Prophet Mohammed

[Leyla]

Peace

Ahmed

First of all, before going on with the debate, I would like to say should my language have ever slipped in a way non appropriate to you that this was not intentionally.
We are hopefully both not concerned about letting our ego rule here. I hope that discussions like that here in free minds can go on with only seeking for the truth. This, however, sometimes creates high emotional involvement.

so Islam means submitting then?,

Just because within the linguistic structure of modern English the word submission has no relation to the word peace that does not mean that the same applies to quranic Arabic.
This is why direct translations from one language to another are always a very problematic thing, even more so when applied to the explicit and direct word of All?h.

The conditioning that traditional hadithism did made this even more complicated. E.g. the word salawat can according to traditional hadithists both be translated as ritual prayers? and blessings?, depending on the context.
Only when truly diving within the internal structure of qur'?nic Arabic can we find out the true meaning here and see connections and disconnections that are neither present within modern English, nor in modern standard Arabic.

I never objected to your idea that isl?m has meanings of submission. And I am sure brother mquran also never did so.
What I only object to is your claim that the word has no relation to sal?m (meaning peace), a claim just outright wrong in my opinion.

Actually, while in English the two terms establishment of peace? and submission? may be two unrelated terms (though still with related meanings!, as I pointed out to you in a previous post) this is not the case when understanding the relevance of isl?m.
The same problem with translation often happens vice versa.
E.g. al Fatir and al Khaliq are often both in English translated as one word "the Creator". However, we do know that these terms have no linguostic relation to each other.
Rather, Fatir has a linguistic relation to fitrah and Khaliq has a relation to
khalq.
This relation established through the identity of the root to which are applied different grammatical patterns.
This is what I was constantly talking about in my previous posts.
Do you really think that such a system does not exist within Arabic?

Deen in faith, is a set of laws that we have to abide to, these laws are not yours or mine, they are God's laws in His preserved and last message called "The Quran"

I am happy to hear that earnestly you try to find out what the laws of All?h are and that you want to follow them.

But I would say that in my humble opinion one can not see a verse in the qur'?n that simply describes the d?n with All?h as a set of creeds, aka faith.
Im?n is not isl?m in the qur'?n.
This yu know yourself.
Sure conviction of certain principles (like All?h, his malaika, his books and his messengers) is where im?n comes in (see e.g. 2/285).
This is what it is about to be a mu`min.
Not what it is about to be a muslim, I would opine.

Furthermore, even im?n is not just about creeds. The phrase alladhina amanu? in the qur'?n is constantly used in concert with wa amilu-s-salihati?. True im?n will show its fruts in actions.
When you want to judge if the im?n of a person is true or just a bragging claim the only thing you can do is look at his actions.

Apart from that, there is not much for us to judge. You are right, there is a time when we have to pay the d?n back.
And then not only deeds will be judged but also what is hidden in our breast.
But we humans can not form a judgement on intentions or creeds. only on actions.

peace again,

Leyla

[unknownuser]

Peace

Ahmed

First of all, before going on with the debate, I would like to say should my language have ever slipped in a way non appropriate to you that this was not intentionally.

Peace Leyla

Thanks and to be honest that is what I felt, but I appreciate you cleared it out

We are hopefully both not concerned about letting our ego rule here.

I can only confirm my side that sure this is my case

I hope that discussions like that here in free minds can go on with only seeking for the truth. This, however, sometimes creates high emotional involvement.

See, any religious discussions most likely will heat up, i don't know why, possibly it is a human nature, every religious discussion I have with my father on the phone, MUST heat up somehow

so Islam means submitting then?,

Just because within the linguistic structure of modern English the word submission has no relation to the word peace that does not mean that the same applies to quranic Arabic.

I'm not talking modern English neither modern Arabic, I'm talking classic Arabic "Lugha Fusha" that is taught in all schools at all stages in all Arabic Country, this Arabic called Literary Arabic is also the Arabic of the Quran, and I posted numerous verses and you never refuted ANY OF THEM, you just told me they were irrelevant and that is a contradiction by you if the objective is to study the verses of the Quran not to study our feelings, emotions and personal views, while I agree that personal views will also be part of understanding the Quran verses the matter can be resolved between different opinions by using the Quran still

so in Literary Arabic "Salam" or "Silm" means "Peace" and the word was used in the Quran to mean Peace within the context, now whenever the word "Aslam" or "Islam" or ?Aslamo? appeared in the Quran to refer to the religion or talking about something that relates to Allah, THE CONTEXT MEANT ONLY ONE THING which is to submit to Allah, to prove me wrong you have to refute all the verses I posted and show us how the word means "peace" within the context of each verse

This is why direct translations from one language to another are always a very problematic thing, even more so when applied to the explicit and direct word of All?h.

And that is why I don't translate from one language to another as I don?t need, I'm only trying to help the non Arabic speakers brothers and sisters, nothing more, I speak Arabic for 40 years and I read the Quran in Arabic not in English , in fact I will be stupid if I read in English for myself

I never objected to your idea that isl?m has meanings of submission. And am sure brother mquran also never did so.

Well, I guess you maybe right, but neither you nor Mquran refuted the many verses I posted more than once, Mquran turned a blind eye and you said they are irrelevant WHILE THE LOGIC SAYS THE VERSES CAN NOT BE IRRELEVANT because that is what we all here to discuss the verses of the Quran, and the verses I brough on the table are all about the religion of ?Islam? as it was described in the Quran

What I only object to is your claim that the word has no relation to sal?m (meaning peace), a claim just outright wrong in my opinion.

see, there is a confusion here

I mean the two words have no relation whatsoever regarding their meanings, because one means ?Peace? and the ?Other? means ?Submission?

On the other hand, I agree that they share the root, but let me tell you sister the root is the one that is irrelevant here, not the verses of the Quran, I can assure you that I NEVER WAS TAUGHT AS SCHOOLS TO USE THE ROOT TO GET A MEANING OF ANY ARABIC WORD, Arabic words are independent from each other even if they sahre the same root, for example Prophet Solaiman name also share the same root with ?Peace? and ?Submission? also the word ?Salim? which means ?not broken? share the same root with them and it is also a common male name, another word is like this ?Musallam? which means ?Known? and again share the same root, ?Salmah? is another female name, the word ?Sillim? which mean ?Ladder? share the same root sister, see, I can keep remembering many other Arabic words that share the same root ? S L M? for possibly 5 hours and I will get you a list of at least 50 words, just kiddin sister, but I hopr you get my point that the words meaning are independent of each other along with the root even if they share the same root

Actually, while in English the two terms establishment of peace? and submission? may be two unrelated terms (though still with related meanings!, as I pointed out to you in a previous post) this is not the case when understanding the relevance of isl?m.

I?m sorry sister, Submission can not be the same as ?Establishment of Peace? because sometimes to establish peace you need to go to horrible wars and yet peace could not be established, on the other you are missing a huge point in here sister and I hope you pay attention

Islam as an independent word means submission in power and I showed you an example in the verses I posted that shows Solayman asking the Queen of Sheba to submit in power

Islam word as the name of the religion of Allah means only one thing, TO SUBMIT TO ALLAH, not to any human

Do you get it this time sister?

The same problem with translation often happens vice versa.
E.g. al Fatir and al Khaliq are often both in English translated as one word "the Creator". However, we do know that these terms have no linguostic relation to each other.
Rather, Fatir has a linguistic relation to fitrah and Khaliq has a relation to
khalq.
This relation established through the identity of the root to which are applied different grammatical patterns.
This is what I was constantly talking about in my previous posts.
Do you really think that such a system does not exist within Arabic?

Well the system may exist BUT IT IS NOT USED IN DETERMINIG THE MEANING OF THE WORDS, as sinple as this sister, I WS NEVER TAUGHT THIS AT SCHOOLS REALLY and what I studied for years is the Literary Arabic, ?Lugha Arabia Fusha?, the same Arabic structure of the Quran, and the official language to all Arabic nations and is the language all Arabic nations teach at their schools at all stages

Deen in faith, is a set of laws that we have to abide to, these laws are not yours or mine, they are God's laws in His preserved and last message called "The Quran"

I am happy to hear that earnestly you try to find out what the laws of All?h are and that you want to follow them.

good sister, but there two notes please, 1) I started doing this 25 years ago, 2) I?m following them Be Iznoh, NOT that I want to follow them

But I would say that in my humble opinion one can not see a verse in the qur'?n that simply describes the d?n with All?h as a set of creeds, aka faith.
Im?n is not isl?m in the qur'?n.
This yu know yourself.
Sure conviction of certain principles (like All?h, his malaika, his books and his messengers) is where im?n comes in (see e.g. 2/285).
This is what it is about to be a mu`min.
Not what it is about to be a muslim, I would opine.

Did you read my comment sister?

Because if you did, you should know that this is what I said exactly, far out sister

Furthermore, even im?n is not just about creeds. The phrase alladhina amanu? in the qur'?n is constantly used in concert with wa amilu-s-salihati?. True im?n will show its fruts in actions.

The condition is this, sister

For the Amal Saliha to be accepted we must be believers first, being Muslims that is a highest level a believer can achieve, therefore all prophets must have been Muslims, ie. they truly submitted to Allah

When you want to judge if the im?n of a person is true or just a bragging claim the only thing you can do is look at his actions.

Sister, Judging is to Allah only, and as you know Judging MUST BE ACCOMPANIED WITH A VERDICT AND A PENALTY/REWARD, and because what can do this here, therefore what we do is not judgment, they are mere opinions

Apart from that, there is not much for us to judge. You are right, there is a time when we have to pay the d?n back.

that is right sister

And then not only deeds will be judged but also what is hidden in our breast.

well I?m not sure about this sister, do you have a supporting verse from the Quran?

Peace

Ahmed

[DCS123]

And then not only deeds will be judged but also what is hidden in our breast.

well I?m not sure about this sister, do you have a supporting verse from the Quran?

Peace

Ahmed

And know that God knows what is in your souls, so be aware of Him, and know that God is Forgiving, Compassionate. (2235)

O you who believe! Do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand. Lo! you are they who will love them while they do not love you, and you believe in the Book (in) the whole of it; and when they meet you they say We believe, and when they are alone, they bite the ends of their fingers in rage against you. Say Die in your rage; surely Allah knows what is in the breasts. If good befalls you, it grieves them, and if an evil afflicts you, they rejoice at it; and if you are patient and guard yourselves, their scheme will not injure you in any way; surely Allah comprehends what they do. (3118-120)

[Leyla]

Peace Ahmed

so in Literary Arabic "Salam" or "Silm" means "Peace" and the word was used in the Quran to mean Peace within the context, now whenever the word "Aslam" or "Islam" or ?Aslamo? appeared in the Quran to refer to the religion or talking about something that relates to Allah, THE CONTEXT MEANT ONLY ONE THING which is to submit to Allah, to prove me wrong you have to refute all the verses I posted and show us how the word means "peace" within the context of each verse

I agree that context matters a lot.
I also agree that isl?m is not equal to sal?m.
I never said that isl?m means peace.
Please look at my exact formulation.
So, of course I agree that you can not substitute the word isl?m with meaning of sal?m here!
See, I did say that your post of verses was not attached to what I was saying.
I do not need to prove you wrong here because that was not what I was discussing about.
I fully agree here.

I do not say that isl?m means peace. I do say, however, that it is related to it. And that it can be translated as establishment of peace?. I will repeat my point here To give you my deduction I gave you the example of salah and islah to show you the meaning of this grammatical construction. Salah can be translated as what is constructive, good?, it has the same root as salih?. Islah? then means to establish what is constructive?, also translated as reform?.

Exactly same grammatical pattern is used in the relation between isl?m? and sal?m? Yes, isl?m and sal?m are not the same. You are right.
However, the grammatical pattern shows that isl?m is the establishment of peace?, also translated as submission?
(Submission always means the establishment of peace. Submission means to voluntarily stop fighting.)

Of course the context is in the qur'?n always submission/establishment of peace with All?h`s laws.
When everyone submits to these laws within a society, we in effect have total peace.

Arabic words are independent from each other even if they sahre the same root, for example Prophet Solaiman name also share the same root with ?Peace? and ?Submission? also the word ?Salim? which means ?not broken? share the same root with them and it is also a common male name, another word is like this ?Musallam? which means ?Known? and again share the same root, ?Salmah? is another female name, the word ?Sillim? which mean ?Ladder? share the same root sister, see, I can keep remembering many other Arabic words that share the same root ? S L M? for possibly 5 hours and I will get you a list of at least 50 words, just kiddin sister, but I hopr you get my point that the words meaning are independent of each other along with the root even if they share the same root

The point is, brother, that all these words have a shared internal meaning. It is just not apparent when you translate it into English.
Every qualified linguist will agree here.
E.g. salim? means, not broken, whole?. When you have a community that is not broken, you have peace. When your relationship to All?h is not broken, you submit to Him, you have established peace with Him.
Peace is the state of `wholeness, unbrokenness?.
The relation is clear from Arabic, though not from English translation.

The root is not irrelevant here.
Arabic derives meaning from roots and roots are used to derive meaning.

good sister, but there two notes please, 1) I started doing this 25 years ago, 2) I?m following them Be Iznoh, NOT that I want to follow them

Good for you, but I can neither prove nor disprove that. Until now it is just a claim for me. I could only do that when personally knowing you and looking at your actions for some time.
So, I can not say if you are a non muslim or a muslim, a hypocrite or not.
Neither should you say about others here (kyle, joe, mquran) who really struggle to understand the qur'?nic message.

Did you read my comment sister?

Because if you did, you should know that this is what I said exactly, far out sister

Of course I did read your comment, however, I got a different impression from it.
Please correct me

You used the phrase d?n in faith, thus connecting the d?n of isl?m with im?n. However, I would say that this is contradictory to not confusing im?n with isl?m.

One can be a muslim without having im?n, as verse 49/14 clearly shows.
You also equated the term religion with the term d?n.
However, in common understanding religion is about faith. Isl?m, however, is not simply about having im?n.
Again, 49/14 clearly shows this.

You can be a muslim without having im?n in malaika, kutub etc..

The condition is this, sister

For the Amal Saliha to be accepted we must be believers first, being Muslims that is a highest level a believer can achieve, therefore all prophets must have been Muslims, ie. they truly submitted to Allah

Here I largely agree with you again.
You have to be muslin to be a mu'min and im?n will make our actions solid and accepted by All?h.
Though it is according to the qur'?n wrong to say that being a muslim is the highest level a believer can achive.
Again, look at 49/14.
You can be a muslim without having im?n.

Sister, Judging is to Allah only, and as you know Judging MUST BE ACCOMPANIED WITH A VERDICT AND A PENALTY/REWARD, and because what can do this here, therefore what we do is not judgment, they are mere opinions

Good. Then we agree. I just simply got a very different impression when reading your comments on the brothers.

well I?m not sure about this sister, do you have a supporting verse from the Quran?

Not in direct words. No.
What I meant was
Only All?h knows what is in our breasts.
And I am sure that you agree here.

So,let?s just assume someone does something that looks good on the outside e.g. giving a certain amount of money to poors.
And he claims that he does so out of believe in All?h.

However, it is quite possible that this was only a claim and that he gave the money out of egoistic reasons to brag and that he does not really believe in All?h, right?
This is what only All?h can judge because only He knows what is truly in our mindes and what our intentions truly are.

Thanks to DCS 123 for the verses here!

peace again,

Leyla

[mquran]

Ahmed so Islam means submitting then?, also should Islam be the name of the Deen of Allah?

To me, 'islam' is literally 'attainment of salam'. This we can do only through submission and not conflicting.

LeylaThe conditioning that traditional hadithism did made this even more complicated. E.g. the word salawat can according to traditional hadithists both be translated as ritual prayers? and blessings?, depending on the context.
Only when truly diving within the internal structure of qur'?nic Arabic can we find out the true meaning here and see connections and disconnections that are neither present within modern English, nor in modern standard Arabic.

Correct. Professor Kamal Omar has said that al-quraan is its own dictionary ( http//www.thedivinebook.org/ ). I really agree with this.

Furthermore, even im?n is not just about creeds. The phrase alladhina amanu? in the qur'?n is constantly used in concert with wa amilu-s-salihati?. True im?n will show its fruts in actions.
When you want to judge if the im?n of a person is true or just a bragging claim the only thing you can do is look at his actions

Agreed. The 'wa' between 'alladhina aamanoo' and 'amilus saalihat' is an explanatory one, in my opinion. It's not possible to have imaan and not be in islaam.

AhmedSee, any religious discussions most likely will heat up, i don't know why, possibly it is a human nature, every religious discussion I have with my father on the phone, MUST heat up somehow

Try refraining from comments like

1. you're not an arab
2. i've heard this a zillion million times
3. my auntie authenticates this
4. you're too afraid or too egotisical to admit the truth
5. im an arab and you're not so ha-ha

and i have a feeling your discussions will go smoothly from now on.

[Leyla]

mquran To me, 'islam' is literally 'attainment of salam'. This we can do only through submission and not conflicting.

Ah, yes, very good, attainment of sal?m? is probably even a better translation thanestablishment of sal?m?.
Though the practical implication is the same Having stopped fighting/conflicting.

[mquran]

Leyla Ah, yes, very good, attainment of sal?m? is probably even a better translation thanestablishment of sal?m?.
Though the practical implication is the same Having stopped fighting/conflicting

Stopped conflcting in the universal sense of the term, I should add. I would build conceptual relationships between 'salim', 'mussalim' etc. There' a goldmine of conceptual precedences to be built there.

[unknownuser]

Hi Leyla,

One can be a muslim without having im?n, as verse 49/14 clearly shows.
You also equated the term religion with the term d?n.
However, in common understanding religion is about faith. Isl?m, however, is not simply about having im?n.
Again, 49/14 clearly shows this.
You can be a muslim without having im?n in malaika, kutub etc..

What do u mean by 'Iman'?
I understand Iman means faith. How can one be a muslim without faith in God? Faith comes from belief.

4914 The desert Arabs say, "We believe."
Say, "Ye have no faith; but ye (only)say, 'We have submitted our wills to Allah,' For not yet has Faith entered your hearts. But if ye obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not belittle aught of your deeds for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

How does 4914 say that?

Peace!

[Leyla]

Peace

peacefulmuslim

When you read the Arabic of 49/19 the things you can clearly deduce are

The desert Arabs claim "we have im?n" (amann?)
They are told that they have no im?n yet ( lam t?'min?) and should rather say "we are muslims/submitted/stopped conflicting" (aslamna) because im?n (faith in your translation) has not entered their hearts yet.

The only? that your translation gives in brackets is not there in the Arabic and is very misleading! Rather the say? is clear as an imperative command, imho and according to most translators.

This means they are told that they have a right to say "we are muslims" already, but they have no right yet to claim "we are mu'mins" because there is no im?n in their hearts yet.
So, they are muslims according to the qur'?n but still they don?t have im?n.
So, according to the qur'?n you can be a muslim without having im?n.

mquran

I would build conceptual relationships between 'salim', 'mussalim' etc. There' a goldmine of conceptual precedences to be built there.

Exactly! There is so much to discover here! When one looks at the internal relationships of qur'?nic terms one will find a wealth of information.
People who just look into dictionaries or trust common usages will miss this wealth, though.

peace again,

Leyla

[unknownuser]

Peace Ahmed
I do not say that isl?m means peace. I do say, however, that it is related to it. And that it can be translated as establishment of peace?. I will repeat my point here To give you my deduction I gave you the example of salah and islah to show you the meaning of this grammatical construction. Salah can be translated as what is constructive, good?, it has the same root as salih?. Islah? then means to establish what is constructive?, also translated as reform?.

Exactly same grammatical pattern is used in the relation between isl?m? and sal?m? Yes, isl?m and sal?m are not the same. You are right.
However, the grammatical pattern shows that isl?m is the establishment of peace?, also translated as submission?
(Submission always means the establishment of peace. Submission means to voluntarily stop fighting.)

Peace sister

There is no relation in the meaning sister, what you said only relates to the WAZN of the words, the WAZN in Islam and Islah and Ifsad, Ikhrag, Idkhal, Imdaa, Ighsal, Ikrah and zillions other word IS EXACTLY THE SAME which is "Ifaal", in fact almost every root you know off will have the same WAZN, "Fa aa la", therefore you sould know that the WAZN is only for consistancy in prnouncing the words not to link meanings between them, I"M SURE ABOUT THIS SISTER

Let's have an example that was used in the Quran

The root

"Ka Re Ha" which means "to Hate"

"Ikrah" means "Compulsion" "La Ikrah Fi Al Deen"

See, Ikrah and its root are somehow different meaning, do you agree?

Of course the context is in the qur'?n always submission/establishment of peace with All?h`s laws.

I'm sorry sister, you are adding to the meaning here, Islam does not mean "establishment of peace with All?h`s laws"

The definition itself makes no sense, HOW A HUMAN ESTABLISH PEACE WITH A LAW? it sounds funny too sister lol

Eell, you may come and tell me by Abiding to these laws, then I will ask you, would that mean submitting to God's Laws? I'm sure you will answer yes, then it means submitting to Allah I say

But I will accept it as been an elaboration on how to submit to Allah, ie, part of Submitting to Allah is simply Submitting to His laws, now there are many other things that also are parts of Submitting to Allah and has nothing to do with submitting to Allah laws.

Submitting to Allah laws alone = a Believer

Submitting to Allah = a Muslim (this level also covers submitting to Allah laws)

Can you see the difference sister?

When everyone submits to these laws within a society, we in effect have total peace.

That is right but are we full submitters to Allah?

See what you said only covers submitting to the laws of Allah, but not Allah Himself, do you get my point sister?

Submitting to the laws even has nothing to do with peace, because part of submitting to the laws is to pay the penalty if you break it, then I pay and break it again and again and again, especially if the penalty is almost nothing tough

But what will stop me from repeating the offence is ONLY IF I?M A SUBMITTER TO ALLAH, because another part of the Submission to Allah is to fear no one but Him, and if all humans fear Allah alone, i bet you PEACE will dominate earth

Look around you sister and identify the ones you consider submitters to the laws, do you really see them submitters to Allah?

The point is, brother, that all these words have a shared internal meaning. It is just not apparent when you translate it into English.
Every qualified linguist will agree here.

I'm sorry sister, there is no such thing called internal meaning in Arabic.

Also sister if Every qualified linguist is a native Arabic speaker then I bet all my money that they will all agree that Islam does not mean peace rather submitting to Allah

E.g. salim? means, not broken, whole?. When you have a community that is not broken, you have peace. When your relationship to All?h is not broken, you submit to Him, you have established peace with Him.
Peace is the state of `wholeness, unbrokenness?.

See sister you have to keep stretching it trying to convince yourself and others, but not me I'm sorry,

Your definition of Islam is not complete, what you produced only means submitting to the Laws which I call it "Obeying the laws" as Obey is more appropriate word to describe the action, therefore it only put limit in what we need to do to win Allah love, also it does not cover many other things, like if I hit by cancer what should I do knowing I may die in 5 years time?, this has nothing to do with obeying any laws.

Therefore the proper definition to Islam must be submitting to Allah as part of this submission to Him must be obeying His laws

The relation is clear from Arabic, though not from English translation.

As I said earlier sister, THERE IS NO SUCH REALTION OTHER THAN SHARING THE ROOT

The root is not irrelevant here.
Arabic derives meaning from roots and roots are used to derive meaning.

ABSOLUTELY WRONG STATEMNET AND I WOULD LIKE TO SEE FROM WHERE YOU GOT THIS

It should be like this indeed

Arabic derives meaning from WORDS (as any other language) and the Root is used to drive new words

And because they hit a dead end with many words having the same letters, THEY INVENTED THE TASHKIL

good sister, but there two notes please, 1) I started doing this 25 years ago, 2) I?m following them Be Iznoh, NOT that I want to follow them

Good for you, but I can neither prove nor disprove that. Until now it is just a claim for me. I could only do that when personally knowing you and looking at your actions for some time.

Well, you assumed that I WANT to follow it, so I wanted to clear it out that I'm following it not trying to follow it.

Regarding knowing the person in front of you, yes you are right but apply only on the real world not the virtual one

So, I can not say if you are a non Muslim or a Muslim, a hypocrite or not.

Sorry sister the criteria in the Quran tells us that we can because knowing what Islam is very important that every Muslim should know and achieve the action of submission for sure, ie we are talking believers already who strive to reach the Muslim level, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT

Neither should you say about others here (kyle, joe, mquran) who really struggle to understand the qur'?nic message.

Back again to same bloody issue , look sister I SAID ZILLIONS OF TIMES NOW THAT I ASKED HIM A FEW WEEKS BACK AND HE SAID NO WITHOUT GIVING ME THOSE DEFINITIONS, and as I said to Nabi, i only know one definition to Islam and it is in the Quran and I tried to show the verses to you but unfortunately it was irrelevant to you, I can't really help it and you still nagging about my innocent action of calling him non Muslim, well, you might check with him too why he told me as such a few weeks back, as well he is welcome to debate it with me on public or private to enlighten me in how you be a Muslim like him, it sounds very easy Islam to me and sure if I'm convinced I will follow him.

Now can I ask you please NOT to mention Kyle issues with me again?, IT SEEMS TO ME YOU ARE TRYING TO STIR IT LIKE MQURAN DID, that is not Islamic neither quranic btw

Did you read my comment sister?

Because if you did, you should know that this is what I said exactly, far out sister

Of course I did read your comment, however, I got a different impression from it.
Please correct me

You used the phrase d?n in faith, thus connecting the d?n of isl?m with im?n. However, I would say that this is contradictory to not confusing im?n with isl?m.

shock

What was that?, sorry what you said is purely assumptions

One can be a muslim without having im?n, as verse 49/14 clearly shows.
You also equated the term religion with the term d?n.
However, in common understanding religion is about faith. Isl?m, however, is not simply about having im?n.
Again, 49/14 clearly shows this.

NICE TRY sister, I already responded to this one and the verse never meant what you are saying, this is totally misleading, please respond to my comment regarding the verses then

As well you need to explain to us 23 and what believing in the Ghaib means then

You can be a muslim without having im?n in malaika, kutub etc..

According to the Quran No way a muslim can not a believer in what we required to believe in.

Can you prove your case using the Quran?, verse 4914 does not mean what you say, sorry

The condition is this, sister

For the Amal Saliha to be accepted we must be believers first, being Muslims that is a highest level a believer can achieve, therefore all prophets must have been Muslims, ie. they truly submitted to Allah

Here I largely agree with you again.
You have to be muslin to be a mu'min and im?n will make our actions solid and accepted by All?h.

If you agree with me, why then you thought that I understand both as the same?

Also you said something that does not sum up

You said you agree with me while I said you have to be a Mumin to Be a Muslim

Now you came up and said the opposite which is you have to be a Muslim to be a Mumin

Now if you agree that Islam is the highest level of belief then how come, to Qualify for the highest level I guess logically you should be on the lowest level first, because if you are on the heist level already it should be an automatic qualification for the lowest level. as we are talking progressive action called belief that strengthen over time, ie, it is time based not on the fly thingy

Though it is according to the qur'?n wrong to say that being a muslim is the highest level a believer can achive.
Again, look at 49/14.

Firstly you didn?t explain the verse to us, secondly you didn?t respond to my explanation to 49/14, therefore I will assume that what you are saying is hearsay without any proof

You can be a muslim without having im?n.

According to the Quran No way a muslim can not a believer in what we required to believe in.

Sister, Judging is to Allah only, and as you know Judging MUST BE ACCOMPANIED WITH A VERDICT AND A PENALTY/REWARD, and because what can do this here, therefore what we do is not judgment, they are mere opinions

Good. Then we agree. I just simply got a very different impression when reading your comments on the brothers.

Then try to give it a bit of time please to know where I stand

well I?m not sure about this sister, do you have a supporting verse from the Quran?

Not in direct words. No.
What I meant was
Only All?h knows what is in our breasts.
And I am sure that you agree here.

Ok but I don?t think that we can be questioned for ?Naze Al Shaitan? as long as we don?t follow the devil calls inside us we are safe,

I?m sure we can?t be questioned about bad thoughts that come to our mind, unless we make these thought an action and only then we will be questioned,

As you said the verse only tells us that Allah knows anything even what is inside our breast it does not say that we will be questioned according to what is inside out breasts

So,let?s just assume someone does something that looks good on the outside e.g. giving a certain amount of money to poors.
And he claims that he does so out of believe in All?h.

He will look like a believer to me but to see if he is a Muslim or not that is a totally different story

However, it is quite possible that this was only a claim and that he gave the money out of egoistic reasons to brag and that he does not really believe in All?h, right?
This is what only All?h can judge because only He knows what is truly in our mindes and what our intentions truly are.

I agree with that completely

Peace Leyla and I would really like to hear your explanation regarding your only evidence (7914) that anyone can be a Muslim without being a Mumin

Cheers

[Leyla]

Peace Ahmed

If 49/14 is the only evidence does not matter.
Even if it is only one verse in the qur'?n it is enough as evidence.
I see your explanation of 49/14 as obviously incorrect because it totally breaks the internal consistence of the verse.
When your explanation is right the phrase `wa lamm? yadkhuli-l im?nu fi qul?bikum? does not make any sense at all!
Only when accepting that one can be muslim without im?n that phrase makes sense.

2/3 does not contradict my point at all because, well, simply
Where is the term muslim in the verse???
Where isl?m??

Now, please bring me a verse that clearly says that to be a muslim one has to have im?n.
A verse using both the Arabic words muslim and im?n (or related Arabic words as isl?m and mu'min or aslama and amana) that definitely says so!
Not deducin it from assumptions, but from the direct wording please!

"Ka Re Ha" which means "to Hate"

"Ikrah" means "Compulsion" "La Ikrah Fi Al Deen"

See, Ikrah and its root are somehow different meaning, do you agree?

Your again making the same mistake of equating English translations with internal meanings in Arabic.
Unfortunately, I have to be humble enough to say at this point that I simply haven?t studied the root of K-R-H yet.
But I can already see a deep relation here, however, it would only be an assumption if I would mention it. I is probably the same linguistic relation that the English words repulsion and compulsion have. However, a person with more and qualified knowledge in qur'?nic linguistics will however definitely tell you what the relation is and will tell you that there is one because it is just simply a linguistic trait of Arabic that all words with the same root have an internal relation!

The fact that English translations do not confirm this in every case does not disprove anything here because
Every translation from one language into another is always only an approximate translation. There is no word in a language that totally fits the whole meanings and contexts of the translated word in another language.
For someone who speaks more than two languages this is pretty obvious.
I am sure even you know yourself in your practice of switching Englis that sometimes an English translation does not fit in its fullness instead of an Arabic word.
This is because of different internal relations!

Compulsion and hate may not have much relation in English but still ikrah and karaha in Arabic do, because compulsion and hate are always only approximates to ikrah and karaha.

I'm sorry sister, you are adding to the meaning here, Islam does not mean "establishment of peace with All?h`s laws"

Don?t twist my words here!
That?s silly again!
And an unhonest tactic!
From the context of my paragraph it was pretty clear that I was not translating isl?m' with that whole phrase at all and you knew that if you read the whole paragraph. So I am not adding to the meaning. I was only agreeing to you that isl?m? (establishment/attainment of peace) in the context of the qur'?n largely refers to isl?m to All?h alone.

The definition itself makes no sense, HOW A HUMAN ESTABLISH PEACE WITH A LAW? it sounds funny too sister

Of course it sounds funny because you can not always directly translate one language to another because translations are always only approximates.
On the contrary, however, the same phrase does not sound funny at all when translated into German (which I speak).
Maybe it also does not sound funny in French or Spanish or Xhosa or Yoruba. Maybe it does. But that would not say anything.
That it sounds funny in English is no evidence at all.

Look around you sister and identify the ones you consider submitters to the laws, do you really see them submitters to Allah?

Well, the few people that I personally know whom I consider submitters to the laws of All?h have always behaved towards me as submitters to the laws of All?h.
That?s all I can judge.

I'm sorry sister, there is no such thing called internal meaning in Arabic.

Also sister if Every qualified linguist is a native Arabic speaker then I bet all my money that they will all agree that Islam does not mean peace rather submitting to Allah

I repeat myself
I never claimed that isl?m means peace or is equal to sal?m.
Never, never, never.
Stop twisting my words again.
And every native Arabic speaking qualified linguist will tell you that there are internal relations between Arabic words with the same root.
Google one and ask him!

See sister you have to keep stretching it trying to convince yourself and others, but not me I'm sorry,

This starts to become boring for me ..... again google a native speaking arabic linguist and ask him.

Bye,

Leyla

[mquran]

Ahmed HOW A HUMAN ESTABLISH PEACE WITH A LAW?

Lets say there are riots going on. Suddenly there's a law saying whoever riots, he'll be executed. Then there's peace because no one wants his head chopped off.

Strange that's difficult for you to get.

[mquran]

AhmedCan you prove your case using the Quran?, verse 4914 does not mean what you say, sorry

When a person says 'aslamna', what does he become? A kafir ?

[mquran]

Ahmed Now can I ask you please NOT to mention Kyle issues with me again?, IT SEEMS TO ME YOU ARE TRYING TO STIR IT LIKE MQURAN DID, that is not Islamic neither quranic btw

So its not quranic to be called into question for your acts? Do they sell different qurans in australia? ones which tell you the quran is a history book and that the criteria for being muslim is following Ahmed Baghat?

[unknownuser]

Hi Leyla,

The desert Arabs claim "we have im?n" (amann?)
They are told that they have no im?n yet ( lam t?'min?) and should rather say "we are muslims /submitted/stopped conflicting" (aslamna) because im?n (faith in your translation) has not entered their hearts yet.

I think u have explained 4914.

Can u give the translation of it from arabic ,instead? Preferably word to word.

Peace!

[Leyla]

Sal?m peacefulmuslim

Though I did my studies and still do I am definitely no infallible authority when it comes to the language of the qur'?n and (like everyone else) I will probably never be.

When it comes to 49/14, some things still need to be cleared out and studied by me with more engagement, especially the real relevance and use of the term al 'a*rab? (supposedly the beduins?, the desert Arabs?, the Arabs? according to some) within the qur`?n was not studied enough by me yet.
I don?t want to give a judgement here.

So, if I would try to present a word to word translation of this whole verse to you here it would be dishonest and not right. I can not do that for you in the case of this verse.
What is clear to me is that according to what I know already the verse definitely proves that one can be muslim without im?n and that Ahmed?s explanation does not suit.
This I can say with pretty sure confidence!

Instead of trying a word for word translation I will quote four different translations that disagree with the translation that you quoted.
I will quote Shakir, Pikthall, Khalifa and Free Minds. I will also underline for you the specific passage that we were talking about and that proves that one can be muslim (in these translations also submitting/surrendering) without having im?n (in these translations faith/belief).

You should also read Ahmed?s explanation of 49/14 up in this thread, compare it to my reason for thinking why his explanation does not suit at all and then make up your own mind regarding the issue.

Shakir
The dwellers of the desert say We believe. Say You do not believe but say, We submit; and faith has not yet entered into your hearts; and if you obey Allah and His Apostle, He will not diminish aught of your deeds; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Pikthall
The wandering Arabs say We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad) Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Khalifa
The Arabs said, "We are Mu'mens (believers)." Say, "You have not believed; what you should say is, `We are Muslims (submitters),' until belief is established in your hearts." If you obey GOD and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

Free Minds
The Nomads said "We believe." Say "You have not believed; but you should Say 'We have surrendered', for belief has not yet entered into your hearts." If you obey God and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. God is Forgiver, Merciful.

peace,

Leyla

[unknownuser]

Thank you bro

I'm sorry bro you have missed what Kyle told me a while back, HE WAS THE ONE WHO ACCUSED ME OF BEING A HADITH FOLLOWER AND SAID HE DOES NOT DISCUSS MATTERS WITH SUCH ONES UNTIL THEY CHANGE THEIR VIEWS, ASK HIM PLEASE

I see brother but whether you believe hadith or not I still talk to you with respect and sincerity but I guess its upto the individual whether they discuss anything but personally hadith believers are very close minded therefore its impossible discussing anything with them. I'm not in anyway implying your a hadith follower as thats something you can answer yourself.

see brother, your accusation to me was suppose to be directed at brother kyle

now I accepted and respected his decision and I told him that in response to his comment, but he didn't respect his descisoin and kept arguing with my comments despite it was not directed to him.

So you accused me of not being open to understand others while it may look like it but the fact is different, I also believe that kyle himself does the same regarding my opinions, the point bro is this, I'm settled on almost 95% of what I believe and I'm only here to give my opinion, if i start to hear other opinions that are not of a slight concern to me and may cause flaw and does not make sense I have to do what i have to do which give my opinion to the public then bail out, I DON'T HAVE TIME TO ARGUE WITH OTHERS AND THAT CAN BE CONSIDERED RESPECTING THEIR OPINIONS . WE JUST LEAVE IT TO GOD, BUT SOMEHOW THEY KEEP CHASING ME FOR COMMENTS, AND WHEN I DECIDE TO COMMENT I WILL COMMENT AS WHO I'M AND ACCORDING TO WHAT I BUILT IN MY MIND STEADLY AND STRONGLY FOR THE LAST 25 YEARS

Peace to all

Personally to me you can never stop learning. Learning in whatever fields is always progressive. As you said and I completely agree I don't have time to argue but I do have time to DISCUSS.

I think everyone hear can all agree that opinions are opinions but only opinions that are sound in knowledge and reason and is supported by Quran should be regarded as religious law.

I would love to see as you suggested before a debate on let's say Jesus having no father or other topics you don't agree on with members like Kyle or mquran with judges so to make the debate fair and most importantly without any arguing or negative personal comments. Whether you change your opinion at the end or not is upto you but the readers of the topic can choose the best advice or understanding and follow it as the Quran suggests to do.

PEACE

Thank you bro

you always had my respect man and still do, you are a very good example to a very good Muslim

Peace bro

[unknownuser]

ok, here is a question for you,

what is your religion?

i want an answer from the Quran please

My deen is ad-deen inda Allah, which is Al-islaam (3/19). This means that I acknowledge and submit to al-kitaab.

Mquran, how you submit to a Kitab?

I'm sure you will tell me to follow all the ahkam in it, biut again who made that Book,?

see you will answer Allah

therefore you should submit to the autor of the book not to a book

and if you do submit sincerely to the author of the book, then you are automatically should be following the Ahkam in His book that you want to submit to

you don't need to submit to a book bro, you only need to believe in the Ahkam in this book

submission in faith is only to the Creator bro and that is what Islam means

[unknownuser]

Peace Ahmed

Peace Leyla

If 49/14 is the only evidence does not matter.

Sure I agree with that

Even if it is only one verse in the qur'?n it is enough as evidence.

Of course

I see your explanation of 49/14 as obviously incorrect because it totally breaks the internal consistence of the verse.

Well, here is the verse in arabic again

(14)

Noe if you can read Arabic then read the following

Explanation in Arabic

" "

See the belief is only A PART OF ISLAM, ? " ? IE, ISLAM COVERS THE IMAN, ISLAM IS THE MAIN SUBJECT AND IMAN IS A SECTION IN IT

Now I will listen to myself and Ibn Kathir and professional like him and surely will not listen to you or MQuran unless what you guys say make sense and so far in this subject it seems you know nothing about common sense

See, very clear that they thought they believed and Allah is advising them that the ultimate goal is to submit after YOU BELIVE, can you see this bit ? ?, which is the first stage of faith ?believe? then they submit by obeying ?Allah and His Prophet?

When your explanation is right the phrase `wa lamm? yadkhuli-l im?nu fi qul?bikum? does not make any sense at all!
Only when accepting that one can be muslim without im?n that phrase makes sense.

Sorry that is not the common sense, that is your sense and sure it is not common because a respected scholar like Ibn Kathir is far more knowledgable than me and you, however it happened that my understanding matched Ibn Kathir understanding.

Now answer this to me please

111- ?And they say None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say Bring your proof if you are truthful.?

112- ?Yes! whoever submits himself entirely to Allah and he is the doer of good he has his reward from his Lord, and there is no fear for him nor shall he grieve.?

(111)
(112)

-> The verses are clear, some people say shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian without any proof, and Allah is telling them in 2112

-> ? ? now under your wrong understanding this verse will be a joke, how come someone who is already peaceful is described as being ? ?, ?and he is the doer of good?, I thought he is already peaceful sister?, this is funny indeed sister, your arrogance is putting making the Quran a joke to the others with intellect, however not with me sister

-> Now if we translate it that someone who surrendered his face to Allah and is the doers of good, IT WILL MAKE ALL THE SENSE, because it is obvious that many call themselves Muslims and they don?t do any good, look around you please

How about this one

83- ?Is it then other than Allah's religion that they seek (to follow), and to Him submits whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they be returned.?

84- ?Say We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.?

85- ?And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.?

(83)
(84)
(85)

• See using your wrong translation, verse 83 will be another joke, how come creatures come peacefully and unwillingly to Allah ?

-> You may come to me and tell me the earth is coming peacefully and unwillingly to Allah, then I have to tell you, when the earth was asked that question by Allah, it answered like this

Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been smoke He said to it and to the earth "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said ?We do come in willing obedience."

(11)

-> The heaven and earth ?even without freewill? managed to understand what Islam mean and both submitted willingly, while you and your friend Mquran failed to understand what Islam means , yet you are going around promoting the wrong ideas with clear cut arrogance and ignorance and indirectly misleading whoever has no or lil knowledge and browse this forum, at least respond to the verses I post to gain some credit sister

2/3 does not contradict my point at all because, well, simply
Where is the term muslim in the verse???
Where isl?m??

Well, you failed to see what I mean, I meant ?To belief in the Ghayb? is a requirement to be a believer and sure to be a submitter you need to be a believer first

Make sense to you?, I guess not, as you said to be a Muslim you donl? need to be a Mumin

Now, please bring me a verse that clearly says that to be a muslim one has to have im?n.

4914

A verse using both the Arabic words muslim and im?n (or related Arabic words as isl?m and mu'min or aslama and amana) that definitely says so!
Not deducin it from assumptions, but from the direct wording please!

4914

"Ka Re Ha" which means "to Hate"

"Ikrah" means "Compulsion" "La Ikrah Fi Al Deen"

See, Ikrah and its root are somehow different meaning, do you agree?

Your again making the same mistake of equating English translations with internal meanings in Arabic.

Now that is funny, would you like to make our discussion in Arabic?, I have no problem with that but I thought we should respect the other readers and post in a common language, but if they have no problem, let?s do it, I want to see please how good in Arabic you are, I guess you may be interested to know the same about me? Yes/no?

Unfortunately, I have to be humble enough to say at this point that I simply haven?t studied the root of K-R-H yet.

Thanks for your honesty, but I did, see the word compulsion is to force someone to do or say something while they don?t want to do it, not they hate it, rather they may not feeling like it to do it

For example I do the vacuum in the house with passion, I like it somehow, however sometimes I?m busy doing my work and my wife is nagging over my head to do the bloody vacuum at some time, again if I had my freewill untouched I would have rebelled and said bloody not now, but the fact of the matter that I submitted to my wife (lol) I have to be forced to do it when she wants, that does not mean I hate vacuum because in most of the times I do it with passion

So we have a root ?K R H? which clearly means ?hate? and the word ?Ikrah? on the same wazn as ?Islam? means ?Forcing? or ?Compulsion? and is totally different to the root ?hate? and this is a perfect example in how the word ?Islam? which means ?Submission? is different to the root ?S L M?, which means ?greet?

But I can already see a deep relation here, however, it would only be an assumption if I would mention it. I is probably the same linguistic relation that the English words repulsion and compulsion have. However, a person with more and qualified knowledge in qur'?nic linguistics will however definitely tell you what the relation is and will tell you that there is one because it is just simply a linguistic trait of Arabic that all words with the same root have an internal relation!

Yeh, please do your researched and come back to me if you find anything compelling

The fact that English translations do not confirm this in every case does not disprove anything here because
Every translation from one language into another is always only an approximate translation. There is no word in a language that totally fits the whole meanings and contexts of the translated word in another language.
For someone who speaks more than two languages this is pretty obvious.
I am sure even you know yourself in your practice of switching Englis that sometimes an English translation does not fit in its fullness instead of an Arabic word.
This is because of different internal relations!

You started right then you twisted it to something non sensible which is ? This is because of different internal relations!?, while I told there is no such non sense called internal relation you insisting making it something that is known and sound valid, well I told you I never heard of such non sense, however I agree that translating Arabic is impossible to English not due to the non sensible cause you insist on promoting but not due to the unknown expression called internal relations, would that mean there are an external relation between the Arabic words?

Compulsion and hate may not have much relation in English but still ikrah and karaha in Arabic do, because compulsion and hate are always only approximates to ikrah and karaha.

yeh they share the same root, LOL, how about ?Makrooh?? it sounds the same isn?t it?, well I guess for an Arabic speaker like you all words coming derived from the same root mean the same?, let me ask you sister, do you know that there are 2 and 4 letters roots in addition to the 3 letters root?

I'm sorry sister, you are adding to the meaning here, Islam does not mean "establishment of peace with All?h`s laws"

Don?t twist my words here!
That?s silly again!
And an unhonest tactic!
From the context of my paragraph it was pretty clear that I was not translating isl?m' with that whole phrase at all and you knew that if you read the whole paragraph. So I am not adding to the meaning. I was only agreeing to you that isl?m? (establishment/attainment of peace) in the context of the qur'?n largely refers to isl?m to All?h alone.

What is that sister? I don?t think I ever said Islam = ? (establishment/attainment of peace) = This is 100% a mistake by you

The definition itself makes no sense, HOW A HUMAN ESTABLISH PEACE WITH A LAW? it sounds funny too sister

Of course it sounds funny because you can not always directly translate one language to another because translations are always only approximates.
On the contrary, however, the same phrase does not sound funny at all when translated into German (which I speak).

Ok so you are not a native Arabic speaker?, I have been in Germany btw, beautiful country but I was young, about 16 years old when I went there

Maybe it also does not sound funny in French or Spanish or Xhosa or Yoruba. Maybe it does. But that would not say anything.

I might ask my sister in Egypt she is a French language specialist

That it sounds funny in English is no evidence at all.

Don?t worry about it sister, laughter is always good for us

Look around you sister and identify the ones you consider submitters to the laws, do you really see them submitters to Allah?

Well, the few people that I personally know whom I consider submitters to the laws of All?h have always behaved towards me as submitters to the laws of All?h.
That?s all I can judge.

Ok but Islam is submitting to Allah, not to His laws, submitting to Him directly will lead to submitting to His laws automatically, make sense to you?

I'm sorry sister, there is no such thing called internal meaning in Arabic.

Also sister if Every qualified linguist is a native Arabic speaker then I bet all my money that they will all agree that Islam does not mean peace rather submitting to Allah

I repeat myself
I never claimed that isl?m means peace or is equal to sal?m.
Never, never, never.
Stop twisting my words again.
And every native Arabic speaking qualified linguist will tell you that there are internal relations between Arabic words with the same root.
Google one and ask him!

How about you get one in here that says this non sense, and I will actually add a lot about the Arabic language in here and we will see for ourselves if that internal relation was ever mentioned and if it is, we will see if it is related to the meanings or not

See sister you have to keep stretching it trying to convince yourself and others, but not me I'm sorry,

This starts to become boring for me ..... again google a native speaking arabic linguist and ask him.

Bye,

Leyla

Sure it is very boring I tell you, but you started it and I will not finish it, I guess who ever started it should be the one to finish it

Bye

[unknownuser]

Ahmed HOW A HUMAN ESTABLISH PEACE WITH A LAW?

Lets say there are riots going on. Suddenly there's a law saying whoever riots, he'll be executed. Then there's peace because no one wants his head chopped off.

Strange that's difficult for you to get.

what a silly example that is Mquran, you confirmed that you can't back upi your silly claim

I guess what the terrorists is doing by chopping heads off is right to you then?,