored Quran, ?
(77)
-> Obviously 5677 clearly says ?it is an honored Quran?, surely the word Quran represent THE WHOLE BOOK and is its name
This is a good one
?So when you read the Quran, seek refuge with Allah from the accursed Shaitan, ?
(9
-> Hence under the flawed understanding that Quran means reading and is not a name, the info in the verse should be rendered to ?So when you read the reading, seek refuge with Allah from the accursed Shaitan,,
"Read the Reading" sounds a bit funny to me, and surely confusing, as which reading exactly that I should seek refuge with Allah from the shaitan?
I bet the answer will be the name of the book ?Al Quran?, well Allah answed it Himself by calling his book ?Al Quran? in the same verse
Peace
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about 63 contexts in the Quran where it referes to itself as Quran
Even though I think we've reached that point quite some time ago, it's just about crunch time right now.
For what you just stated I would like only ONE among these 63 contexts where the Koran is mentioning these things together
- The title "qur'?n"
- the title clearly refering to the whole book in question.
Can you do that, can you post such a verse here?
271 is clearly using the Quran as a noun, hence it is a name to it
"The tyres of the Car"
"The verses of the Quran"
the car is named car
the Quran is named Quranalso bro in arabic we can add an alif to a name to express another context
like Ahmada
or Al Ahamdayai, sure is a name of a sect
or what do you think?There's no article to "ay?t" in 271, so "the verses of the quran" doesn't make any sense in this context.
Do you think car is the name of a car? How about 465, "day of the judgement". The day is named judgement? I don't think so.Once again I'm asking you to establish your claim of qur'?n being a proper name, and in the same context where it's mentioned - show how this refers to the 114 chapter book. Can you do that?
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There's no article to "ay?t" in 271, so "the verses of the quran" doesn't make any sense in this context.
what do you mean by there is no article to ayah 271?
and why the verses of the Quran does not make any sense to you, can you elaborate?
for example the followings make sense to me
imagine I have a Book named "Ali Baba"
would this does not make sense to you?
The final chaphter of "Ali Baba" book is great
Do you think car is the name of a car? How about 465, "day of the judgement". The day is named judgement? I don't think so.
well car is a name of an object, exactly like the names Allah taught Adam when He created Him, remember those verses about adam?
a car as name of an object will represent a book as a name of an object and it is also given a name by Allah called "Quran" becaise he consistantly refered to it as a whole book as a such,
Once again I'm asking you to establish your claim of qur'?n being a proper name, and in the same context where it's mentioned - show how this refers to the 114 chapter book. Can you do that?
There is no verse in the Quran that says "The Quran name is the Quran" so you may live with what you concluded and surley we will all meet on that day named "Judgment day", and Allah will be the best Judge in what we differ
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Ahmad,
5677 says ?it is indeed a generous qur??n? continuing with 78 saying ??in a well preserved book?. If the ?qur??n? in verse 77 refers to the whole book, what book is it (verse 7 included in?
Next thing, you say that God calls the Koran ?al?qur??n? in the verse 1698. Not correct, obviously. First of all, God doesn?t write books. And second of all, it does not what so ever clearly point out the title of the book to be ?al?qur??n? as the same thing as it is speaking of. I wish I could say nice try, but that wasn?t even any near.
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Ahmad,
5677 says ?it is indeed a generous qur??n? continuing with 78 saying ??in a well preserved book?. If the ?qur??n? in verse 77 refers to the whole book, what book is it (verse 7 included in?
mate, please you have no poinyt here, the verses are very accurate
Allah is telling us that this Quran is generous of a type of a book that is well preserved, what is wrong with that bro?
why you are trying to make it so complicated man?, it is that simple I can assure you
Next thing, you say that God calls the Koran ?al?qur??n? in the verse 1698. Not correct, obviously. First of all, God doesn?t write books.
how do you know that the He does not? also did I say God write books?, I didn't because I don't know and I don't say things about God that I don't know and that is what the Quran adviced us to watch out for
And second of all, it does not what so ever clearly point out the title of the book to be ?al?qur??n? as the same thing as it is speaking of. I wish I could say nice try, but that wasn?t even any near.
well, if you hear someone calling me Ahmed, would that be enough that it is my name
also I'm not trying to convince you nor convince others, I'm documenting my replys to the conjecture about Islam and the Quran that has no merit and values whatsoever and only shows how confused many muslims are
peace
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There's no article to "ay?t" in 271, so "the verses of the quran" doesn't make any sense in this context.
what do you mean by there is no article to ayah 271?
It is pretty obvious if you're that good at arabic grammar as you say you are. There's no AL preceding "?y?t" in 271. This is why the translation "THE verses of the qur'?n" doesn't make any sense.
This is the tricky part for your claim...you'd gonna have to show that "qu'?n" aims at one whole book, the one with 114 chapters. Moreover, you're gonna have to prove that qur'?n is a proper name and cannot be a noun. Once you show me where the Koran's "qur'?n" specifically directs towards the very book we're talking about, that's when you mean business!
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Ahmad,
Once again, you say that ?qur??n? is referring to the whole book. Why is it then that 5678 says it fits inside a well preserved book? I thought they were the same? Is the book?s titled included inside itself?
And please?when you have the time, post the verse where ?qur??n? is pointed out as a proper name, as the title of the whole book. A verse or something wherein there?s no doubt about it cannot be a noun. Ok?
If someone adresses you as Ahmad, it makes sense that Ahmad indeed is your name. However, the book traditionally known as the Koran have never been addressed as ?al?qur?n?.
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quote="AhmedBahgat"]what do you mean by there is no article to ayah 271?
haha, my calim?
Well, it is at least the claim of almost 90% of the whole world muslim or not, so you should retreat that silly claim about "My Claim"
(30)
So would you reckon this metaphor about the prophet talking on the judgment day that "his people treated this Quran as a forsaken thing" is talking about the whole 114 suras or not?
your answer will be just for the records bro
peace
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Ahmad,
If you would know Arabic that well and you want me to step off my high horses, I suggest you do some research on the difference between ?Al ?y?t? and just ??y?t?. These two translate different from each other when being translated to English (being the language that we up our conversation with).
And either we translate it with ?the verses? or simply ?verses?, it still does not point out the title of the book being that very word, ?qur??n?.
As far as the majority of the Islamic world, I care less for them. I don?t approve with that religion what so ever. I don?t agree with their interpretations of the Koran. As simple as that.
The reason why I called it ?your? claim is that I think you are old enough to stand up for your own opinions.Just show me this occurrence of the word qur??n where it clearly aims at the whole book. I really don?t care about laughing cousins nor billions of others. I want you to show it to me, can you do that?
As for the 2530, it seems it?s pretty useless translating it to you since you stick to the majority?s translation. Anyway, in case you?d change your mind, here?s a tease? The nature of this ?qur??n? is not established to be a book of 114 chapters in this verse. Can you prove me I?m wrong?
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Hi el aziz,
I am quite not sure about what proof u r looking for.
Are u looking for a statement from Quran that says, ''Quran is the name of this book constituing 114 chapters thats been/will be revealed''?
Peace!
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just one comment bro
I'm not proving anyone wrong, I'm only proving the right I know
for 2530 what other meaning you can come up with here?
this is the verse that is used by the Quran Alone sect and they refer to it strongly
again there is a difference between translations and meanings, and because we should only hold the arabic text against the Quran I guess you mean you have different arabic meaning to the arabic meaning I have concerning 2530?
english translations or any translated language for that matter can not be admissable against the arabic quran, make sense bro?
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Hey,
Hi el aziz,
I am quite not sure about what proof u r looking for.
Are u looking for a statement from Quran that says, ''Quran is the name of this book constituing 114 chapters thats been/will be revealed''?
Peace!
It seems pretty much of an overkill to have it spelled out to that extent but yes, that is what no one has been able to give any logical explanation to this far.
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Ahmad,
By the Quran Alone Sect, I assume you mean Rashad Khalifas sect?
Myself, I think what they?re promoting is nothing but mumbo jumbo, so if you don?t have anything you?d like to add from their perspective, I?d say we leave them with their ideas, shall we?My translation at first sight would read something like ?and the messenger says ?my Lord, my people has forsaken this call/proclamation??. There?s nothing really implying that it would refer to the book where this scenario is being painted.
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Ahmad,
By the Quran Alone Sect, I assume you mean Rashad Khalifas sect?
I was not really targeting them but I say many of the new wave of Quran alone ones, forget the sect word
Myself, I think what they?re promoting is nothing but mumbo jumbo, so if you don?t have anything you?d like to add from their perspective, I?d say we leave them with their ideas, shall we?
finally we agreed on somethin
My translation at first sight would read something like ?and the messenger says ?my Lord, my people has forsaken this call/proclamation??. There?s nothing really implying that it would refer to the book where this scenario is being painted.
ok thanks
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MQ But it's doesn't call itself 'al-kitaab'/the book. It calls itself 'tafseel al-kitaab'/the detailing/parsing of al-kitaab (10/37).
Kyle The details make up the Whole, we cannot proclaim the whole at once.
Huh ? I dont understand. Al-quraan is said to be the detailing of al-kitaab. It gives you the details of the system. So when you engage with the the system, you look at al-quraan and will detail for you what's going on.
Kyle To tell someone that smoking is incorrect is proclaiming the book. To tell someone to feed the poor is proclaiming the book. But these are details of the WHOLE system.
Ok, I think the root of our lack of agreement is our linguistic strategies. I would never translate the word 'al-quraan' and completely decontextualise the translated word. Tafseel means 'to detail' but 'to detail' in the way al-quraan defines it, not oxford dictionary.
Anyway, I think I see the root of interpretations and I disagree with it. Thanks for the explanation and peace.
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Hi el-aziz,
Hi el aziz,
I am quite not sure about what proof u r looking for.
Are u looking for a statement from Quran that says, ''Quran is the name of this book constituing 114 chapters thats been/will be revealed''?
It seems pretty much of an overkill to have it spelled out to that extent but yes, that is what no one has been able to give any logical explanation to this far.Well, alright. Let me understand.
Do u believe it's a book comprising verses/words from God?
Lets forget, for now, the name of the book.Peace!
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Hey there PM,
Hi el-aziz,
Well, alright. Let me understand.
Do u believe it's a book comprising verses/words from God?
Lets forget, for now, the name of the book.Peace!
As far as I?m concerned, the epithet of ?God?s words? is all semantic. There?s no book that can be exclusively one of God?s. I?m not being ironic as I say that Donald Duck comic strips contain as much of God?s words as the Koran does. Although, the Koran contains a lot of things that are more of interest to the philosopher.
God?s words stretches far beyond what words of ink and paper can ever speak of.Shlama!