The point of all this.
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Hello all
not sure what is going on in the discussion between brothers danish and mquran?
i really could not understand what each argument is so I guessed it and I skimmed through the comments
it seems that someone is claiming that we will not be accountable for what we say?
and I have to say, this is not true, as clear as it can get from the verses posted by sister PM that we will be held accountable to what we say, EVERY SINGLE WORD
this means sayings is exactly like actions, in fact I believe I read some where in the Quran that the sayings is far more dangerous to mislead people than actions, I can't remember the verses but I will keep looking
peace
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Peace be upon you all,
Thougts are MORE IMPORTANT than actions because it is thoughts that CREATE the actions. This is why we are told that the God does not change the condition(outer expression) of a people until they change what is in this Spirit/Mind. It is in the realm of THOUGTS that the battle, the real jihad, is fought. The realm of beliefs (thought with energy/emotion behind it).
Thoughts are the SEEDS of the "magical garden of Eden". What we plant there is what we will reap. We reap because these seeds(thoughts) gather energy and grow into our actions/habits and that is how we are judged. So yes, we are judged by our actions, but our actions grow from our thoughts.
The weapons of mass media are destroying many today by the seeds being planted.
Guard your thoughts, and work to accept only the thoughts that submit to the God's Law.
(58 ... and if they came to you, they greeted you with what The God does not greet you with it, and they say in thier minds "If only The God tortures us because (of) what we say." Enough for them Hell they roast/suffer (from) it , so how bad (is) the end/destination?
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Hi Mquran,
It's funny how you say 'I am not sure if its miscomprehension or deliberate/non-deliberate manipulation of an other's words about me when it's ok for you to say that I said that 'words aren't important and our words wont be judged' What I said was According to al-quraan, this is false. It's amaal, not qaul which will be judged upon.
so, according to ur statement, I understand that u have said, '' its actions that will be judged and not the words.''.................right?
Well, in that case I mentioned some say ''words wont be judged''.........how different is it?Where did I say words aren't IMPORTANT? Kindly show me if you're truthful.
U can answer this better. Tell me, would words be judged? If they wont, they aren't important, r they?
Amaal in Quranic terms is action. It may include qaul certainly but what Danish said was Actually both. One must attain righteousness in what they say and what they do. Words are just as important as actions
I dont see any thing false in his statement. Lets deconstruct it, shall we?
U said We will be judged for our amaal, not our words.
Danish said One must attain righteousness in what they say and what they do.
SO far, Danish's statement holds good, according to Quran.
Danish Words are just as important as actions
Every word we utter is being written down by angels so that they will be taken ino account on the day of judgement. So, that would mean words are important just like actions, wont they?
Do you understand this? Amaal isn't a comparable concept to qaul for judgement.
As I understand it, Deeds are accountable, every bit of it. And so are words, every single one. They are 2 entities.
For it not being comparable, I think its u who made the comparison in ur first statemnet when u said '' We will be judged for our amaal, not our words.''I agree. I have felt this to be the case in many discussions
Oh. I see. Is it possible that your comprehension skills are less than perfect? Did you consider the possibility that you may have misunderstood my point or is that possibility totally precluded?Quite possible, Mquran. I am a human after all. If I have, please show me where and how.
You charged me with calling people kaafir before and now you're accusing me of manipulation (an act of kufr, in quranic terms). Lets see if what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I am not charging u with any such label, Mquran. I dont label people. I dont see things as either black or white. And I respect God and all of His creations. Peace!
Here are some questions for you
- I'm certainly not above making mistakes. Would you please point out where I've misunderstood you and manipulated your words?
I can give u loads of examples, but do we really wanna go there? This is what I call going around in circles, pointlessly. And this is what I meant when I said.........''But it definitely is a problem coz the discussion starts revolving pointlessly into a different subject altogether, on clarifications and corrections of what we actually said and how it got manipulated etc.''
- Is your comprehension perfect? If not, is there a possibility that you may have misunderstood what I've said?
No one is perfect. All u have to do is show me where I have misunderstood and how. And if I have, I would apologise and correct my understanding. Peace!
- Should everything we say about ad-deen be verifed by al-quraan or can we speak about ad-deen as we like?
If one specificallly mentions this statement is from Quran, then yes, the verse might be enquired.
If one is stating a personal understanding/opinion, then it makes no sense to say, bring verse from Quran or where is that word mentioned in Quran. Like once when Mehdi had the sect query on, His question for discussion was ''r we forming some kind of a sect in this forum?' and u asked him to bring definition of sect from Quran and started calling him names. Where did he even mention Quran in his statement? It was just his personal, honest query.Since no doubt you're a sincere person with a desire for truth, I've no doubt you will clarify your accusations against me.
Accusations against u? That quite a strong word. Let me clarify, I have no accusations against u. But your manner of discussions has been a problem and has been felt by many.
A few samples of miscomprehension herehttp//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=62760#62760
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=69651#69651
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=65161#65161
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=65224#65224
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=68848#68848
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=69720#69720
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=62534#62534I appreciate ur earnestness to learn Quran. Thats all well. But in a discussion, some amount of respect, comprehension, constructiveness, straightforwardness should be maintained.
Otherwise, we clearly are wasting each other's time.
And thats why I said ''But it definitely is a problem coz the discussion starts revolving pointlessly into a different subject altogether, on clarifications and corrections of what we actually said and how it got manipulated etc.''.So, its good to stick to the discussion and not waste any more effort or time on pointless ranter. I cleary am not interested in it.
Peace!
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Dear T.A.F.K.A.G,
As per our long standing tradition we are drifting off from the subject. ?
There is going to be a problem transferring a discussion forum into a community of ?doers?.
From time to time there are people like your self, eager to get some activity started on the bases of common goals.
There have been groups, forming societies earlier, but it has a tendency to end up in some ritualistic agenda and becoming as religious and excluding as any other groups.One problem is to find sufficient common grounds to initiate a new, all including group, so that anyone may feel at home, regardless of faith etc.
If religion comes in as a part, the whole thing will collapse into just another of many sects around.Each and every one of us may start in our local communities, but wee need a place to go in order not to feel totally on our own. I.e. there must be a physical meeting place somewhere. Internet is fine but only up to a certain point.
This requires a common base, which again means forming a physical group.
How, Who, When, Where, What?Regds
Ali Omar
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PM so, according to ur statement, I understand that u have said, '' its actions that will be judged and not the words.''.................right?
Well, in that case I mentioned some say ''words wont be judged''.........how different is it?Please read my statement again. I said 'AMAAL' not 'qaul'. Of course you think this means that since amaal isn't qaul, qaul's not under amaal. But it is. It's simply not AS important. I wish I could draw a venn diagram for you to show it.
U can answer this better. Tell me, would words be judged? If they wont, they aren't important, r they?
AMAAL are judged. Under amaal, all commandments of Allah are judged.
When I say 'qaul' wouldn't be judged, this is in context of what I said above. 61/2-3 for example when you 'taqulu' but not 'taf'alu'. So you can all you want about Islam but unless you do something about it, it's not going to save you.
107/1-3 says those who practise kazb on ad-deen are those who do not feed orphans or help the poor. Can you show me an equivalent statement for those who don't SPEAK correctly ? Do you understand what Im saying now?
Danish Words are just as important as actions
Every word we utter is being written down by angels so that they will be taken ino account on the day of judgement. So, that would mean words are important just like actions, wont they?
Really? Then why does Allah calls those who don't spend in his way as AL-KAFIREEN (2/254). Can you show me an equivalent for those who aren't polite, for example?
Quite possible, Mquran. I am a human after all. If I have, please show me where and how.
See above. You've certainly misunderstood there.
I am not charging u with any such label, Mquran. I dont label people. I dont see things as either black or white.
Label? No, you didn't call me a manipulatOR but you say
And as always, u have misunderstood/manipulated his statement
So you didn't call me 'kaafir' but you accused me of 'kufr' (Kufr is an act of concealment and manipulation is a way to conceal the truth).
And I respect God and all of His creations. Peace!
This is in contradiction to the ethos of al-quraan, if you care to know.
I can give u loads of examples, but do we really wanna go there? This is what I call going around in circles, pointlessly. And this is what I meant when I said.........''But it definitely is a problem coz the discussion starts revolving pointlessly into a different subject altogether, on clarifications and corrections of what we actually said and how it got manipulated etc.''
Loads ? Give me ONE example. If you make an accusation, come up with the facts. You don't make an accusation and think you're above giving proof.
Your statement was And as always, u have misunderstood/manipulated his statement
So in the other words I ALWAYS misunderstand and I ALWAYS manipulate.
It shouldn't be too difficult to come up with examples then, don't you think?
If one specificallly mentions this statement is from Quran, then yes, the verse might be enquired.
If one is stating a personal understanding/opinion, then it makes no sense to say, bring verse from Quran or where is that word mentioned in Quran.Hey? That's rather strange. You mean to tell me, unless we speak about al-quraan, we don't need to evidence our actions from the book? Can you show me where Allah said this please?
For example, you said al-quraan teaches us to 'be respectful to all' . You didn't provide any evidence for this. When I explained it to you again and again that al-quraan never said this, you just ignored my posts. Are you telling me that's what al-quraan tells you to do?
Like once when Mehdi had the sect query on, His question for discussion was ''r we forming some kind of a sect in this forum?' and u asked him to bring definition of sect from Quran and started calling him names. Where did he even mention Quran in his statement? It was just his personal, honest query.
Good. I can see now how you position al-quraan. Nowhere does al-quraan tell you that only when you speak about al-quraan, you need evidence. Rather, it tells you to JUDGE with al-kitaab bil haqq and NOT judge with you hawaa (5/4. So when Mehdi spoke of FM being a sect, I used al-quraan to check if FM is a sect. I checked what is a sect in light of al-quraan. Can you prove to me that is the wrong way to use al-quraan please?
Accusations against u? That quite a strong word. Let me clarify, I have no accusations against u. But your manner of discussions has been a problem and has been felt by many.
This is an accusation
And as always, u have misunderstood/manipulated his statementStrong word? 'always manipulated' are strong words too.
Felt by many? How do you define many ? 20 , 30 or a 100 ? Please gather your co-assertors and get them to post each and every occasion where I offended them and I will apologise if my statements were contrary to the book.
A few samples of miscomprehension here
They were certainly your miscomprehensions, yes. I stand by my actions against Jaxal and further, I have been made to pay for it. Lets see if the same goes with you and your above accusation about me.
I appreciate ur earnestness to learn Quran. Thats all well. But in a discussion, some amount of respect, comprehension, constructiveness, straightforwardness should be maintained.
Otherwise, we clearly are wasting each other's time.Well, I take careful pains to make sure my language is precise. If you feel I cannot understand you, then I really don't mind if you ignored me altogether. Instead, you accuse me as you did above and so you will find that I'm not of the 'turn the other cheek' ilk.
And thats why I said ''But it definitely is a problem coz the discussion starts revolving pointlessly into a different subject altogether, on clarifications and corrections of what we actually said and how it got manipulated etc.''.
Good. I want to see ONE example of my misunderstanding and MANIPULATION. Lets see if your defamation has actual substance to it.
So, its good to stick to the discussion and not waste any more effort or time on pointless ranter. I cleary am not interested in it.
Correction what you're not interested in is SUBSTANTIATION. You have made accusations when no one asked you to (funnily you had plenty of time for that. Out of nowhere you came and agreed that I manipulate others words). So now I'm asking you for evidence. Where did I 'always misunderstand and manipulate'?
And while you're mining for data, can you please find evidence for where al-quraan teaches us to 'be respectful to all'?
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Hi Mquran,
They were certainly your miscomprehensions, yes. I stand by my actions against Jaxal and further, I have been made to pay for it. Lets see if the same goes with you and your above accusation about me.
Jaxal? If u r mentioning in relation to the posts I have quoted, u surely seem to have not read them at all. None of which are his.
Loads ? Give me ONE example. If you make an accusation, come up with the facts. You don't make an accusation and think you're above giving proof.
Here's one. Can u show me my post where in I said 'respect the ones who are killing u'? IF not, the matter is settled, isnt it? Peace!
And while you're mining for data,
I am sorry, Mquran. I dont wish to get into a unconstructive catfight with u. So, Peace to u!
Peace!
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Here's one. Can u show me my post where in I said 'respect the ones who are killing u'? IF not, the matter is settled, isnt it? Peace!
It's not settled because I never said you said 'respect the ones who are killing you'.
Your statement was 'be respectful to all'. Here it is again
Quran is a message where Allah is telling mankind to live a righteous life, and to be respectful of all, to be humble, to be patient, to be just, to be kind, to observe charity, to observe moderation, to be kind and forgiving, etc...
Allah is conveying to man that man is accountable for his every action on the day of Judgement.In light of al-quraan. This statement is FALSE. 'all' would include 'people who trying to kill you'. This is the word you used...'ALL'.
So did I misunderstand you ? When you said 'all', did you mean 'all with exceptions' ? If so, why did you not mention it ? Even after I've called you on it, you didn't name exceptions. So to you , al-quraan says 'be respectful to all'.
Please correct me if im wrong. If not the 'ALWAYS MISUNDERSTAND AND MANIPULATE' statement is a false accusation.
I am sorry, Mquran. I dont wish to get into a unconstructive catfight with u. So, Peace to u!
Catfight? I'm asking you for evidence on where AL-QURAAN says 'be respecful to all'.
You said in the above postIf one specificallly mentions this statement is from Quran, then yes, the verse might be enquired.
So where is the verse then? Surely you're not above giving evidence, peacefulmuslim ? In this very post above is your beautiful summation of al-quraan's teachings, you claimed al-quraan teaches us to 'be respectful to all'. Now please prove it.
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Hi Mquran,
This would be my last post to u, on the subject.
So, if I dont reply to these catfight invitations, please dont mind. I really am not interested. Peace!Hi all,
It appears to me, there is more idolising of the Quran .
Quran is a message/guidance from Allah conveying that there is only one God and man should not foolishly waste on worshipping silly elements as Gods.
Quran is a message where Allah is telling mankind to live a righteous life, and to be respectful of all, to be humble, to be patient, to be just, to be kind, to observe charity, to observe moderation, to be kind and forgiving, etc...
Allah is conveying to man that man is accountable for his every action on the day of Judgement.Now, what do people take from the book?
Mathematical miracles
Arabic language miracles etcI think the miracle of Quran lies in its message. The ultimate truth that God is one.
God's signs are everywhere around us. God doesnt have to do magic with numbers or language to make a point to human beings.No offence meant to anyone.
Its just my view and understanding.Peace!
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=65151#65151
Go on, keep misleading people with your 'respect the ones who are killing you' Quran.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=65338#65338
Like I said,
coz the discussion starts revolving pointlessly into a different subject altogether, on clarifications and corrections of what we actually said and how it got manipulated etc.
So, I dont wish to waste any further time/effort on these.
Peace!
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PMIts just my view and understanding.
And no one should try to correct you, is that right?
I ask again where is your evidence?
If you can't produce your evidence, why do you still stand by this?
You claimed that
If one specificallly mentions this statement is from Quran, then yes, the verse might be enquired.So where is the verse?
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Hello peacefulmuslim,
Hi Danish,
I am sorry to say, that by reading your several posts throughout this forum, it seems that you have a comprehension problem and discuss things aimlessly.
I agree. I have felt this to be the case in many discussions.
I am not sure if its miscomprehension or deliberate/non-deliberate manipulation of an other's words. But it definitely is a problem coz the discussion starts revolving pointlessly into a different subject altogether, on clarifications and corrections of what we actually said and how it got manipulated etc.Peace!
I hear you loud and clear, peacefulmuslim, especially your supportive and rectifying posts in response to mquran?s, whose posts seems to have exhibited no bearing after-all. Mquran?s derogative and unethical composure to discussion is not only very annoying, but summons him for the words and actions which he is guilty of on both counts.
Thanks for the anticipation.
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Hi,
I think it is appropriate to mention what T.A.F.K.A.G. called this thread ?the point of all this?, and ask ?what is the point of the discussion now taking place?? tempt
It is becoming ridiculous.If anyone has personal matters to discuss please do so, but make a new thread and call it ?Squabble? or something more suitable. ?
The initial question concerned ?saying? vs. ?doing?.
What are your takings on that?
Try, at least to keep within the vicinity of the subject at hand.Regds
Ali Omar
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Hi Ali Omar,
My apologies!
The initial question concerned ?saying? vs. ?doing?.
What are your takings on that?I think most of us here 'say' what we believe in.
And what we believe in, is what we do as well, to the extent each of us can and wish.Peace!