Where Was Mohammed?
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how is 'Muhammad ibn abdullah' different from the Muhammad in the ayat ? i dont understand this .
He was a historical figure and nothing he did beyond al-quraan has any lasting benefit for humanity. We could learn somethings from his history perhaps but only as stimulus.
and 'Muhammad in the ayat' could also die and get killed . how does that make the ayat untrue .
Muhammad, as the ayat says, IS the messenger of Allah (48/29). Rasulullah has a certain role which he cannot perform when he is dead.
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salam.
how is 'Muhammad ibn abdullah' different from the Muhammad in the ayat ? i dont understand this .
He was a historical figure and nothing he did beyond al-quraan has any lasting benefit for humanity. We could learn somethings from his history perhaps but only as stimulus.
agreed.
and 'Muhammad in the ayat' could also die and get killed . how does that make the ayat untrue .
Muhammad, as the ayat says, IS the messenger of Allah (48/29). Rasulullah has a certain role which he cannot perform when he is dead.
Muhammad was a messenger because of his message . Muhammad IS still the Messenger of Allah because his message and his speech is with us . Muhammad the messenger still speaks to us . the messenger is with us , in my opinion .
but Muhammad could also die and get killed (3144) , and when Muhammad, the man is dead, we are not supposed not to turn back on our heels . the ayat will not become untrue .
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Muhammad was a messenger because of his message . Muhammad IS still the Messenger of Allah because his message and his speech is with us . Muhammad the messenger still speaks to us . the messenger is with us , in my opinion .
Except for the messenger in my soul (3/164), Muhammad doesn't yet exist in my life. I hope sometime in the future, I will meet a Muhammad.
but Muhammad could also die and get killed (3144) , and when Muhammad, the man is dead, we are not supposed not to turn back on our heels . the ayat will not become untrue .
If we met a Muhammad and he died, there will be other Muhammadan personalities to replace him. When he dies and is no longer in our afaaq/horizon, he is no longer the Quranic Muhammad.
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salam.
Muhammad was a messenger because of his message . Muhammad IS still the Messenger of Allah because his message and his speech is with us . Muhammad the messenger still speaks to us . the messenger is with us , in my opinion .
Except for the messenger in my soul (3/164), Muhammad doesn't yet exist in my life. I hope sometime in the future, I will meet a Muhammad.
why do u need to meet a Muhammad ? i mean what will u do ? u already have the speech of the rasool with you . that is what matters .
but Muhammad could also die and get killed (3144) , and when Muhammad, the man is dead, we are not supposed not to turn back on our heels . the ayat will not become untrue .
If we met a Muhammad and he died, there will be other Muhammadan personalities to replace him....
the verse says that Muhammad could die,get killed but doesnt mention replacing him .
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why do u need to meet a Muhammad ? i mean what will u do ? u already have the speech of the rasool with you . that is what matters .
If I met a Muhammadur Rasulullah, I would follow him. Of course we have the speech of ar-rasool but al-islaam functions beyond the verbal dimension. If you read 48/28, 61/9 and 9/33, you will find that al-islaam is meant to be prevalent over other deens but its not.
the verse says that Muhammad could die,get killed but doesnt mention replacing him .
The ayat of Allah do not end in a linnear fashion. We experience them repeatedly in our lives.
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Peace brother Layth,
I have managed to use some spare time this past week to rewrite and update the article 'Where Was Mohammed'.
http//free-minds.org/articles/history/moh.htm
Thanks to Ayman for providing the needed ctalyst with his last article.
It is always my pleasure to be a catalyst. You were the original catalyst for me rejecting Mecca as a place of any significance.
I think that a major benefit of such articles are the discussions that they spur. I already explained in the article why Jerusalem cannot be the place where the great reading was originally revealed. At this stage, I had just one comment about the reasons that you gave for excluding a place like Hegra (Median Saleh). I quote
Medien Saleh has 'tombs' carved out of the rock, whereas Scripture tells us they carved 'homes' (774);
Medien Saleh is situated in a 'flat-land' with 'rock-peaks' around it. The Scripture tells us to look for a 'Valley' (8910);
Medien Saleh has no water water source to host crops and gardens, while Petra has an advanced water system used for irrigation (26147-149).By the way, as I am sure you know but for the benefit of others, Hegra's alternate name being Median Saleh doesn't necessarily mean that it has anything to do with Median or Saleh. It could be simply a name later assigned to it.
As for your first point, the people in 774 lived long before those tombs were made. As the culture and people's preferences changed, later generations could have converted the houses into tombs.
As for your second and third point, it seems that you visited the tourist areas (the elaborately carved tombs) but not the town. Now keeping in mind that tombs are usually located outside the main town and ancient people (being supersticious) rarely lived near tombs, you should look for water and a valley outside the tourist area (the area of the tombs). The following picture looking away from the tombs' area and showing water and vegetation speaks for itself
http//nabataea.net/MDShigh%20place.jpg
Now I am not saying that Hegra is the place where the great reading was originally revealed. However, I am saying that your reasons for excluding it are not very convincing.
Also, why do you exclude places such as Domat, Tabuk, Hira, etc. without explanation? Here is another interesting quote from your article
In fulfillment of God?s promise, and in confirming the truth of the prophecy, the Muslim army once again set out to battle mighty Rome. This event fits the description of the historic 'Battle of Tabuk' that has been reported as the Prophet Mohammed's final military campaign before his death.
From the scripture, we don't hear of any other battle after the one in chapters 48 and 110. So if you say that the battle of Tabuk was the last one then Tabuk is the place.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
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Perhaps I missed something here because I did skim parts of the article, but Aramaic was spoken in the Jerusalem area, not Arabic. If the Quran was talking to people in that area as "seeing the ruins of Lot night and day", then why would it be in Arabic.
Also, why would Muhamma have been prevented from entering the temple by the Romans?
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Simply put, "ibn abdullah" is not part of "Muhammad in the ayat".
Anwar Azim
dead and buried ?
Muhammad ibn Abdullah is dead and buried but what of Muhammad in the ayaat? If he is dead, then the ayat would not be true anymore.
salam.
how is 'Muhammad ibn abdullah' different from the Muhammad in the ayat ? i dont understand this .
and 'Muhammad in the ayat' could also die and get killed . how does that make the ayat untrue . -
Anwarul Simply put, "ibn abdullah" is not part of "Muhammad in the ayat".
I woudln't even say that. Ibn Abdullah must have experienced the ayaat concerning Muhammad but he has now left the stage, as it were. Now, we must have a living person living a living ayat.
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Peace "mquran".
How do you know this "Ibn Abdullah must have experienced the ayaat concerning Muhammad"? From hadithist history/Sirah?
Anwar Azim
PS It is "Anwar" not "Anwarul".Anwarul Simply put, "ibn abdullah" is not part of "Muhammad in the ayat".
I woudln't even say that. Ibn Abdullah must have experienced the ayaat concerning Muhammad but he has now left the stage, as it were. Now, we must have a living person living a living ayat.
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Mehdi this statement appears to come from a point of view which in it's opposition of traditionalism...
Appearances can be decieving.
has gone to the same extent in being extreme
Define please what 'extreme' is and what al-quraan says about it.
learning the life of even one's own grand parents, a certain teacher, or etc.. can have lasting benefits for any individual... to say "nothing he did beyond al-quraan" is a bit of a extremist point of view it seems....
'nothing he did beyond al-quraan' isnt even a coherent sentence. Do quote in context nothing he did beyond al-quraan has any lasting benefit for humanity
And I stand by this statement. What is 'lasting benefit to humanity' is al-haqq (see 13/17). Al-haqq comes from al-haqq Himself, Allah. Ibn Abdullah was a human being and anything he did beyond al-haqq cannot be al-haqq.
also please post what in your opionon is the 'certain role' of Rasulullah ...
An example would be 33/21, to be an 'uswatun hasanah'.
Anwar How do you know this "Ibn Abdullah must have experienced the ayaat concerning Muhammad"? From hadithist history/Sirah?
If you match Ibn Abdullah to the role of the reciever of al-quraan, then the ayat must match the role.
PS It is "Anwar" not "Anwarul".
My apologies. Are you the same Anwar from Rope list, years ago?
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Peace "mquran",
Anwar How do you know this "Ibn Abdullah must have experienced the ayaat concerning Muhammad"? From hadithist history/Sirah?
If you match Ibn Abdullah to the role of the reciever of al-quraan, then the ayat must match the role.
Could you give an example? The narrations about Ibn Abdullah are very confusing. If you do give an example, according to whom?
PS It is "Anwar" not "Anwarul".
My apologies. Are you the same Anwar from Rope list, years ago?
No need for apologies. ) Yes, I was in Rope list but I don't know if I was the only one "Anwar". Anyway, I changed my name couple of years ago. Now as you can see, it is very short.
Anwar Azim
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I guess the statemnet by Mquran, to have a live person living the Quran representing the Rasool is not much different from the Sunni who take the dead Rasool as an Idol,
Peace
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I guess the statemnet by Mquran, to have a live person living the Quran representing the Rasool is not much different from the Sunni who take the dead Rasool as an Idol,
You guessed wrong. Ar-rasool when he actualises in the world
- commands by al-quraan (69/40)
- judges by al-quraan (5/4
So unless you're saying that the sahaba of Muhammad ibn Abdullah were musyrikeen themselves (because they had a 'live' messenger too), its false to connect having a living ar-rasool with taking ar-rasool as an idol. There's no need to idolise any rasool. We're simply to obey, follow and emulate him.
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I guess the statemnet by Mquran, to have a live person living the Quran representing the Rasool is not much different from the Sunni who take the dead Rasool as an Idol,
You guessed wrong. Ar-rasool when he actualises in the world
- commands by al-quraan (69/40)
- judges by al-quraan (5/4
So unless you're saying that the sahaba of Muhammad ibn Abdullah were musyrikeen themselves (because they had a 'live' messenger too), its false to connect having a living ar-rasool with taking ar-rasool as an idol. There's no need to idolise any rasool. We're simply to obey, follow and emulate him.
then what is wrong with following and emulating a dead man then?
see, the more into idolising are those who want a live man to follow and emulate, therefore the sunni are less idolising than those who want a rasool to follow and emulate now
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then what is wrong with following and emulating a dead man then?
Al-quraan speaks of going into battle, with ar-rasool in the lead. It's a bit impossible given his corpse is in madeenah. Oops, I forgot. For you that's history, never to happen again.
see, the more into idolising are those who want a live man to follow and emulate, therefore the sunni are less idolising than those who want a rasool to follow and emulate now
Please give me evidence for this. That its IDOLATRY to expect a living ar-rasool. I take it al-quraan is still your criteria?
On the other hand, al-quraan says
And to you there came Joseph in times gone by, with Clear Signs, but ye ceased not to doubt of the (Mission) for which he had come At length, when he died, ye said 'No apostle will God send after him.' thus doth God leave to stray such as transgress and live in doubt (40/34)
So it seems al-quraan contradicts your criteria here. No worries though, you could just say this ayat is history and it has no living application. That's your usual get-out clause anyway.
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My name is Neil. I used to be active in this forum and others like it a few years ago. I'm glad to be back and I hope a can make a worthy contribution to the discussions. AL-QURAN is still AL-FURQAN/the criterion for me.
After reading the article 'Where was Muhammad?' it got me to thinking about the Pilgrimages of the Jews.
These pilgrimages were called HAG/hajj meaning pilgrimmage or festival. There were 3 HAG each year to the Temple of God/BAYT Allah in Jerusalem. The 'holy of holies' of this Temple was said to be situated over maqom avraham/MAQAM IBRAHEEM which has been called the KABAH in the article.
Here is some more interesting info I found in Jewish sources;
http//www.everythingjewish.com/Shavuot/origins.htm
The Jewish philosopher, Philo, (c.20 B.C.E.-c 50 C.E.) who lived in Alexandria, and Flavius Josephus, (c.38 C.E.-c. 100C.E.) the Roman Jewish historian, wrote about the Jewish pilgrimages to Jerusalem. Philo wrote that multitudes of Jews from countless cities converged on the temple at each festival. Some came by land and others by sea, from east, west, north and south.
Babylonia, which probably had the biggest Jewish population outside Israel, supplied the largest flow of pilgrims. Pilgrims traveled in caravans, setting off from towns inside and out of Israel. Obviously, not every Jew was able to travel to Jerusalem three times a year, so groups of district representatives known as the Ma?amad were organized.
The Mishnah, in Tractate Bikkurim, paints a lively picture of what it was like to travel to the Temple for the holiday of Shavuot.
At the rise of morning an official says ?Rise and let us go up to Zion to the House of the Lord our G-d.? An ox walked before them, its horns covered in gold, and with an olive crown in its head. The challil, (flute) was played before them until they reached the vicinity of Jerusalem. Upon coming close to Jerusalem, they sent word ahead and decorated their bikkurim (offering). The important officials went out to meet them? and all the tradesmen in Jerusalem stood before them and greeted them ?Our brothers, the men of such and such a place, you have come in peace.?
The flute was played before them till they reached the Temple Mount. Even King Agripas took the basket on his shoulders and carried it until he reached the courtyard. When the pilgrims reached the courtyard, the Levites sang ?I will exalt You, O G-d, for You have saved me and You have not rejoiced my enemies before me.?
The Torah refers to Shavuot as Hag ha-katzir, (Exodus 2314-19) the feast of the harvest, as Hag Hashavuot, the festival of weeks, and as Yom ha-bikurim, (Leviticus 239-22) the day of first fruits, when farmers brought their produce to the Temple as an offering.
Shavuot is the second of the shalosh regalim, the three annual pilgrimage holidays of Pesach, Shavuot, and Sukkot, when Jews from all over Israel and beyond converged onto Jerusalem to celebrate and bring temple offerings.
The Torah commands that Shavuot be celebrated exactly seven weeks after the second day of Pesach, the day of the first Omer, the early barley harvest offering. This explains the name Shavuot ? Hebrew for weeks, or as it?s known in Greek, Pentecost, meaning fiftieth day.
?You shall count off seven weeks; start to count the seven weeks when the sickle is first put to the standing grain. Then you shall observe the Feast of Weeks for the Lord your G-d, offering your free will contribution according as the Lord your G-d has blessed you?
Kabbalists saw in the number seven the concept of the sefirot, the spiritual spheres that surround the heavens and G-d. The number 49 is also symbolic of the 49 gates of impurity from which the ancient Israelites were released as they left the land of Egypt.
According to a very old tradition, the period between Pesach and Shavuot is also a season of mourning. Marriages are not performed, hair is not cut and live music is not played or heard. The reasons for this are not entirely clear.
One tradition suggests that since this period was preparatory to receiving the Torah, these days were set aside for serious reflection and study. Therefore, frivolous activities were put on hold.
The most widely accepted explanation is that a mysterious plague cost the lives of many of Rabbi Akiva?s students during the Roman period. On the thirty-third day of the Omer, the mysterious plague stopped. This is why Lag Ba?Omer, the thirty-third day of the Omer, is observed as a special, though minor Jewish holiday, when marriages, haircuts and live music are permitted.The things that sound similar to what is in the Quran are
Ma'amad, decoration of offerings(necklaces), pilgrims come to the House of God rijaalan(2227)/regalim, restrictions on haircuts and frivilous activities
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Salam Neil,
It is always good to hear from old friends and pioneers of this site and the overall movement back to God Alone )
When I was researching for this article, I noticed '3 pilgrimages a year' to Jerusalem...Although there is no reference made between this information and the issue of Where Was Mohammed, you will find that the article on Hajj does come to the same conclusion independantly that the Hajj is to be held 3 times per year.
The Hajj is mentioned as being 'in the marked/known months' and hence are clearly not a single event per year.
Here is an excerpt from the article
- The timing of the Pilgrimage is the first 3-days of the last three restricted months (i.e. 3 Pilgrimages can be held each year).
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/hajj.htm
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Peace be upon you brother,
How long ago it seems when you first brought this idea up. There was the Hajj Yahoo group. There was a lot of interesting stuff posted there. Can you remember the exact name of it?
OK.. so if we have 4 al-haram months, then we have 3 pilgrimage months for 3 different pilgrimages and 1 fasting month. We can see in the Quran that the actual pilgrimage itself lasts for a limited amount of days. What would be the need to have four sacred months for that amount of time, if not for three seperate pilgrimages in three of those months?
With this understanding the amount of time Moses was working for the father of his bride would amount to just under 3 years (2827). That seems more reasonable then 8 or 10 years work.
Seeing that Moses was living in agriculatural environment at that time and the hag/hajj were agriculatural festivals.... the hags are intimately connected with harvest time......Moses was saying...I will work for you ...this many harvests
With this understanding is it possible that YAWM ALHAJJ ALAKBAR(93) in fact means the time of the greatest Hajj ie. the greatest of the three hajj.
In biblical times, Sukkot was considered to be the most important festival. It was actually referred to as ha-chag, the festival, (Kings 1232). King Solomon chose Sukkot as the holiday during which he consecrated the first temple. It was also the occasion every seven years for the ceremony hak'heil, the public reading of the Torah before the whole people (Deuteronomy 3110-13). Sukkot is also said to be the festival of the future, when in the messianic period, all nations will come to Jerusalem and celebrate.
