*Miraculous Birth* of Isa: continued debate
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Peace Zeljko,
You asked
Did Jesus have a wife? How about a child?
The Qur'an is not specific in this regard, however, this may be a clue
We did send messengers before thee, and appointed for them wives and children and it was never the part of a messenger to bring a sign except as Allah permitted (or commanded). For each period is a Book (revealed).
Peace,
Tay -
Salam Tay,
Peace Zeljko,
You asked
Did Jesus have a wife? How about a child?
The Qur'an is not specific in this regard, however, this may be a clue
We did send messengers before thee, and appointed for them wives and children and it was never the part of a messenger to bring a sign except as Allah permitted (or commanded). For each period is a Book (revealed).
Peace,
TayJK- But this verse doesnt say that ALL messengers before Muhammad had wives and children. Taking it as such would be a misnterpretation. Irrespective of whether Jesus had children or not, which is historicaly quite absurd anyways, he was still not a usual person. GOD had definitely blessed him with extraordinary powers which he carried out in accordance with GOD's Will like healing the sick and raising the death by GOD'S leave. GOD Bless!
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Peace Johnny,
You stated
But this verse doesnt say that ALL messengers before Muhammad had wives and children.
Did I say that's what the verse stated??
I said it may be a clue.Irrespective of whether Jesus had children or not, which is historicaly quite absurd anyways...
Please tell me which historical text(non-religious, by definition) even mentions Jesus of Nazareth, besides the account of Josephus. Historically, in regards to Jesus, you don't have much to work with. So, to call anything historically absurd in this regard, is, in itself, absurd.
GOD had definitely blessed him with extraordinary powers which he carried out in accordance with GOD's Will like healing the sick and raising the death by GOD'S leave.
That's irrelevant, whether or not it's true.
Peace,
Tay -
Salam,
In order to assure whether Jesus had kids or a wife we have to bring +ve proof otherwise we cant say that he had any. Moreover why would even the textual religious texts not mention it if he had a wife or children? I find that amazing since the Bible talks consistently of the family of the other prophets but not in the case of Jesus. Hence i say that the very way in which Jesus as born makes him abnormal in this regard. GOD Bless! -
Peace Johnny,
You stated
In order to assure whether Jesus had kids or a wife we have to bring +ve proof otherwise we cant say that he had any.
I disagree. We can't say that he didn't have any, because this is not mentioned in the Qur'an. The Qur'an does mention that messengers had wives and children. Isa was a messenger. Granted, the Qur'an does not say ALL messengers, but since one has to deduce based on what we're given as guidance, then it's only fair to correlate Isa with 1338 as a possibility.
Moreover why would even the textual religious texts not mention it if he had a wife or children?
Because the religious texts were swept into one common theme, and that is the pagan virgin birth story that carried over from generations past. It is common knowledge among Christian and secular intellectuals that there was a massive book-burning and doctrine-erasing party that went on around 325-350 ad. Everything non-conforming was considered heretic, punishable by nothing less than death. Very few doctrines survived this cleansing. See the gnostic gospels and dead sea scrolls for some conflicting reports.
I find that amazing since the Bible talks consistently of the family of the other prophets but not in the case of Jesus.
The NT is all about the teachings of Isa, culminating in his crucifixion. The Qur'an tells us he was not killed nor crucified. You're gonna have to make a choice on which one to believe. If it's the Qur'an, then there's plenty of room and time for Isa to have had a family.
Hence i say that the very way in which Jesus as born makes him abnormal in this regard.
Even if he was born miraculously, why would that stop him from having a family?
Peace,
Tay -
Salam "Tay",
Even if he was born miraculously, why would that stop him from having a family?
Peace,
TayJK- Good point. Thats why i say it's irrelevant whether he had children or not. This doesnt ncessarily make him completely normal like other human beings. He was a special messenger just as GOD says that He raises some above others, as per 2253, BUT we are not to make distinction between them. GOD Bless!
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Peace Jonny,
I believe the emphasis is on the fact that Isa was a normal human being. This is reinforced quite often, as in, he ate food, he was merely a messenger, he will be questioned on the "last day", and, as you mentioned, that there is no distinction among Allah's messengers, etc.
Whatever he did in his life, whether viewed symbolically or literally, was only through the grace of Allah.
Peace,
Tay -
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Peace Jonny,
But thats how it's supposed to be logically otherwise you can explain anything with symbolism.
And you can explain anything with a literal approach as well "Because God said so".
Personally, I prefer to find the lesson in the symbolism that I can apply to my life and verify. But like I said, it's your right to believe whatever you want, brother.
Peace,
Tay -
Salam "tay",
And you can explain anything with a literal approach as well "Because God said so".
JK- Personally i never use this type of approach. Now if taken literal then it is what it is and we can not manipulate the meaning to suit our desire. Thats what was meant. Now th question arises "what does that particular event signify". Well i must admit we dont know for sure right now but we will most assuredly find out in the future since the Quran is for all times so instead of jumping to sudden symbolic conclusions it would be more wise to wait and perhaps GOD will repeat His miracles and everyon e would stand in awe. Thats why I believe He kept those significant miracles mentioned in the Quran.
Personally, I prefer to find the lesson in the symbolism that I can apply to my life and verify. But like I said, it's your right to believe whatever you want, brother.
Peace,
TayJK- Once again this shows you dont have patience. You rush to a conclusion of symbolism where it doesnt say to do so. GOD gives many allegories in the Quran and HE STATES that Hes going to give one now like in 2435. The word "mathal" is used their indicating the allegory. So if GOD meant Isas birth, Moses rod, etc to be allegorically then he would have used a term like "mathal" before mentioinng it. Simple. GOD Bless!
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Peace Jonny,
I stated
And you can explain anything with a literal approach as well "Because God said so".You stated
Personally i never use this type of approach.
I disagree. You use it in the very next sentence
Now if taken literal then it is what it is...
Next, you stated
we can not manipulate the meaning to suit our desire
Of course not. Why, then, do you assume that miracles might be coming in the future without any Qur'anic evidence?
You stated
Now th question arises "what does that particular event signify". Well i must admit we dont know for sure right now but we will most assuredly find out in the future since the Quran is for all times
Like I said, if that works for you, then okie dokie.
It doesn't work for me. A book of guidance should be about guidance, not about waiting for guidance that may not come for generations.so instead of jumping to sudden symbolic conclusions it would be more wise to wait
More wise according to you - not me, nor the Qur'an. Where does the Qur'an tell us that we should wait to understand the meaning of something it advises?
752 And We have come to them with a Scripture which We have detailed with knowledge; a guide and a mercy to those who believe.
See? No mention of waiting for the guidance. It's already there.
perhaps GOD will repeat His miracles and everyon e would stand in awe.
Not really bro. According to the Qur'an(6109, 615, the day such miracles take place, no one who hasn't already believed will believe anyway. It will be too late. So what's the point then?
Once again this shows you dont have patience.
Actually, I'm trying to conform to 1736
How is it that you verify these miracles, bro?You rush to a conclusion of symbolism where it doesnt say to do so.
1736 says I should verify all info. We are told that Allah uses every kind of example(226, 1789). Now you tell me that there must be a disclaimer stating that symbolism is being used.
If that's the case, then you should be able to find every kind of example in the Qur'an, preceded by the words "the following is an example". Please show me these verses brother. Not 1 or 2, but every kind, please.
Simple.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace,
I just want to address the "example" ie. mathal = symbolic point that Layth adheres to, and jonny_k follows, and is advanced above in relation to Jesus' creation/conception.
Peace,
I voted 'all literal'.
When God wants to make a 'symbolic' point, He uses the word 'mathal' (the example)...Other than that all that is said is literal.
God does not leave us guessing...We do that ourselves.
Khi- Salam. Exactly my point. GOD Bless!
Let's have a look at 359
359 The example of Jesus, as far as the God is concerned, is the same as the example of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he became.
Inna mathala AAeesa AAinda Allahi kamathali adama khalaqahu min turabin thumma qala lahu kun fayakoonu
So in this example (excuse the pun) Jesus is described with the term 'mathal' - and Adam is also. Thus the explanation implies a symbolic nature to the creation of each of these individuals.
Even the "mathal" theorists cannot deny this.
Therefore accordingly, this is pointing unambiguously that the nature of Jesus (his creation) is symbolic.
Regards.
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Salam "truth",
I just knew this point would come up some time and voila here you did it. Well you see the verse above indeed gives an allegory of THE COMPARISON BETWEEN JESUS AND ADAM and NOT the virgin birth of Mary. This comparison is symbolical because it is not 100% alike if we consider that Jesus had a mother while Adam had neither father nor mother. It is there to remind us that WITHOUT ANY DOUBT GOD can do just anything and does NOT necessarily have to wait for the laws of nature to come into action with time like the Darwinian evolutionists claim. Dont you get this simple point? GOD doesnt say that Jesus' miraculous birth or his miracles are "mathal" does He? GOD Bless! -
Salam "truth",
I just knew this point would come up some time and voila here you did it. Well you see the verse above indeed gives an allegory of THE COMPARISON BETWEEN JESUS AND ADAM and NOT the virgin birth of Mary. This comparison is symbolical because it is not 100% alike if we consider that Jesus had a mother while Adam had neither father nor mother. It is there to remind us that WITHOUT ANY DOUBT GOD can do just anything and does NOT necessarily have to wait for the laws of nature to come into action with time like the Darwinian evolutionists claim. Dont you get this simple point? GOD doesnt say that Jesus' miraculous birth or his miracles are "mathal" does He? GOD Bless!Hey bro
While I don't agree with your belief in the 19 thingy I do respect your manner bro, excellent attitude
I was preparing about 15 pages reply to the this similitude things "mathal" to discuss it with brother Tay but I changed my mind as he is a very tough (in debating) and picky type of guy, which is fine with me but I don't have the time to commit to go one on one with his arguments (some are good though) so I decided to finish it off and post it for you as it will clearly explain to you and (others) what the word Arabic "Mathal" really means
Peace and God bless