How do we know that Iblis and Satan are the same?
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Salaam Brothers,
I have been following along reading (sometimes with amusement) at the posts to this thread. Unfortunatley I have been to preoccupied and too busy to reply. But I have time now ) .First of all....lets get back to the topic and stop focusing on sarcasm and semantics of our (humanly flawed) speech. Its often very easy by the way to type one thing and have it read by another person to mean something entirely different. We don't all have the same thought pattern.
Second.... I believe the Quran states in 37....
37 (Literal translation acording to YAQB.org) He is who descended on you The Book , from it (are) perfected/tightened verses, they are (F) The Book's origin/mother , and others resembling/ambiguous/obscure , so but those who in their hearts/minds (is) deviation from truth , so they follow what resembled from it, asking/desiring the treason and asking/desiring its interpretation/explanation , and none knows its interpretation/explanation except God. And the affirmed in the knowledge , they say "We believed with it, all/each (is) from at our Lord, and none remember/mention except (those) of the pure minds/intelligence ."I think I can see the symbolism that idolfree mz357, and Tay are talking about but I don't know if it holds true in all instances and also at present time I can't find any verse in the Quran that suggests we should read it as allegorical. Please provide verses if you can find any.
Third.... With the second point in mind...someone please explain to me how Iblis and Shaitan get confused as the same entity (in arabic....forget the english translations who call Iblis the devil and satan etc) I'm talking about the Arabic verses that referre to SHAITAN and the others that referre to IBLIS and how some Muslims consider them to be one entity.
Salam,
I believe the difference on THE WORD GRAMMATICAL LEVEL between "iblis" and "shaitaan" is the same as that between "allah" and "ilah" where the first is specific and the second common. "iblis" can often be found to have been translated by Arabic dictionaries as "THE Devil" or "Satan(with capital S)". Thus "Iblis" may be equated with "ASH(silent "l" before sun character "sheen")-shaitaan" in Arabic measning "THE devil". And i agree it refers to a particular devil, the Boss Devil. GOD Bless!I'm sorry I don't see it....how can the fact that both words contain the same character mean that they share the same or similiar definition....a root word I understand but not on the basis of the words sharing just a single character. Forgive my ignorance. I'm sure you can make me understand.
Fourth.....How can Iblis be a Shaitan....and a Jinn? I am thoroughly confused on how the three are intertangled.
Here is my current understanding
Iblis is a Jinn
Shaitan....I don't know what he/those are.
I know that hell is filled with disbelievers and those (of men and jinn)who commit shirk etc.
The Jinn don't even know the unseen.....
3414 (Free-Minds) Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the Jinn realised that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.
I understand that the root of Jinn is commonly believed to indicate that the jinn are unseen...but they are made of an element (fire) like us (clay) so maybe (I'm just putting it out there for consideration) they ARE SEEN?
Furthermore at present time I cannot find a verse in the Quran that states that the jinn are unseen. Please point it out to me if you can find one.I thank you all for your help.
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Peace arnaab
as I stated before
Jinn can be good and bad
the bad one is labeled Shaitan
it is nothing but a label to a bad Jinn, it can also be applied to a bad human, we use this commonly in the arab countries and to the extreme we can call a very bad human "Iblis"
regarding your query about not seeing them, here it is and clearly the label Shaitan, which means a bad Jinn was used to refer to "Iblis"
O children of Adam! let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their evil inclinations, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them; surely We have made the Shaitans to be the guardians of those who do not believe.
(27)
Peace
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Salaam Ahmed,
Jinn can be good and bad
Agreed Akhi
the bad one is labeled Shaitan
it is nothing but a label to a bad Jinn, it can also be applied to a bad human, we use this commonly in the arab countries and to the extreme we can call a very bad human "Iblis"
Please excuse my ignorance I have not seen a verse to support this yet.
regarding your query about not seeing them, here it is and clearly the label Shaitan, which means a bad Jinn was used to refer to "Iblis"
O children of Adam! let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their evil inclinations, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them; surely We have made the Shaitans to be the guardians of those who do not believe.
Here is where the confusion begins I think. Lets walk through this....
234 (Maulana Ali) And when We said to the angels, Be submissive to Adam, they submitted, but Iblis (did not). He refused and was proud, and he was one of the disbelievers.
Iblis refused to prostrate to Adam and later in the Quran we are told he was of the jinn
235 (Free-Minds) And We said "O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong."
236 (Free-Minds) So, the devil (alshshaytanu in arabic) tricked them from it, and he brought them out from what they were in, and We said "Descend, you are enemies of one another. And in the land shall be stability for you and luxury for a while."
I have read where Iblis did not prostrate to adam.....and I have read where shaitan expelled adam and his wife from the garden....but not where Iblis and shaitan are the same entity. It seems to me (at this point in my studies) that they are two different entities.
Furthermore if you referre to the TorahIt was the serpent (Nachash in hebrew) that made the woman slip.
Bereishit 31
(hebrew) Vehanachash hayah arum mikol chayat hasadeh asher asah HASHEM Elokim vayomer el-ha'ishah af ki-amar Elokim lo tochelu mikol etz hagan.
The serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which HASHEM G-d made; and it said to the woman, "Did G-d even say that you should not eat from all the trees of the Garden?"Bereishit 32
(hebrew) Vatomer ha'ishah el-hanachash mipri etz-hagan nochel.
The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat from the fruit of the trees of the Garden.Bereishit 34
(hebrew) Vayomer hanachash el-ha'ishah lo mot temutun.
The serpent said to the woman, "You certainly will not die.Bereishit 313
(hebrew) Vayomer HASHEM Elokim la'ishah mah-zot asit vatomer ha'ishah hanachash hishi'ani va'ochel.
HASHEM G-d said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" She said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."Bereishit 314
(hebrew) Vayomer HASHEM Elokim el-hanachash ki asita zot arur atah mikol-habehemah umikol chayat hasadeh al-gechonecha telech ve'afar tochal kol-yemei chayecha.
HASHEM G-d said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you from among all animals and beasts of the field. On your belly you shall crawl. And dust you shall eat all the days of your life.I appreciate your thoughts....
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Peace Arnaab,
You stated
lets get back to the topic and stop focusing on sarcasm and semantics
My apologies for letting the sidetrack get out of hand.
at present time I can't find any verse in the Quran that suggests we should read it as allegorical. Please provide verses if you can find any.
I believe the ayah you provided (37) is exactly what you're looking for. You'll notice there is no disclaimer, as in, some sort of red flag before all allegorical verses. Remember, Allah does not shy from using any allegory, no matter how small (226).
please explain to me how Iblis and Shaitan get confused as the same entity (in arabic....forget the english translations who call Iblis the devil and satan etc) I'm talking about the Arabic verses that referre to SHAITAN and the others that referre to IBLIS and how some Muslims consider them to be one entity.
Please provide the specific ayat you're referring to.
Peace,
Tay -
May peace be upon you, Ahmed. >-
likewise mate
enjoy the new year, it is pouring in sydney now however it was 44 degress yesterday, a day from hell
peace
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Salaam Ahmed,
Jinn can be good and bad
Agreed Akhi
the bad one is labeled Shaitan
it is nothing but a label to a bad Jinn, it can also be applied to a bad human, we use this commonly in the arab countries and to the extreme we can call a very bad human "Iblis"
Please excuse my ignorance I have not seen a verse to support this yet.
Peace bro, not sure what you after in a verse?, to say that Iblis is a Shaitan?, well it is very well established in arabic that Shaitan is a label and is not the name of any one
if you compare the verses of the story of Adam as read in many locations, you will see 100% that Iblis is a Shaitan
regarding your query about not seeing them, here it is and clearly the label Shaitan, which means a bad Jinn was used to refer to "Iblis"
O children of Adam! let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their evil inclinations, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them; surely We have made the Shaitans to be the guardians of those who do not believe.
Here is where the confusion begins I think. Lets walk through this....
but you didn't respond to the verse you asked for regarding humans not being able to see the jinns?
234 (Maulana Ali) And when We said to the angels, Be submissive to Adam, they submitted, but Iblis (did not). He refused and was proud, and he was one of the disbelievers.
Bro, sorry to side step, I strongly believe that to refer to a human as "Maulana" is shirk as this word was used explicitly in the Quran to refer to Allah
I would say "Shaihk" is more appropriate
The above is just my perosnal opinion
Iblis refused to prostrate to Adam and later in the Quran we are told he was of the jinn
of course he is one of the Jinns and because he is a very naughty one he earned the label "Shaitan"
235 (Free-Minds) And We said "O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong."
236 (Free-Minds) So, the devil (alshshaytanu in arabic) tricked them from it, and he brought them out from what they were in, and We said "Descend, you are enemies of one another. And in the land shall be stability for you and luxury for a while."
that is the proof that Iblis = Shaitan, as read in 236
I have read where Iblis did not prostrate to adam.....and I have read where shaitan expelled adam and his wife from the garden....but not where Iblis and shaitan are the same entity. It seems to me (at this point in my studies) that they are two different entities.
sorry it can't
shaitan is a label for a bad jinn, and if you extract all the conext where Adam stopry was mentioned no one can get it wrong becaise it is clear 100% that Iblis was labeled Shaitan = a bad Jinn = a bad human as commonly known in the arab world
Furthermore if you referre to the Torah
It was the serpent (Nachash in hebrew) that made the woman slip.
Bereishit 31
(hebrew) Vehanachash hayah arum mikol chayat hasadeh asher asah HASHEM Elokim vayomer el-ha'ishah af ki-amar Elokim lo tochelu mikol etz hagan.
The serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which HASHEM G-d made; and it said to the woman, "Did G-d even say that you should not eat from all the trees of the Garden?"Bereishit 32
(hebrew) Vatomer ha'ishah el-hanachash mipri etz-hagan nochel.
The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat from the fruit of the trees of the Garden.Bereishit 34
(hebrew) Vayomer hanachash el-ha'ishah lo mot temutun.
The serpent said to the woman, "You certainly will not die.Bereishit 313
(hebrew) Vayomer HASHEM Elokim la'ishah mah-zot asit vatomer ha'ishah hanachash hishi'ani va'ochel.
HASHEM G-d said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" She said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."Bereishit 314
(hebrew) Vayomer HASHEM Elokim el-hanachash ki asita zot arur atah mikol-habehemah umikol chayat hasadeh al-gechonecha telech ve'afar tochal kol-yemei chayecha.
HASHEM G-d said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you from among all animals and beasts of the field. On your belly you shall crawl. And dust you shall eat all the days of your life.I appreciate your thoughts....
well, I do like the Torah and believe in many passages in it, but only the passages that will run in harmony with the Quran
I know that story of Adam in the Torah is slightly stretched hence I can not take it as a reference in here
however it is not releveant because what we are discussing is, if Iblis = Shaitan or not IN ARABIC,
To summarize my replys
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Jinn can be bad and good
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The bad ones are labeled Shaitan (commonly known and established in arabic that even make them call a bad human Shaitan and to the Very Bad ones they refer to them as Iblis"
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The Quran never "explicitly" said Iblis = Shaitan, but because the story was repeated numerous times, it is clear as light from the many contexts that Iblis = Shaitan = Bad Jinn
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The logic says from the story that it was Iblis who refused to prostrate then he got really mad and was filled was a massive amount of hatred to all humanity because we were the reason for him being cursed, therefore he started his mission straight away to fool humanity as he promised Allah and surely the story tells us that Iblis (shaitan) fooled our parents to cause their exit from the garden
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the Quran does not need to say things that can be understood from the many repition as the Quran is for mature people not for Kidergarten kids whom we need to explain every thing to them as they sure have no idea to a degree that they can't answer 1 + 1 = 2
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This method of context cross refrence is one of the miracles of the Quran, therefore it is sure for mature humans who can cross refrence
peace bro
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Salaam,
I looked up the word "satan" in hebrew and it means adversary.
in arabic "satan" means roughly arrogant/disobediant.
So it makes sense that a shaitan is an adversary/arrogant/disobedient and a state of mind.
It also makes sense that some people referre to people or jinn as shaitan.
And if you look at the Torah and the verses on how the serpent made adam and his wife slip from the garden you realize that the serpent is referred to as a shaitan in the Quran.
But I still don't see that Iblis is in fact the serpent mentioned in the Torah and I can't conclusively say that just because we are told that Iblis did not submit to Adam that he is therefore the shaitan that made Adam and his wife fall from grace. Just because the verses are close together speaking of Iblis and shaitan...234 (Maulana Ali) And when We said to the angels, Be submissive to Adam, they submitted, but Iblis (did not). He refused and was proud, and he was one of the disbelievers.
and
236 (Free-Minds) So, the devil (alshshaytanu in arabic) tricked them from it, and he brought them out from what they were in, and We said "Descend, you are enemies of one another. And in the land shall be stability for you and luxury for a while."
Just because these two verses are close together I can't conclusively settle on the fact that Iblis is the shaitan that tricked Adam and his wife.
I'm trying hard to make sense of this. And I appreciate all of your responces.
if you compare the verses of the story of Adam as read in many locations, you will see 100% that Iblis is a Shaitan
I agree that Iblis is a shaitan.
but you didn't respond to the verse you asked for regarding humans not being able to see the jinns?
O children of Adam! let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their evil inclinations, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them; surely We have made the Shaitans to be the guardians of those who do not believe.
Sorry I didn't address this because as far as I can tell right now.....that verse speaks of shaitans not jinn.
At this point I guess Iblis is a proper noun and shaitan is an adjective and the serpent is probably an allegorical description.
Another thought is Iblis is probably a shaitan.
But I don't know that the shaitan spoken of in 236 and 727 is Iblis. -
Peace Arnaab
I?m not sure what you are after exactly?, and due to time restraint this will be my last comment to you regarding this subject.
I thought you want to know if Iblis is a "Shaitan" or not?, while the compelling evidences can be found in the story of Adam, it seems to me, this was not enough to you, hence I concluded that you want to be sure that the bad ones from the Jinns are called ?Shaitan? as you concede that Iblis is a "Jinn", it also seems to me that you don?t want to accept the testimony of a native Arabic speaker that "Shaitan" is a LABEL and is given to the bad ones within the Jinns and in the Ins (humans)
Well, let us hear the Quran talk again, in the following verse, Allah has used the label ?Shaiateen? to describe the bad ones in the Jinn and human race
?And thus did We make for every prophet an enemy, the Shaiteen from among men and jinn, some of them suggesting to others varnished falsehood to deceive (them), and had your Lord pleased they would not have done it, therefore leave them and that which they forge.?
(112)
-> Clear as light that the enemy of the prophets, were CALLED ? ?, ie. ? the Shaiteen from among men and jinn?
-> And because we know that ?Iblis? was the only ?Jinn? up there during Adam incident
-> And because it was referred to that ?Jinn? as ?Shaitan? in another location in the Quran talking about the same story
CONCLUSION
?Iblis? is a ?Jinn? and is labelled ?Shaitan? because he is a naughty Jinn, and Shaitan is a label given to the bad ones in the Human and Jinn races as per 6112
I rest my case
Peace be with you
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Peace be upon yuo Ahmed,
Your argument above was that since the God did not call the hypocrites hypocrites, that it is not about hypocrites, yet I dont see any word for terrorist AT ALL. NO WHERE AT ALL. So what kind of reasoning are you using?
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Peace be upon yuo Ahmed,
Your argument above was that since the God did not call the hypocrites hypocrites, that it is not about hypocrites, yet I dont see any word for terrorist AT ALL. NO WHERE AT ALL. So what kind of reasoning are you using?
Peace mate
Well they MUST SAY THEY BELIEVE IN ALLAH AND THE LAST DAY
They must cause mischief on earth
They are dumb deaf and blind
And when we tell them stop they say we are the good ones
Please tell me who else other than those?
At least the verses describe very sick so called believers and the Muslim terrorists like laden, zarqawi and the suicide bombers must fall under this category
So I will take it as such because it makes sense to me and I'm convinced
Thanks mate
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Peace be upon you,
Well if you are convinced, then no need in me debating it.
I'm sorry you are convinced
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Peace be upon you,
Well if you are convinced, then no need in me debating it.
I'm sorry you are convinced
No worries tahnk you bro
i was just wondering why you are sorry that I'm convinced?
i don't feel sorry for you that you are convinced with the metaphor thingy and all other strange things you promote, it is your freewill bro
peace be with you