Please see this post on Rituals in Quran for discussion

phoenix1

peace

Ritual
rit?u?al
n.

The prescribed order of a religious ceremony.
The body of ceremonies or rites used in a place of worship.
The prescribed form of conducting a formal secular ceremony the ritual of an inauguration.
The body of ceremonies used by a fraternal organization.
A book of rites or ceremonial forms.
rituals
A ceremonial act or a series of such acts.
The performance of such acts.

I'm not sure if the author of the article, or you, are using that definition of ritual. But if you are, then what i disagree with is the idea that rituals are an important part of islam. Islam is a system that anyone can follow from anywhere around that world. And although rituals that create "bonds" between people can work in a small neighborhood,or a sports team, I don't think it will have any effect if millions of people from all different kinds of cultures. And going by the above definition, rituals have to be performed a certain way. Because obviously, if a person is doing a ritual that has a purpose wrong, then it would be useless. And that will always give rise to "leaders" that are experts in those rituals.

phoenix1

peace

Ritual
rit?u?al
n.

The prescribed order of a religious ceremony.
The body of ceremonies or rites used in a place of worship.
The prescribed form of conducting a formal secular ceremony the ritual of an inauguration.
The body of ceremonies used by a fraternal organization.
A book of rites or ceremonial forms.
rituals
A ceremonial act or a series of such acts.
The performance of such acts.

I'm not sure if the author of the article, or you, are using that definition of ritual. But if you are, then what i disagree with is the idea that rituals are an important part of islam. Islam is a system that anyone can follow from anywhere around that world. And although rituals that create "bonds" between people can work in a small neighborhood,or a sports team, I don't think it will have any effect if millions of people from all different kinds of cultures. And going by the above definition, rituals have to be performed a certain way. Because obviously, if a person is doing a ritual that has a purpose wrong, then it would be useless. And that will always give rise to "leaders" that are experts in those rituals.
Hope you get an idea of where i'm getting at.
If you look at salat, hajj, as rituals, there will always be the question "how do we perform it?" and that's when people turn to tradition for guidance instead of the quran.

Pisces69

Phonix1
You raised several good questions. Let me rephrase them

Your first is about diversity. What happens if millions of people from different cultures try to perform the same ritual, which in our discussion is salat?

Your second question is about religious specialist and their role in Salat?

Answer
Islam accepts diversity as part of human reality.
http//www.clearvision.com.pk/diversity.php
Islam is a community based system (deen). Concept of community is central to Islam and It is the basic character of Islam. Salat, as argued in the article, is a way to bring the members of community together. When people stop following the spirit and values of this system only the facade is left and spirit is lost. But when a group of people rise up to revive the spirit they bring the sense of community and values back into the system.

Refer to Quran 1317 There is a parable about truth and falsehood. In this
parable God is saying that if you remove the falsehood from the system it becomes pure and good for humanity. So what I am saying is that old traditions of Salat is still being followed but the sense of community and spirit is dead. If you revive it you will see that the existing practice of salat is a ritual which serves to enhance the social bonds of community.

About the religious specialist, there is no role for such a person. The leader of muslim community should lead the salat.

Regards

phoenix1

peace

Thanks for the answer. I agree that there should be oneness among people. Not just "muslims" but all of mankind. But i still don't think rituals are necessary in doing that. I think that if people can just accept people for who they are, and gain knowledge and understanding about eachother, that will create unity.

Pisces69

Phoenix1
I humbly suggest you study cultural anthropology on rituals and human reality. I will come back to you with some books on this subject.

I am sure you will see the point that no sociey is without rituals, whether secular or related to supernatural, and we must not be an exception. If we ignore rituals we dehumanize ourselves by rejecting a fundamental human reality.

Regards

Pisces69

I am not an anthropologist, but studying Quran made me immensely interested in this subject. Quran denies nothing about actual human nature and experiences. Quran exhorts us again and again to study human nature and look at the cultures of people of yesterday and today. The people who have knowledge of such subjects are referred to in Quran as the 'people who have knowledge'. Quran often exhorts its readers to go and ask the people who know.

Anthropologist regards religion as cultural universal - general cultural traits and features found in all societies of the world. The argument of Quran is for Tawheed. To me it is unification of God, Identity, values and purpose of life. I will post a new essay on tawheed shortly, Inshallah.

Please refer to these sources on cultural anthropology, religion and rituals

http//highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0072500506/student_view0/chapter12/faqs.html

http//www.routledge-ny.com/religionandsociety/Rites/introduction.html

http//inic.utexas.edu/asnic/subject/essayonreli.html

If you discuss it more I will be happy to be of any help. If you want to take it offline drop me an instant message.

phoenix1

peace

thanks. i'll look into it.

phoenix1

peace

Actually, i still have a few doubts about rituals. I don't think they are a human reality. Just because a majority of people do it, doesn't mean all of them do. Humans have a tendency to follow rituals and traditions, but they also have the tendency to steal, lie, and cheat. Lying, cheating, stealing are a part of human nature. An even bigger part than rituals, i believe. So then why are they looked down upon?
Islam is not a religion. It doesn't urge people to follow others so that they feel mentally secure. It doesn't offer explanations to phenomena that people don't understand. Instead, it gives us a chance to be independent, and to find out the real truth.
I'm not an anthropologist either, and i will look into this matter further intil i have a good explanation.

And i won't take this discussion offline because i think others can learn from our discussion to. AND Maybe they can add some of their own input. Why do most threads turn into one-on-one conversations?

Pisces69

Just a post to highlight the difference between the TRIANGLE of terms DEEN, MAZHAB and RELIGION

Deen - It translates to a system based on principles and rules. When we sayIslam is a deen it means it is a system. Refer to
http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/Ad_Deen.pdf

Mazhab - It translates to 'school of thought'. The word mazhab is never used in Quran. I think the reason is simple because Quran doesnot reflect the 'schoolof thought' of any scholar(s) but the system of God.

Religion - It is a word from western culture and it is a set of rituals,
attitudes and beliefs related to supernatural.
Refer http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

Therefore Islam is not a Mazhab. It is much more than that. But there is no translation of deen in english. The closest is religion so many translators and scholars have used religion and for the sake of simplicity we also use it.

But in my opinion Islam is a system based on principles given by Allah for the muslim community to regulate their affairs. It includes rituals, values (moralprinciples), jurisprudence, beliefs and many other things. If there is no muslim community obviously there would be no Islam.

phoenix1

peace

How would you define a "muslim community?"

Pisces69

Very good question. ( -) my favorite topic)

Lets dissect the term "Muslim Community".

Muslim AND Community

First study Muslim
Being Muslim is not following a particular culture or speaking a particular language.
Being Muslim is not following a particular trait.
Being Muslim is not living in the east or west.
It is universal. It is a way of thinking a person develops by observing the nature and its majesty.
For definition of Muslim we need to study the ideology of the person who coined this term i.e. our spritual father Prophet Abraham (PBUH) the true Mulim Hanifa. Whom God called as his friend (Khalil). All the subsequent Messengers followed in his footsteps. Any body who follows his way is a Muslim. This way is called Millat-e-Ibaram in Quran.
http//www.clearvision.com.pk/perspectives.php?func=show&id=8
http//www.clearvision.com.pk/perspectives.php?func=show&id=30

Community
Cooperation is basic to human nature and organization is basic to cooperation.
Homo Sapiens are social animals. They cooperate for their common good.
http//www.clearvision.com.pk/community.php

So islam is a cooperation based system. In other words it is a community based system. Whoever follows Islam by default becomes part of a community.

So to sum up Muslim Community is the cooperation between people who are Muslim and Quran provides the constitution for regulating the affairs of this community.
http//www.clearvision.com.pk/perspectives.php?func=show&id=40

Points to Ponder
Birds of a feather flock together means that people who are similar to each other often stick together.

Now think like a leader. You need to keep your flock together. What is better than Salat?

Thanks

phoenix1

peace

But is salat really a ritual?
does it have to be performed a certain way?
Salat would only be a "ritual" if there was a set of laws that everyone had to follow during salat. There isn't an explanation on how one must establish salat.
So although a comminuty needs to be united, i don't think we need "rituals."