how could prophet lot give his daughters
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11.78
And his people came to him, (as if) rushed on towards him, and already they did evil deeds. He said O my people! these are my daughters-- they are purer for you, so guard against (the punishment of) Allah and do not disgrace me with regard to my guests; is there not among you one right-minded man? -
11.78
And his people came to him, (as if) rushed on towards him, and already they did evil deeds. He said O my people! these are my daughters-- they are purer for you, so guard against (the punishment of) Allah and do not disgrace me with regard to my guests; is there not among you one right-minded man?Peace samina
there is two possibilties to this
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Lut meant to offer them as wives
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He was not offering his biological daughters rather the non married women in his village, this is a common fact to refer to other women as daughters by an old an wise man within the Arabic culture
I lean to believe the first as it is the closest to the literal meaning of the verse
peace be with you
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peace samina/Ahmed,
Ahmed wrote
there is two possibilties to this
-
Lut meant to offer them as wives
-
He was not offering his biological daughters rather the non married women in his village, this is a common fact to refer to other women as daughters by an old an wise man within the Arabic culture
I lean to believe the first as it is the closest to the literal meaning of the verse
brother Ahmed please explain what sis samina has asked in the light of these verses?
4213-The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah--the which We have sent by inspiration to thee--and that which We enjoined on Abraham Moses and Jesus Namely that ye should remain steadfast in Religion and make no divisions therein to those who worship other things than Allah hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).
243-Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry any but a woman similarly guilty or an Unbeliever nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
24 26?Women impure are for men impure and men impure are for women impure; and women of purity are for men of purity and men of purity are for women of purity these are not affected by what people say for them there is forgiveness and a provision honorable.
were the daughters of Noah unchaste?
peace.
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Peace mate
please give me sometime and I will come back to this thread later
sorry bro
peace be with you
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As Salaam Alaikum,
Obviously he meant as in marraige. Are you saying he was forcing them to marry? No. I look at the verse as only an expression.
Along with that the city was a place full of homosexuals. like homosexual haven. There may had been young men there who hadn't as of yet had sex yet with any other man.
salaam
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peace noprogressive,
you wroteThere may had been young men there who hadn't as of yet had sex yet with any other man.
11.78
And his people came to him, (as if) rushed on towards him, and already they did evil deeds. He said O my people! these are my daughters-- they are purer for you, so guard against (the punishment of) Allah and do not disgrace me with regard to my guests; is there not among you one right-minded man?you may be right about some who hadnt had sex with another man, but the offer is to those who came to lot and the verse says that they already did evil deed.
np
Obviously he meant as in marraige.
agreed
np
Are you saying he was forcing them to marry?
no i am just wondering how he can offer them for marriage to unchast people because 243 says " Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry any but a woman similarly guilty".
np
No. I look at the verse as only an expression.
please explain?
peace.
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as salaam alaikum agentxxx,
What evil deeds exactly though Agentxxx? Lust is not just fornication. There is kissing, holding hands, flirting, etc, etc. They practiced thier lust on the same sex, yes... but that doesn't mean they are having sex
Also, from what I understand not everything was forbidden all of the time. Meaning, back then it may had been acceptable to marry a fornicator even if you were a virgin, but now--- with the Quranic revelation, it no longer is. Again that's just what I have understood, so I may be wrong.
I look at the offer of his daughters figuratevily. Saying "No, don't mess with men. You practice such acts with women". I don't take the verse as literal asyou may be taking it.
salaam
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peace np,
npWhat evil deeds exactly though Agentxxx? Lust is not just fornication. There is kissing, holding hands, flirting, etc, etc. They practiced thier lust on the same sex, yes... but that doesn't mean they are having sex
- And his people came rushing towards him, and since aforetime they used to COMMIT CRIMES (SODOMY, ETC.), he said "O my people! Here are my daughters (i.e. the daughters of my nation), they are purer for you (if you marry them lawfully). So fear All?h and degrade me not as regards my guests! Is there not among you a single right-minded man?"
npI look at the offer of his daughters figuratevily. Saying "No, don't mess with men. You practice such acts with women". I don't take the verse as literal asyou may be taking it.
you may be right np.
peace.
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Bro Agent
sorry for being late, I have been busy with some stuff bro, I haven't fogotten you "Ever bro" and I'm following the progress in here I only want to show you a verse ion the Quran to prove a point
however what sister NP said in her second paragraph that you may be agreeing with, is a perfect logic and makes great sense to me, our thanks to her, she is a very open minded Muslim and this is how the Quran verses should be taken exactly as what we do in our life, it is amazing bro
it is important to imagine living the incident for real and see what you may do at that time of horney homsosexuals rushing to your house trying to break the door to enter and possibly rape your male guests
I will show you the verse later bro
peace to all
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peace ahmed,
sorry for being late, I have been busy with some stuff bro, I haven't fogotten you "Ever bro" and I'm following the progress in here I only want to show you a verse ion the Quran to prove a point
however what sister NP said in her second paragraph that you may be agreeing with, is a perfect logic and makes great sense to me, our thanks to her, she is a very open minded Muslim and this is how the Quran verses should be taken exactly as what we do in our life, it is amazing bro
it is important to imagine living the incident for real and see what you may do at that time of horney homsosexuals rushing to your house trying to break the door to enter and possibly rape your male guests
I will show you the verse later bro
thank you brother )
God bless you all. -
peace samina/Ahmed,
Ahmed wrote
there is two possibilties to this
-
Lut meant to offer them as wives
-
He was not offering his biological daughters rather the non married women in his village, this is a common fact to refer to other women as daughters by an old an wise man within the Arabic culture
I lean to believe the first as it is the closest to the literal meaning of the verse
brother Ahmed please explain what sis samina has asked in the light of these verses?
4213-The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah--the which We have sent by inspiration to thee--and that which We enjoined on Abraham Moses and Jesus Namely that ye should remain steadfast in Religion and make no divisions therein to those who worship other things than Allah hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).
243-Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry any but a woman similarly guilty or an Unbeliever nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
24 26?Women impure are for men impure and men impure are for women impure; and women of purity are for men of purity and men of purity are for women of purity these are not affected by what people say for them there is forgiveness and a provision honorable.
were the daughters of Noah unchaste?
peace.
Peace bro agentxxx
Firstly 243 is translated wrong, there is no ?Let? in the Arabic text, the verses is simple a statement by Allah that when a serial zani marries, most likely he will marry a zania, same with a zania, it is like a general rule but sure it will have some rare exceptions, like any other geral rule Allah created
Same case with verse 2426, a statement by Allah for the general rule
The above verses anyway has no link to the Lut story, as Lut story was real incidents not a general statement
What we need to look at in the story of prophet Lut is the sequence of events prior to the incident at his house, let?s first look at the incident again
78- And his people came to him, (as if) rushed on towards him, and already they did evil deeds. He said O my people! these are my daughters-- they are purer for you, so guard against (the punishment of) Allah and do not disgrace me with regard to my guests; is there not among you one right-minded man?
79- They said Certainly you know that we have no right to your daughters, and most surely you know what we desire.
80- He said Ah! that I had power to suppress you, rather I shall have recourse to a strong support.
(7
(79)
(80)-> The scene is clear as we read verse 1178, the Angels were sent in the shape of beautiful men to punish the people of Gomorrah and Sodom (Lut People), from my researches it seems that Lut?s wife informed the village sick homosexuals that her husband (Lut) is having beautiful male guests at his home, they came rushing for sure ? And his people came to him, (as if) rushed on towards him, and already they did evil deeds.?, I imagined the scene as them knocking on the door while Lut didn?t open the door, Lut was worried about his guests so he spoke to his people from behind the door trying to stop them from doing this evil act, Lut told them from behind the door ? He said O my people! these are my daughters-- they are purer for you,?, the verse didn?t specifically said that that Lut offer to his people was an offer of marrying his daughter, however anyone with working brain and non biased heart should guess what a righteous prophet like Lut was offering?, it has to be legal marriage, especially in the old days, marriage was done verbally, unlike now days, we can read a key word in Lut?s offer that irrefutably confirm, his offer was CLEAN and righteous, the key word is ? ?, i.e. ? they are purer for you?, this must confirm that it was an offer of marriage because it was ?Purer for them?, we also have another key word ? ?, i.e. ? so guard against (the punishment of) Allah?, this makes it clear that the offer was legal because you can guard yourself against Allah punishment by committing a sin to avoid another sin, it makes no sense, we can also sense how worried Lut was worried about his guests ? and do not disgrace me with regard to my guests; is there not among you one right-minded man??, he was trying hard with those sick homosexuals, he actually realized the problem he will face the moment he saw his guests even before his people rushed to his house as was read in another verse.
-> In verse 1179 we have very important clue that can be easily overlooked by many, they responded to him from behind the door, as follow ? ?, i.e. ? They said Certainly you know that we have no HAQQ to your daughters,?, obviously we can understand that Lut warned then many times before of the evil act they were doing by telling them that the Haqq is to marry women, this is obvious from the word Haqq, as we know that pimping and prostitution are not Haqq but very bad deeds, they never listened, they even told him ? and most surely you know what we desire?, it is funny from them not to describe what they desire as Haqq as they described Lut?s offering his daughters to them.
-> In verse 1180, is where I believe that things started to heat up, they could not wait no more (what a sick homosexuals they were), I believe they tried to break the door, this is when Lut hoped he has power to suppress them,? He said Ah! that I had power to suppress you, rather I shall have recourse to a strong support.?
The above is the incident that cause disturbance to sister Samina, while I see nothing disturbing other than sick homosexuals rushing to prophet Lut house after they knew he had beautiful male guests in the house, I agree the verses never explicitly stated the offer was legal marriage, but from the following verses we can read that prior to this incident, Lut many times told them that Allah created women for men to be legal wives ?pure? as Lut decribed his offer in 1178, which is also Haqq as the homosexulas descibed it themselves in 1179
161- Behold, their brother Lut said to them Will ye not fear (Allah)?
162- Surely I am a faithful messenger to you;
163- So fear Allah and obey me.
164- And I do not ask you any reward for it; my reward is only with the Lord of the worlds;
165- What! do you come to the males from among the creatures
166- And leave what your Lord has created for you as your wives? Nay, you are a people exceeding limits.
167- They said If you desist not, O Lut! you shall surely be of those who are expelled.(161)
(162)
(163)
(164)
(165)
(166)
(167)-> The verses clearly tell us about the struggle Lut had with his sick people, the important note is verse 26166, we read clearly that Lut told them ? ?, i.e. ?And leave what your Lord has created for you as your wives??, indeed they were ? Nay, you are a people exceeding limits?
-> We read in 26167 their ignorant and arrogant reply to the string argument of leaving what Allah has created for them of their wives ?They said If you desist not, O Lut! you shall surely be of those who are expelled.?, they threatened to expel him of the village, what a bunch of sick bastards they were man
I could not find anything disturbing in the story of prophet Lut as understood from the Quran, in fact I see it sensible, accurate and practical, it cann even happen now days
What puzzles me is why the story as stated in the Bible is not disturbing to many, the Bible told us, after Allah destroyed the villages and while Lut and his two daughters were seeking refuge in a cave or something, the two daughters planned to make their father drunk then one of them had intercourse with him to have his children and on the following night the same happen again, they made him drunk but this time it was the other daughter turn to have sexual intercourse with her biological father and carry his children, NOW THIS IS DISTURBING, SICK AND DISGUSTING
Peace be with all
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Salam,
Thank you brother Ahmed for your insight into prophet Lut offering his daughters. I agree that the intent most likely was for marriage. As I have seen no formal ceremony either in the Quran, Torah, Injeel, or Psalms for marriage (would be interesting in reading any verses one has to offer on the subject) So therefore it is my current understanding that Prophet Lut meant to offer his daughters in marriage through the act of intercourse.
26166 was very helpful to point out in this thread.The subject of Prophet Lut in the Torah is very easily misunderstood. I would like to share what I understand and maybe you can share your thoughts as well....
These quotes are from the Torah Bereishit (Genesis) 1930 through Bereishit 19381930 Vaya'al Lot miTzo'ar vayeshev bahar ushtei venotav imo ki yare lashevet beTzo'ar vayeshev bame'arah hu ushtei venotav.
Lot went up from Tzoar and lived in the mountain; and his two daughters went with him, for he was afraid to live in Tzoar. He lived in a cave, he and his two daughters.1931 Vatomer habechirah el-hatze'irah avinu zaken ve'ish ein ba'aretz lavo aleynu kederech kol-ha'aretz.
The older girl said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man on earth who will come into us in the normal manner.
It would appear that the daughters were afraid that they would not be able procreate without utilizing their father. It seems to me that this was a desperate situation.1932 Lecha nashkeh et-avinu yayin venishkevah imo unechayeh me'avinu zara.
Come let us urge our father to drink wine, and sleep with him; that we may give life to seed from our father."
With no other options and no other men around in order to reproduce I think they turned to their father in fear and uncertainty in order to propagate.1933 Vatashkeynah et-avihen yayin balailah hu vatavo habechirah vatishkav et-aviha velo-yada beshichvah uvekumah.They urged wine upon their father that night; and the older girl went in and slept with her father. He was not aware when she lay down or got up.
One could even say that it was without his permission.1934 Vayehi mimachorat vatomer habechirah el-hatze'irah hen-shachavti emesh et-avi nashkenu yayin gam-halailah uvoy shichvi imo unechayeh me'avinu zara.
The next day, the older girl said to the younger, "Last night I slept with my father. Let us urge wine upon him tonight also, and you go in an sleep with him that we may give life to seed from our father."
It appears that it was to ensure that the lineage continued....the act of securing life and reproduction in an extreme situation I can understand.1935 Vatashkeynah gam balailah hahu et-avihen yayin vatakom hatze'irah vatishkav imo velo-yada beshichvah uvekumah.
That night also, they urged their father wine. The younger went up and slept with him, and he was not aware when she lay down or got up.
We know from the Quran and the Torah that men are not supposed to sleep with their daughters. That is pretty clear. I think its important to direct attention to "and he was not aware" this is stated everytime it is said that one of his daughters slept with him. The verses that tell us who we are forbidden to have intercourse with are directed to the men (to the best of my recollection) so in actuality since Prophet Lut was not aware of it, one could offer that he wasn't transgressing. One could furthermore say that his daughters were not transgressing either because the verses explaining who it is forbidden to have sexual relations with are directed towards the men and not the women. Although common sense might dictate that it is meant for both men and women.
1936 Vatahareynah shtei venot-Lot me-avihen.
Lot's two daughters became pregnant from their father.1937 Vateled habechirah ben vatikra shmo Mo'av hu avi-Mo'av ad-hayom.
The older girl gave birth to a son and she named him Moav. He is the ancestor of the Moav nation even to this day.1938 Vehatze'irah gam-hi yaldah ben vatikra shmo Ben-'ammi hu avi venei-Ammon ad-hayom.
The younger girl also gave birth to a son, and she named him Ben-Ami. He is the ancestor of the people of Ammon even to this day.I welcome discussion and different points of view on this subject.
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Peace Bro arnaab
I really believe that the bit about the daughters sleeping with their father is a man made lie, this is obvious bro from the daughters statement that THERE IS NO MAN LEFT ON EARTH, as we know that Ibrahim and his people exsited at the time and the punishment didn't reach their village, in fact as far as I believe Ibrahim and Lut were cousins
Also for a prophet to be accept drinking alcohol from his daughters is something that can not be believed
Peace mate
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Salaam Ahmed,
Bereishit 1931 Vatomer habechirah el-hatze'irah avinu zaken ve'ish ein ba'aretz lavo aleynu kederech kol-ha'aretz.
The older girl said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man on earth who will come into us in the normal manner.
Good point. Let me respond by saying that maybe since they were on the mountain and still under their fathers charge (perhaps their father would not allow them to leave the mountain) then in fact it would be true that "there is no man on earth who will come into us in the normal manner." since they were seperated from men and no man could reach them.
also what transpired between Prophet Lut and his daughters may have been of some importance as the verses that follow identify who the sons grew up to be which may or may not indicate that it may have been necessary and may have been meaningful....1937 Vateled habechirah ben vatikra shmo Mo'av hu avi-Mo'av ad-hayom.
The older girl gave birth to a son and she named him Moav. He is the ancestor of the Moav nation even to this day.1938 Vehatze'irah gam-hi yaldah ben vatikra shmo Ben-'ammi hu avi venei-Ammon ad-hayom.
The younger girl also gave birth to a son, and she named him Ben-Ami. He is the ancestor of the people of Ammon even to this day. -
Peace bro
I don't know man, I will just take it as no prophet would have done this evil act as well I would never accept that Allah planned this to happen after He destroyed their villages, there is nothing that suggest that in the Quran,
In Noah story however we read that Allah ordered Noah to put in the ark a pair each of many creatures, ie, Allah knew that His punishment is going to be and on a massive scale when He punished Noah People
peace bro
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As SAlaam Aliakum AngetXXX,
peace np,
- And his people came rushing towards him, and since aforetime they used to COMMIT CRIMES (SODOMY, ETC.), he said "O my people! Here are my daughters (i.e. the daughters of my nation), they are purer for you (if you marry them lawfully). So fear All?h and degrade me not as regards my guests! Is there not among you a single right-minded man?"
peace.
The stuff in parentheiss are just man-made interperations... not saying that they are wrong interpertations, but like the interpertation says "etc".
salaam
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Peace
Just a note
243-Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry any but a woman similarly guilty or an Unbeliever nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
This is a poor translation
There is no injunction here.
243 The adulterer/fornicator does not marry except an the adulteress/fornicatress or a sharer/taker of partners (with God), and the adulteress/fornicatress , none marries her except an adulterer/fornicator or sharer/taker of partners (with God), and that (was) sanctioned upon the trusters/convinced.
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peace noprogressive,
you wroteno i am just wondering how he can offer them for marriage to unchast people because 243 says " Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry any but a woman similarly guilty".
np
No. I look at the verse as only an expression.
please explain?
peace.
The meaning is that Prophet Lot was appealing to those men who indulged in same sex relationships to reform themselves and get married to decent women instead. Any man who genuinely repents, reforms and changes himself should not be considered unchaste anymore.
And Allah knows best.