the reading(quran) is not the title of any book

jonny_k

Salam "el-aziz",
Did you ever study the mathematical patterns in the Quran specifically those based on number 19? If not then please do so. Go visit www.submission.org and dont just skim through the articles containing the math miracle but consider each point with care. The mathematical symmetry in the Quran is so perefect, marvellous and unlike any other book. It cannot be from a human or humans. GOD Bless!

el-Aziz

Hey Jonny,

Salam "el-aziz",
Did you ever study the mathematical patterns in the Quran specifically those based on number 19? If not then please do so. Go visit www.submission.org and dont just skim through the articles containing the math miracle but consider each point with care. The mathematical symmetry in the Quran is so perefect, marvellous and unlike any other book. It cannot be from a human or humans. GOD Bless!

Yes I have indeed studied that web page. There are also other such "miracelous" sites talking of the koranic miracles. Most of them proves either nothing or they are slightly manipulated as it comes to counting words, verses etc?
One of the most crucial part of Rashad Khalifas self claimed prophecies is that hadiths are the work of Satan. Still, he authorizes the deletion of two verses in the Koran based partly on such a hadith.

I suggest you take a look at the true mathematic miracles in this calculator and tell me what you find after that, ok?

regards,
St?phane

jonny_k

Salam el-aziz,

Hey Jonny,

Salam "el-aziz",
Did you ever study the mathematical patterns in the Quran specifically those based on number 19? If not then please do so. Go visit www.submission.org and dont just skim through the articles containing the math miracle but consider each point with care. The mathematical symmetry in the Quran is so perefect, marvellous and unlike any other book. It cannot be from a human or humans. GOD Bless!

Yes I have indeed studied that web page. There are also other such "miracelous" sites talking of the koranic miracles. Most of them proves either nothing or they are slightly manipulated as it comes to counting words, verses etc?
One of the most crucial part of Rashad Khalifas self claimed prophecies is that hadiths are the work of Satan. Still, he authorizes the deletion of two verses in the Koran based partly on such a hadith.

I suggest you take a look at the true mathematic miracles in this calculator and tell me what you find after that, ok?

regards,
St?phane

JK- Did you visit http//19.org/index.php?id=26,57,0,0,1,0 ? If not please do so. Its a statistical analysis of the Quran made by Richard Voss. Also please consider reading the article "intellgent peoples to code-19" by Edip Yuksel in order to distinguish a real miracle from a fake one http//19.org/?books
Do you find other books where the number of days in singular form equal 365 and plural form 30? Can this be coincidental? How about the word "month" occuring twelve times while GOD even mentions that the count of the months is twelve in the Quran? How about the sea and land percentage of the words "sea(bahr)" and "dry land(barr/yabbas)" equalling exactly that found on earth? Does any other book show such symmetry? Notice this now. The Quran's first verse, "In the Name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful," known as Basmalah, consists of 19 Arabic letters. Its constituent words occur in the Quran consistently in multiples of 19.

The first word...."Ism" (Name).....occurs.......19 times.

The second word..."Allah" (God)....occurs.......2698 times (19x142)

The third word...."Al-Rahman" (Most Gracious)...57 times (19x3)

The fourth word..."Al-Raheem" (Most Merciful)...114 times (19x6)

Professor Cesar Majul looked at the gematrical value of more than 400 attributes of God, and found only four names whose gematrical values are multiples of 19 whose GVs correspond exactly to the frequencies of occurrence of the BASMALAH's four words.

Divine Name Gematrical Value

"Waahed" (One) 19
"Zul Fadl Al-`Azim" (Possessor of Infinite Grace) 2698
"Majid" (Glorious) 57
"Jaami`" (Summoner) 114

As noted above, the only Divine Names whose gematrical values are divisible by 19 correspond exactly to the frequencies of occurr- ence of the BASMALAH's four words. The figure below illustrates this remarkable phenomenon

Name (Ism) ______ 19 ________ (Waahed) One

God (Allah) ______ 2698 ________ (Zul Fadl Al-`Azim) Possessor of Infinite Grace

Most Gracious (Al-Rahman)______ 57 ________ (Majid) Glorious

Most Merciful (Al-Raheem)______ 114 ________ (Jaami`) Gatherer

The four words of Basmalah are shown on the left side, and the only
four divine names whose gematrical values are divisible by 19 are
on the right side. The numbers in the middle are the frequencies of
occurrence of the words of Basmalah, and, at the same time, the
gematrical values of the four divine names.

Also please note that when we compare the Quran's properties to other books the Quran clearly stands out. Ill give you a few examples

There is NO book in the world, whether religious or non religious, which has been memorized by as much ppl as the Quran has been. The Quran is the ONLY Book which has been memorized in its original Arabic form by more than millions of ppl. Most of those ppl r not even true believers i.e. they r sects like sunnis, shias, ahmedis, etc who follow corrupt hadith besides Quran. Yet GOD preserved His Book through them. This too is a miracle.
No book in the world praises GOD as much as the Quran does or lays so much stress on the fact tht THERE IS NO god BUT GOD. U will immediately notice this by going through this awesome Book. Just a few examples
O people, worship only your Lord - the One who created you and those before you - that you may be saved.
and yet another stress
The One who made the earth habitable for you, and the sky a structure. He sends down from the sky water, to produce all kinds of fruits for your sustenance. You shall not set up idols to rival GOD, now that you know.
Your god is one god; THERE IS NO GOD BUT HE, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
GOD bears witness that there is no god except He, and so do the angels and those who possess knowledge. Truthfully and equitably, He is the absolute god; THERE IS NO GOD BUT HE, the Almighty, Most Wise.
Follow what is revealed to you from your Lord, there is no god except He, and disregard the idol worshipers.
When they were told, "Laa Elaaha Ella Allah ," they turned arrogant.
Did I not covenant with you, O Children of Adam, that you shall not worship the devil? That he is your most ardent enemy?
And that you shall worship ME ALONE? This is the right path.
This is just a tiny multitude of how much stress is laid on the fact tht GOD Alone is to be worshipped. No other religious books lays so much stress on this fact. Show me otherwise if u r truthful.
No other book in the world praises GOD as much as the Quran does neither does any of them stress on His mercy n forgiveness like the Quran. This also becomes immediately obvious after reading It. Just a few examples
In the name of GOD, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Recall that Moses said to his people, "O my people, you have wronged your souls by worshiping the calf. You must repent to your Creator. You shall kill your egos. This is better for you in the sight of your Creator." He did redeem you. He is the REDEEMER, MOST MERCIFUL.
Comment Ull find these attributes of GOD again and again while reading the Quran. No other book in the world lays so much stress on GOD's Mercy n other qualities.
He is the one GOD; there is no other god beside Him. To Him belongs ALL PRAISE in this first life, and in the Hereafter. All judgment belongs with Him, and to Him you will be returned.
ALL PRAISE is due to Him in the heavens and the earth, throughout the evening, as well as in the middle of your day.
Praise be to GOD - to whom belongs everything in the heavens and the earth; ALL PRAISE is also due to Him in the Hereafter. He is the Most Wise, the Cognizant.
To GOD belongs ALL PRAISE; Lord of the heavens, Lord of the earth, Lord of the universe.
Glorifying GOD is everything in the heavens and everything on earth. To Him belongs all kingship, and to Him belongs ALL PRAISE, and He is Omnipotent.

4)No other book in the world uses self defense 4 itself in the way the Quran does. A few examples

Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.
If they say, "He fabricated it," say, "Then produce one sura like these, and invite whomever you wish, other than GOD, if you are truthful."

Is it possible then tht the Quran be from satan? The Quran also says
When you read the Quran, you shall seek refuge in GOD FROM SATAN the rejected.
If the Quran were from satan then we wld never have found such a command in It. Nothing in the Quran goes in the favour of satan. Christians believe the Quran to be from satan only because it refutes their corrupt, illogical n irrational belief in the 'trinity' n tht Jesus was GOD in the flesh, a belief which is 1)NOWHERE to be found in the old testament 2) Even in the new testament we can find no clear statements indicating this concept. Nowhere did Jesus ever say tht he is GOD. Also this concept was invented by the Niacene Council THREE HUNDRED YEARS AFTER JESUS PASSED AWAY. GOD also gives the analogy of Jesus n Adam in the Quran
The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.
*359 The "equality" of the creation of Jesus and Adam is confirmed mathematically; Jesus and Adam are mentioned in the Quran the same number of times, 25 times each. COINCIDENCE?

The Quran has the most number of attributes used for GOD.

Are all these points still not enough to consider the Quran to be from GOD? GOD Bless!

el-Aziz

Salam el-aziz,

...........................................

Are all these points still not enough to consider the Quran to be from GOD? GOD Bless!

They are false, yes indeed. Inaccurate and stupid.
However, I would be delighted to discuss this matter but I'm afraid it doesn't seem to fit this section of this forum, does it?

Anyway, let me know when you've used the calculator...

Peace!

unknownuser

Peace el-Aziz,

My translation at first sight would read something like ?and the messenger says ?my Lord, my people has forsaken this call/proclamation??. There?s nothing really implying that it would refer to the book where this scenario is being painted.

I believe that no doubt the messenger called/proclaimed to his people all that was commanded of him. But his call/proclamation was written down in a book form to be remembered for generations to take heed on. Once in a book form, in cannot be a "call or a proclamation" by verbal speech, but by reading. Keeping in mind that every book on earth has a recognition by its title, hence, this very book being an Arabic one, was given the same title of Quran in Arabic, which you see it as a call/proclamation. It is not necessary for any book to testify and authenticate its' title/name within its own contents. Besides, I sincerely doubt that anyone on earth has either come across or changed the name/title of this book, other than what IT IS.....The Quran.

unknownuser

Hey danish

sorry about the clash we had when I joined, i just didn't know you, neither you knew me however I started to sense the many wisdom in your words

thanks bro

Fahad1

Not at all. The words of the Koran are the words of man. They are written by men thus there's nothing that can guarantee them being other than that.

words of man ? ! try this arrow

"There was a fundamental crisis in mathematics about a hundred years ago, a basic disturbance that affected all of logic till it was repaired. Logicians realized that for centuries they had left out the concept of "Self-reference." For centuries, Aristotle?s rule of the "Excluded middle" had been used. This rule is a proposition that states, "Every proposition is either true or false." Somebody was smart enough to question that very proposition. What if that proposition that states that every proposition is either true or false is false? People had overlooked that for centuries. Not so the Koran. If the Koran is what it claims to be then it should be aware of self-reference, as applied to its own statements."
click here
Koran and Self-Reference

(for discussion with the author, visit http//rationalreality.forumsplace.com/message42.html )
.

unknownuser

Hello All

Please read the following and I will keep adding to it

The inimitability of the Quran
The inimitability of the Quran is not limited to its content. In fact, the Holy Book of Islam is held by the Muslim scholars to be inimitable not only in its content but also in its language. The Quran, it has been constantly maintained, embodies linguistic and literary beauty which exceeds anything of human origin. This is borne out by the fact that no-one has ever been able to compose anything remotely resembling it in its linguistic, literary, or conceptual elegance. This point is repeatedly emphasized in the Holy Book itself. Thus the Quran says

"If the whole of mankind and the jinn were to gather together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed each other up."

(8

The inimitable nature of the Quran was recognized by generation after generation of scholars. Al-Tabari (d. 923) dealt with this subject in his voluminous study of the Holy Book.

Al-Zamakhshari elaborated on this theme in his famous al-Kashshaf, as did Baydawi in his Tafsir. AlBaqillam, a prominent scholar, wrote a book which he devoted entirely to this subject and to which he gave the title I'jaz al-Quran (The Inimitability of the Quran). Here he wrote

The Quran is so wonderfully arranged and so marvellously composed, and so exalted is its literary excellence that it is beyond what any mere creature could attain.

Al-Jawziyya, also a noted scholar, added that

Whoever knows Arabic and is acquainted with lexicography, grammar, rhetoric, and Arabic poetry and prose recognizes ipso facto the supremacy of the Quran

Ibn Khaldun also dealt with certain aspects of the style of the Quran

The inimitability of the Quran consists in the fact that its language indicates all the requirements of the situation referred to, whether they are stated or understood. This represents the highest degree of speech. In addition, the Quran is perfect in the choice of words and excellence of arrangement.

The inimitability as well as the linguistic significance of the Quran can be better understood within its pre-Islamic context and according to the role language played during that period. Furthermore, the linguistic significance of the Quran can also be better understood within that same context. The linguistic aspect of the Holy Book was brilliantly used by the Prophet in challenging and eventually prevailing upon his fellow Arabs who held in high esteem those who were eloquent and articulate. The eloquence of the Quran clearly impressed and overwhelmed them. This explains why the Quran has been referred to as 'Muhammad's miracle', or. as the 'miracle of Islam'. The use of the power of the Quran as a means of persuasion was admitted by the Prophet himself and was mentioned repeatedly in the Quran mostly in the form of a challenge to the disbelievers to produce something similar. On the need and justification for the Prophet to use a book such as the Quran, Ibn Qutayba wrote

God offered the Quran as the Prophet's sign in the same way as He offered signs for all the other prophets. He sent the things most appropriate to the time in which they were sent. Thus Moses had the power to divide the sea with his hand and rod, and to let the rock burst forth with water in the desert, and all his other signs in a time of magic. And Jesus had the power to bring the dead back to life, to make birds out of clay, to cure those who had been blind from birth and the leprous, and all his other signs in a time of medicine. And Muhammad, may God bless him and grant him salvation, had the book and all his other signs in a time of eloquence.

Footnotes
A number of excellent works were devoted entirely to this aspect of tne Quran, e.g., al-Suyiti, al Itqan, and al-Baqillani, I'jaz al-Quran, Beirut, 1979.

Abu Ja far Muhammad b. Jarir al-Tabari, Tafsir al-Quran.

Mahmud b. Umar al-Zamakhashari (d. 1143).

Nasr al-Din al-Baidawi (d. 1286)

Al Baqillan, Op. Cit.. pp 45 ff

Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya, Kitab al-Fawai'id al-mushawwig ila ?ulum al-Quran wa'ilm al-bayan, Cairo, 1909, pp. 7, 246.

Ibn Khaldun, Op. Cit., vol. 3, 338

Ibn Qutayba, Kitab Ta'wil mushkil al-Quran, Cairo, 1954, p. 10.

Ibn Khaldun, Op. Cit., vol. 3, 1266

unknownuser

Hello, just a small bit of info

Those are the known Arabs who took the Quran challenge only to fail misreably

Ibn al-Mukaffa

Musaylimah

Abul Ala al Marri

Yahya b. al Hakam al Ghazal

Sayyid Ali Muhammad

Ibn al Rawandi

Bassar bin Burd

Sahib Ibn Abbad

Abul Atahiya

I may post a lil info regarding each one failed try.

Peace

el-Aziz

Not at all. The words of the Koran are the words of man. They are written by men thus there's nothing that can guarantee them being other than that.

words of man ? ! try this arrow

............................

Would you mind putting it in your own words instead? You have already refered to the article in question and I have already read it. Please show me what relevance this has to what I just stated about the Koran being the word of man and not of God?s.

Regards,
S

el-Aziz

Frid Danish,

Peace el-Aziz,

My translation at first sight would read something like ?and the messenger says ?my Lord, my people has forsaken this call/proclamation??. There?s nothing really implying that it would refer to the book where this scenario is being painted.

I believe that no doubt the messenger called/proclaimed to his people all that was commanded of him. But his call/proclamation was written down in a book form to be remembered for generations to take heed on. Once in a book form, in cannot be a "call or a proclamation" by verbal speech, but by reading. Keeping in mind that every book on earth has a recognition by its title, hence, this very book being an Arabic one, was given the same title of Quran in Arabic, which you see it as a call/proclamation. It is not necessary for any book to testify and authenticate its' title/name within its own contents. Besides, I sincerely doubt that anyone on earth has either come across or changed the name/title of this book, other than what IT IS.....The Quran.

?and I don?t believe that this refers to something that has occured but is actually happening.
I don?t mind a book having a title to be recognized by, but I?m confident that ?qur??n? inside the Koran does not refer to the book itself, but the call or proclamation that is to be remembered with the help of this book. The call does not fit in any book, but the whatever book (such as the Koran) may very well speak of the call, not actually reproducing it or giving account for it in words that can be typed with ink.

Fahad1

Not at all. The words of the Koran are the words of man. They are written by men thus there's nothing that can guarantee them being other than that.

words of man ? ! try this arrow

............................

Would you mind putting it in your own words instead?

why do i need to put it in my own words ?! the author has written and explained in better words than i can explain in my words . why do u need my words ? what if i say the exact thing that the article says ?!

You have already refered to the article in question and I have already read it. Please show me what relevance this has to what I just stated about the Koran being the word of man and not of God?s.

you wrote

The words of the Koran are the words of man. They are written by men thus there's nothing that can guarantee them being other than that.

i was just providing you that guarantee ,that the Koran is something other than words of men . something that it claims to be .

however i think that this discussion about "word of god or man" should be continued on seperate thread .

el-Aziz

Not at all. The words of the Koran are the words of man. They are written by men thus there's nothing that can guarantee them being other than that.

words of man ? ! try this arrow

............................

Would you mind putting it in your own words instead?

why do i need to put it in my own words ?! the author has written and explained in better words than i can explain in my words . why do u need my words ? what if i say the exact thing that the article says ?!

You have already refered to the article in question and I have already read it. Please show me what relevance this has to what I just stated about the Koran being the word of man and not of God?s.

you wrote

The words of the Koran are the words of man. They are written by men thus there's nothing that can guarantee them being other than that.

i was just providing you that guarantee ,that the Koran is something other than words of men . something that it claims to be .

however i think that this discussion about "word of god or man" should be continued on seperate thread .