MANY DISCREPENCIES ON THE FREE MIND FRONT PAGE
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Salam sister "PM",
Yeah, I dont need any number miracle to believe in Quran as a message from God. My belief is based on the message and not on some number or some structural pattern.
JK- Ok then you should know that the Bible,being a collection of various scriptures, also has scriptures in it which contain an almost perfect message. Why not stick with those laws then? Dont you see that this is relative. In our current society people wont accept "lashing 100 times" or even "marking the hands" unless SOLID PROOF can be brought up that the message is really from GOD. Actually you dont really believe in the complete Quran but maybe part of it, parts which you like you accept while others you reject. Thats not how it should be. Then i might just go and pickout the best parts from the Bible or geeta, veda, etc and start following it. Big deal!
So, u r saying code 19 proves to u Quran is from God while other scriptures(since they dont have code 19) of other faith arent from God.
JK- Yep thats right, code-19 is the strongest proof we have today of the Quran's authenticity. Btw in parts of the Torah fragments of code-19 were found too which shows they too were from GOD but got lost with time.
Here is a question for u. Say, for eg, there comes a scripture now which is mathematically and beautifully structured with code 19, which says
''there are 19 Gods such as sun, moon, dove, ants, swan, monkey, aligator, venus, crow, mountains, fire, thunder, lion, owl, snake, grasshopper, bee, stars and rainbow, each of which have different roles in creation and maintenance of life and world.
and Certain races such as the white are superior to all mankind and all other races are meant to be their slaves
and sun rises in west
and water contains evil horned devils living in them etc''wink Would u believe its from God?
JK- I dont believe Satan can immitate the mathematical pattern in the Quran. It has never been done and cannot be done. GOD doesnt allow Satan to succeed.
If all u want is proof such as code 19 to believe in a book as from God,
What if someone comes up with code 21 in New Testament, Would u then believe the new testament are the exact words of God and thus start believing Jesus is our saviour? winkJK- As i said it isimpossible. GOD doesnt allow Satan to triumph. Satan cant match GOD and neither the patterns He makes.
And here is what Allah says in Quran to those who keep asking for miracles and signs to believe in Quran
2949 Nay, here are Signs self-evident in the hearts of those endowed with knowledge and none but the unjust reject Our Signs.
2950 Ye they say "Why are not Signs sent down to him from his Lord?" Say "The signs are indeed with Allah. and I am indeed a clear Warner."
2951 And is it not enough for them that we have sent down to thee the Book which is rehearsed to them? Verily, in it is Mercy and a Reminder to those who believe.
2952 Say "Enough is Allah for a witness between me and you He knows what is in the heavens and on earth. And it is those who believe in vanities and reject Allah, that will perish (in the end).JK- I dont keep asking for proofs. GOD sent His proof as He deemed at fit and you are rejecting it while i gladly accept it and say "GOD be praised". Do you see the difference. Btw did you know that Abraham also asked for a sign
Abraham said, "My Lord, show me how You revive the dead." He said, "Do you not believe?" He said, "Yes, but I wish to reassure my heart." He said, "Take four birds, study their marks, place a piece of each bird on top of a hill, then call them to you. They will come to you in a hurry. You should know that GOD is Almighty, Most Wise."And regarding u saying, some people believe in Quran and Islam, only becoz of the miracle Code 19, I'd like to point out that ur mere mentioning of Code 19 as the reason for one to be in Islam, may make converts of islam want to leave Islam, becoz the belief is crude and blind.
No offence meant.
Peace!
JK- Hows this belief crude and blind especially when it converted a die hard atheist like bro Bahman( http//www.y19.net ) to the Quran Alone? Now let me ask you something Did you read brother Edip's article "Intelligent People's guide to code-19"? GOD Bless!
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Pheonix you are bright young man. Read Idiot's Guide to Code 19. This will show you the true picture of Code 19.
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/ayman19.htm
You can also follow the debate in Articles section between Ayman and Edip.
Bmbmm you should also read this excellent article and debate.
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Salam "KGB" and "Phoenix",
Pheonix you are bright young man. Read Idiot's Guide to Code 19. This will show you the true picture of Code 19.
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/ayman19.htm
JK- Ha ha ha! lol lol lol That is exactly the article brother Edip has debunked with his article "Intelligent people's guide to code-19" at http//19.org/?books . First Ayman's Idiot Guide is represented in point 0, then bro Edip goes on to debunk his article in the rest of the parts. You should have gone through all of them but i guess you couldnt even understand the simple fact that the page divide the article into 28 parts plus bibliography. Too bad. Now go and read the entire article i.e. all parts. GOD Bless!
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Salam "mquran",
Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them
(47/24)And you call KGB ignorant ?
JK- Lemme make one thing clear here. I dont mean that we can not use our heart's feeling at all. We may use it IN ADDITION TO INTELLECT as per 1736. GOD Bless!
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Layth There is no error, the numbering is deemed to be correct as explained in the Preface to the translation.
Where the discrepency lies is in the current 'Hafs' versions of the Scripture that are being mass produced.
I see. Can you please tell us how Warsh version isn't discrepant but Hafs is ? What criteria are you employing in this deduction?
Do we care about 'truth' or about following the masses and simply blending in?
We should by rights, care about THE truth. Of course the question is how the truth is determined.
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JK- Lemme make one thing clear here. I dont mean that we can not use our heart's feeling at all. We may use it IN ADDITION TO INTELLECT as per 1736
Ah good. My intellect thus asks
Can you please tell me where al-quraan says to count MULTIPLES of 19?
Can you please show this to me ?
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Salam "mquran",
Ah good. My intellect thus asks
Can you please tell me where al-quraan says to count MULTIPLES of 19?
Can you please show this to me ?
JK- 7430-35 makes clear that theres a purpose, a SECRET purpose of the number 19 as per 741-2. Using your intllect you should know that GOD wanted this secret to be unravelled in our time period. Thertefore mentioning in the Quran to make multiply of 19 would have made this prophecy of no effect. Brother Bahman realized this well before you and has been continuosuly answering the same question you are now asking. Now please go and read the 28 parts of bro Edip's "Intelligent People's guide to code-19" http//19.org/?books. It answers this question and all the other questions you may have regarding code-19. GOD Bless!
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JK- 7430-35 makes clear that theres a purpose, a SECRET purpose of the number 19 as per 741-2. Using your intllect you should know that GOD wanted this secret to be unravelled in our time period
Wow, really ? The word 'secret' (sirr) and 'purpose' (qasd, irada) isn't in the verse. All 74/31 tells us is that the number 19 is the number of malaaika. That's the clear book for you.
My intellect is somewhat lacking compared to yours. It lacks imagination.
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Salam "mquran"
JK- 7430-35 makes clear that theres a purpose, a SECRET purpose of the number 19 as per 741-2. Using your intllect you should know that GOD wanted this secret to be unravelled in our time period
Wow, really ? The word 'secret' (sirr) and 'purpose' (qasd, irada) isn't in the verse. All 74/31 tells us is that the number 19 is the number of malaaika. That's the clear book for you.
My intellect is somewhat lacking compared to yours. It lacks imagination.
JK- Read my underlined phrase above. I said per 741-2. The whole sura 74 talks about code-19(Mudatthir or Hidden/Secret). Again and again you refuse to read "Intelligent People's guide to code-19".
PS "mquran" until you read the article "Intelligent people's guide to code-19" ill not respond to you anymore and consider you dishonest for not taking the initiative to study the other side as well. After reading you can come back here and we'll discuss it. GOD Bless!
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salam
i was actually trying to show someone about the site and upon trying to verify the links for this person I stumbled upon the discrepencies and my reason for pointing it was to know if A It was an accident perhaps it could be fixed ...B try to understand how to find the verses on the front page in the other version of the quran translation
PS I do not own the MEssage nor have I ever physically touched it so I do not know what contained inside the message forward but I do know the numbering was off on the front page and that could hurt dawah if that is not listed or labeled some where on the page!
i have no intention on creating discord amongst persons who may frequent this site
amanda
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Hi Jonny k,
JK- Ok then you should know that the Bible,being a collection of various scriptures, also has scriptures in it which contain an almost perfect message.Why not stick with those laws then?
Oh, u think the current bible contains perfect message? Jesus, a human being is God??????? Perfect truth??? Jesus died for our sins??? God died for man's sins???? Perfect Message??? Not according to my understanding. And that is why I dont believe the present bible is the word of God. And not becoz it doesnt have a mathematical miracle in it. wink
Dont you see that this is relative. In our current society people wont accept "lashing 100 times" or even "marking the hands" unless SOLID PROOF can be brought up that the message is really from GOD. Actually you dont really believe in the complete Quran but maybe part of it, parts which you like you accept while others you reject. Thats not how it should be. Then i might just go and pickout the best parts from the Bible or geeta, veda, etc and start following it. Big deal!
Well, Well ! Let me correct u here. And please dont take the liberty of telling me what I believe, without any knowledge of it. I believe the entire Quran is from God. All verses. My understanding of Quran and God, is that God says what he does in Quran, with & for a just reason always. There are no rules in the Quran for the heck of it. God doesnt have rules in Quran without a reason/sense/purpose. While some focus on the rules itself, I try to focus also on the fulfillment of the reason/purpose also. Anyways, This is one's approach towards understanding Quran and God. God tells me to use my reason and understanding, and so I will.
And never did I say I believe in only certain verses from Quran. So, Please dont speak for me.Then i might just go and pickout the best parts from the Bible or geeta, veda, etc and start following it. Big deal!
U should. Everyone should and many do !
Who says bible, geeta or vedas dont have good parts? Ofcourse we can follow, wisdoM and truth from anywhere. God is the source of all wisdom, truth and goodness, be it from bible, geeta or veda or anywhere else. Dont we take meditation and Yoga from hindu teachings????????So, u r saying code 19 proves to u Quran is from God while other scriptures(since they dont have code 19) of other faith arent from God.
JK- Yep thats right, code-19 is the strongest proof we have today of the Quran's authenticity. Btw in parts of the Torah fragments of code-19 were found too which shows they too were from GOD but got lost with time.
Thats crap! The message of Quran is whats important. Not some number.
Why 19? Why not 3 or 8 or 11 or 13 ????????
U r basing ur whole belief on God on a number.JK- I dont believe Satan can immitate the mathematical pattern in the Quran. It has never been done and cannot be done. GOD doesnt allow Satan to succeed.
JK-GOD doesnt allow Satan to triumph. Satan cant match GOD and neither the patterns He makes.There is nothing 'God' about ur code 19. U r basing ur belief of God on a number.
U want to see God's miracles? Go watch a bird fly. Go watch a child talk. Go watch the snow, the rain. Look all around u. U will find miracles of God everywhere.JK- I dont keep asking for proofs
U dont? Then why do u need code 19 to believe in Quran?
JK- Hows this belief crude and blind especially when it converted a die hard atheist like bro Bahman( http//www.y19.net ) to the Quran Alone? Now let me ask you something Did you read brother Edip's article "Intelligent People's guide to code-19"? GOD Bless!
Becoz the belief is blind and crude. Sensible people dont believe in any book, becoz it has stuctural pattern in it, but becoz of the truth in the message.
Will u believe in a book of medicine, if it has the correct facts and truth, or if it has a structual pattern in it?
I dont know what is with bahman or any other code 19 person. All I can say is its a very blind belief, just like people in the olden days believed blindly.
Yeah, I skimmed through ur article. Didnt find anything intelligent about it though. It was quite the contrary. No offence meant.
Peace!
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JK- Read my underlined phrase above. I said per 741-2. The whole sura 74 talks about code-19(Mudatthir or Hidden/Secret). Again and again you refuse to read "Intelligent People's guide to code-19".
Man, do you ever read the Quran for yourself?
Look at 74/4 Wa L Tamnun Tastakthir/And You don't expect gain'
You're telling me a CODE expects gain ? Oh boy, please.Then look at 74/5Wa Lirabbika Fbir /And for your Lord REMAIN PATIENT.
A code needs to be told this? Sorry dude, unacceptable.
PS "mquran" until you read the article "Intelligent people's guide to code-19" ill not respond to you anymore and consider you dishonest for not taking the initiative to study the other side as well. After reading you can come back here and we'll discuss it.
Thanks, that's some favour you're doing me. I don't consider you dishonest though. Only honesty can produce the passion you display.
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Salam sister "PM",
Oh, u think the current bible contains perfect message? Jesus, a human being is God??????? Perfect truth??? Jesus died for our sins??? God died for man's sins???? Perfect Message??? Not according to my understanding. And that is why I dont believe the present bible is the word of God. And not becoz it doesnt have a mathematical miracle in it. wink
JK- And again you dont read my post carefully. Im talking about CERTAIN SCRIPTURES in the Bible. The Bible is a collection of scriptures, you know. The psalms for example contains much truth.
Well, Well ! Let me correct u here. And please dont take the liberty of telling me what I believe, without any knowledge of it. I believe the entire Quran is from God. All verses.
JK- May i ask on what premise. Without code-19 the boundaries of the Quran are undefined as mentioned and explained in my article "The difference between Quran and Mushaf" which i sent to you before.
My understanding of Quran and God, is that God says what he does in Quran, with & for a just reason always. There are no rules in the Quran for the heck of it. God doesnt have rules in Quran without a reason/sense/purpose. While some focus on the rules itself, I try to focus also on the fulfillment of the reason/purpose also. Anyways, This is one's approach towards understanding Quran and God. God tells me to use my reason and understanding, and so I will.
And never did I say I believe in only certain verses from Quran. So, Please dont speak for me.JK- Ok sorry. But this means you take certain verses to be for a particular time only while GOD is calling upon the believers in general in those verses where pounihsment for theft or 100 lashes is mentioned. Thus those laws cannot be time bound logically speaking.
U should. Everyone should and many do !
Who says bible, geeta or vedas dont have good parts? Ofcourse we can follow, wisdoM and truth from anywhere.JK- Yes BUT NOT AS THE WORD/LAW OF GOD and thats the point. Even if a law/word seems perfectly Divine to you in the Bible or any other book you can still not claim it to be from GOD or even that it is universally good FOR ONLY GOD KNOWS WHAT IS GOOD FOR ALL OF US IN ALL TIMES. That's why we cannot rely on mere good words in a scripture. Do you get it now?
God is the source of all wisdom, truth and goodness, be it from bible, geeta or veda or anywhere else. Dont we take meditation and Yoga from hindu teachings????????
JK- GOD has put and encoded all those of His Wise Sayings and Laws relevant to us in the Quran. And we dont follow meditation and yoga from hindu teachings. Who told you that?
Thats crap! The message of Quran is whats important. Not some number.
Why 19? Why not 3 or 8 or 11 or 13 ????????
U r basing ur whole belief on God on a number.JK- The above phrase youve just asked makes you part of those mentioned in 7431
We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) ... (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.
This is exactly what youve done. You are asking why 19, why not anything else. It is GOD's decision that He chose code-19 and theres no one NO ONE to question GOD why He did so. We see the proof and we gladly accept it. And for your information my belief in GOD is dependant NEITHER on Quran nor code-19.There is nothing 'God' about ur code 19. U r basing ur belief of God on a number.
U want to see God's miracles? Go watch a bird fly. Go watch a child talk. Go watch the snow, the rain. Look all around u. U will find miracles of God everywhere.JK- I know and i appreciate all of them. But you dont seem to appreciate code-19 miracle which is according to 7435 one of the greatest.
U dont? Then why do u need code 19 to believe in Quran?
JK- GOD has sent It and He wanted it to be so. I accepted His sogn and obeyed. Henceforth i see no other way.
Becoz the belief is blind and crude. Sensible people dont believe in any book, becoz it has stuctural pattern in it, but becoz of the truth in the message.
JK- THIS IS NOT TRUE! Both bros Edip and Bahman are very sensible people, you know. Edip is a philosopher, jurist, skepic, reseacher and was an ex-sunni scholar who has written and published many books. Brother Bahman is an electrical engineer. Dr . Richard Voss is a PHd in matjematics and has shown the Quran's code to be true also at http//19.org/index.php?id=26,57,0,0,1,0
Will u believe in a book of medicine, if it has the correct facts and truth, or if it has a structual pattern in it?
JK- Ill first have to see practical aspects in order to confirm whether the things written in that book are correct. Just believing in a book of medicine without confirmation would be stupid and hazardous. And there's a differnce between a medical book which is time bound and the Quran WHICH IS FOR ALL TIME as you claim to believe yourself. Hence we may find things unacceptable to us in the Quran so we have to have an alternative method to believe in those. Code-19 gives us jst that. It seems that you are very short sighted.
I dont know what is with bahman or any other code 19 person. All I can say is its a very blind belief, just like people in the olden days believed blindly.
JK- ITS EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE!! EXACTLY THE OPPSITE. YOUR THE ONE WHOS BELIEVING BLINDLY. WE HABE DONE OUR THOROUGH ANALYSIS AND NEVER EVER FOLLOW ANYTHING BLINDLY. WE USED THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD AND FOUND A CONSISTENT INTERLOCKING PATTERN IN THE QURAN BASED ON NO.19 WHICH YOU DONT BOTHER TO STUDY.
Yeah, I skimmed through ur article. Didnt find anything intelligent about it though. It was quite the contrary. No offence meant.
Peace!
JK- You must have read part 0 only. If thats the case then know that that part was just a repetetion of a code-19 REJECTOR. The real article begins in part 1 through 28. You should not only skim through it BUT read it very carefully and read everything, the whole article without prejudice. Then come back and well discuss the points you dont find intelligent right here. If your intellectuially honest youll do that. GOD Bless!
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JKRead the article "Intelligent people's guide to code-19" and then come back here and we'll discuss it. GOD Bless!
Johnny, i've read it and as I told you, 19 doesn't pass the Quranic criteria for me. I don't mind if you think im a kafir, munaafiq or whatever. However, I'd appreciate it if in the spirit of efficiency, you don't assume that everyone who doens't agree with you hasn't read the works you recomended.
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Salam "mquran",
Johnny, i've read it
JK- You read the whole article from part 1-28, really?
and as I told you, 19 doesn't pass the Quranic criteria for me. I don't mind if you think im a kafir, munaafiq or whatever. However, I'd appreciate it if in the spirit of efficiency, you don't assume that everyone who doens't agree with you hasn't read the works you recomended.
JK- No if youve really read the article and you find something is not right then your welcome to present it here so we can discuss it. Thats what i expect from intellectually honest persons. If then, after all that peaceful and intellectual discussion, you still dont agree then to you is your way and to me is mine. Peace. GOD Bless!
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JK- No if youve really read the article and you find something is not right then your welcome to present it here so we can discuss it. Thats what i expect from intellectually honest persons. If then, after all that peaceful and intellectual discussion, you still dont agree then to you is your way and to me is mine. Peace. GOD Bless
'lakum deenukum waliya deeni' is something you say to AL-KAFIROON (109/6). So am i kafir for rejecting code 19?
Sunnis if you don't believe in sahih hadith (authenticated and criteria set by our scholars) ur kafir
19ers if you dont believe in the code 19 (authenticated and criteria set by RK), ur a kafir.Similarities all over , arent there!
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'lakum deenukum waliya deeni' is something you say to AL-KAFIROON (109/6). So am i kafir for rejecting code 19?
Sunnis if you don't believe in sahih hadith (authenticated and criteria set by our scholars) ur kafir
19ers if you dont believe in the code 19 (authenticated and criteria set by RK), ur a kafir.Similarities all over , arent there!
JK- Comparing code-19 to hadith is the most stupid thing one can do for one is part of the Quran while the other is not. 2ndly hadith are sayings wheras code-19 is a code, a pattern integrated in the Quran. And yes in my view those who have received the sign of code-19, thereafter reject it are unbelievers. So i may well say what i said and what else should i say. Should i start slaughtering those who dont believe like myself like most sunnis and shias do to those who are spostates of their corrupt teachings? NO, i wont do that. You are free to believe in what you want and to reject what you want and so after discussions each goes his own way. Simple. GOD Bless!
PS Im very skeptical of those who claim to believe in Quran Alone but dont believe in code-19 which is part of it. I sometimes think if they are somehow paid by sunnis in order to lead the people away from code-19 and finally from the Quran Alone too by claiming "see, now you guys dont have any proof for Quran, hence you require hadith for Quran". Bro Bahman also shares my view regarding this. I wont for another trick of the hadithis.
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JK- Comparing code-19 to hadith is the most stupid thing one can do for one is part of the Quran while the other is not. 2ndly hadith are sayings wheras code-19 is a code, a pattern integrated in the Quran
Code-19 is a pattern which YOU PEOPLE set. Nowhere in al-quraan does it say 'count the multiples of 19'. You people set that criteria, so al-quraan ISN'T al-furqaan for you. It's so simple Im surprised you don't get it. I'll try one last time
RK found that there are 114 suras in al-quraan, 19/6. Al-quraan never told him to count that way. He did it himself and if anyone says 'at-tauba and al-anfaal are one', he'll be ready to kafir-ise them.
So you're comitting takfeer based on your imagined criteria.
. And yes in my view those who have received the sign of code-19, thereafter reject it are unbelievers. So i may well say what i said and what else should i say.
Good stuff. I won't come to your islamic domain then. Where is it again, just for my information?
Should i start slaughtering those who dont believe like myself like most sunnis and shias do to those who are spostates of their corrupt teachings? NO, i wont do that. You are free to believe in what you want and to reject what you want and so after discussions each goes his own way. Simple. GOD Bless!
Ah, thanks for allowing me to live.
PS Im very skeptical of those who claim to believe in Quran Alone but dont believe in code-19 which is part of it. I sometimes think if they are somehow paid by sunnis in order to lead the people away from code-19 and finally from the Quran Alone too by claiming "see, now you guys dont have any proof for Quran, hence you require hadith for Quran". Bro Bahman also shares my view regarding this. I wont for another trick of the hadithis.
Gosh, you're in even deeper that I thought. Oh well, its your life. I'm pretty happy with the even the infinitesimal insights I have and I've never needed any code. al-quraan has deconstructed the world for me and it could only do this without the shackles of hadith.
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Salam "mquran",
Code-19 is a pattern which YOU PEOPLE set. Nowhere in al-quraan does it say 'count the multiples of 19'. You people set that criteria, so al-quraan ISN'T al-furqaan for you. It's so simple Im surprised you don't get it. I'll try one last time
JK- We people didnt set it. RK DISCOVERED IT BY GOD's LEAVE. Thats it. The pattern was already there set by GOD. GOD reveals His signs at the time and place He desires and not where and when ceratin people want it to be.
RK found that there are 114 suras in al-quraan, 19/6. Al-quraan never told him to count that way. He did it himself and if anyone says 'at-tauba and al-anfaal are one', he'll be ready to kafir-ise them.
JK- RK was inspired by GOD to reveal the pattern just like Muhammad was inpired with the Quran. Simple. Did you want GOD to use another method in order to convince you? Sorry dude, this is not how it works.
So you're comitting takfeer based on your imagined criteria.
JK- RK was a scientist and employed the scientific method on the Quran. He did not expect to find anything at first. He was almost always objective. Brother Edip and others have conformed this as they worked with RK. Then in 1974 it was realized by this same method that the Quran indeed had such a pattern. If you deny the code-19 in Quran then you might as well deny all modern scieitifc discoveries including dicoveries of the century and throw them in the garbage bin.
Good stuff. I won't come to your islamic domain then. Where is it again, just for my information?
JK- You dont need to.
Ah, thanks for allowing me to live.
JK- What i meant is that we peacefully go our own ways in the end if we cannot agree.
Gosh, you're in even deeper that I thought. Oh well, its your life. I'm pretty happy with the even the infinitesimal insights I have and I've never needed any code. al-quraan has deconstructed the world for me and it could only do this without the shackles of hadith.
JK- Who was the 1st and foremost one to come up with the Quran Alone ideology in our era? RK. Pervezis although claiming to believe in Quran Alone accept Muhammad as the perfect guide and leader amongst all humanity. Which site do most people come across before they become Quran Aloners? www.submission.org . And then after meeting people like Zlatan, Ayman , etc, who while claiming to believe in Quran Alone reject code-19, they join them calling RK a hypocrite and disregarding code-19. Strange aint it? So either you have fallen into their trap or your one of them. I see no other alternative. GOD Bless!