The Alcohol debate - new insight.
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JK
then why are we also told that heaven will be beyond our understanding. No pain no worries, but still it will be like earth to make us comfortable? that contradictory no? Which is it? Are we going to be beyond pain and missing loved ones, but still attached to earthly things such as grape juice? Come on. I will forget my pain but need the simplest of earthly pleasures to be comfortable? Or is it a lie told to get man to believe in an afterlife, or just to believe it in some pathetic simplistic way? and therefore a lie...
It is ironic that what you accuse us of believing in some pathetic simplistic way is actually describing you
our faith is not simple neither easy to achieve, it is bloody damn hard and is the hardest thing is this damn life
what you follow is what I call simple and premitive, who you want to kid exactly saw?
i know
it has to be yourself
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I canside it a valid question given the translations and interpretations of texts in this thread. As for my personal beliefes, I don't believe I have revealed enough for anyone to undestand it too much nor have many people asked. I do have to look back to someone (I forget who at the moment) who asked for a more detailed explanation but I am still figuring out how best to go about that. My coment was based on teh writings in THIS thread. Again, I think there is room for all beliefes especially when on their purest and most basic level they are the same. I am not debating the beliefes just the texts nd particular interpretaions I suppose.
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I canside it a valid question given the translations and interpretations of texts in this thread. As for my personal beliefes, I don't believe I have revealed enough for anyone to undestand it too much nor have many people asked.
ok, but aren't you kean to help your fellow confused humans and take the intiative?, or you don't give a fluke?
I do have to look back to someone (I forget who at the moment) who asked for a more detailed explanation but I am still figuring out how best to go about that.
so your concept is not complete yet?
My coment was based on teh writings in THIS thread. Again, I think there is room for all beliefes especially when on their purest and most basic level they are the same. I am not debating the beliefes just the texts nd particular interpretaions I suppose.
there is room for all these beliefs on this ending life, but on the afater life ther will only be one accpeted belief the rest will be thrown to the hell fire, this is what the Quran says not me,
now if you think this is only to scrae humans, then I may ask you, scare them of what?, and is it working? and who planned it? and who excuted it?
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I canside it a valid question given the translations and interpretations of texts in this thread. As for my personal beliefes, I don't believe I have revealed enough for anyone to undestand it too much nor have many people asked. I do have to look back to someone (I forget who at the moment) who asked for a more detailed explanation but I am still figuring out how best to go about that. My coment was based on teh writings in THIS thread. Again, I think there is room for all beliefes especially when on their purest and most basic level they are the same. I am not debating the beliefes just the texts nd particular interpretaions I suppose.
Hi sawtooth,
I don't think it's because no one has noticed your variant views - it's just that there is such a heterogeneous group of people here that it hardly matters.
I've noticed that you're trying to tell us something more lately but you're still not quite there. Take your time, there are no prizes for rushing; but somehow I sense a destructive element within you that is struggling to manifest itself.
A few members disappeared about the time you registered. I'm wondering whether we may already know you somehow?
Regards.
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destructive, no. I will admit that at times my inability to understand why others see things the way they do will frustrate me and cause me to lash out a touch, but i am far from destructive. I loathe the person that would sek to convert me so I would never seek to do the same to others. I sinmply enjoy the debate and descussion of philosophies. I can also tell you that not only do i have no idea who left when I came but i don't know anyone here which is probably why I enjoy it so much. Certainly no need to get paranoid. Ahmedbahgat got paranoid over something his profiler did and ended up wrong. I apologize if things came out wrong, but again, I just get frustrated.
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destructive, no. I will admit that at times my inability to understand why others see things the way they do will frustrate me and cause me to lash out a touch, but i am far from destructive. I loathe the person that would sek to convert me so I would never seek to do the same to others. I sinmply enjoy the debate and descussion of philosophies. I can also tell you that not only do i have no idea who left when I came but i don't know anyone here which is probably why I enjoy it so much. Certainly no need to get paranoid. Ahmedbahgat got paranoid over something his profiler did and ended up wrong. I apologize if things came out wrong, but again, I just get frustrated.
I don't really understand what ahmedbahgat has to do with it?
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Well once again it looks as though I am being confused with someone or placed into something I have nothig to do with. Perhaps i have bad timing, but regardless I am clueless. Actually I thought this placed looked fairly drama free, one of the reasons I joined. From my experience it is still relatively drama free so i will stick around at least for a while
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Well once again it looks as though I am being confused with someone or placed into something I have nothig to do with. Perhaps i have bad timing, but regardless I am clueless. Actually I thought this placed looked fairly drama free, one of the reasons I joined. From my experience it is still relatively drama free so i will stick around at least for a while
I guess it is drama free in here and will stay that way, but if you want drama, come to faithfreedom.org, I joined yesterday and I reckon there will be a lot of drama there
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I canside it a valid question given the translations and interpretations of texts in this thread. As for my personal beliefes, I don't believe I have revealed enough for anyone to undestand it too much nor have many people asked.
ok, but aren't you kean to help your fellow confused humans and take the intiative?, or you don't give a fluke?
I do have to look back to someone (I forget who at the moment) who asked for a more detailed explanation but I am still figuring out how best to go about that.
so your concept is not complete yet?
My coment was based on teh writings in THIS thread. Again, I think there is room for all beliefes especially when on their purest and most basic level they are the same. I am not debating the beliefes just the texts nd particular interpretaions I suppose.
there is room for all these beliefs on this ending life, but on the afater life ther will only be one accpeted belief the rest will be thrown to the hell fire, this is what the Quran says not me,
now if you think this is only to scrae humans, then I may ask you, scare them of what?, and is it working? and who planned it? and who excuted it?
so to the hell fire I go. perhaps heaven is what we make it out to be individually. For you it will be filled with good muslims, for me it will be something ompletely different. Your hell might BE my heaven. Won't know till I die and I am not going to spend life worrying about it.
It is not that my plilosophy is incomplete, of course it is as I am still growing as a human and a soul. my issue is putting it into words in such a way as others will understand it best. that's all.
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so to the hell fire I go.
it is not me who is saying that, it is your God in the last warning he sent to humanity, all I did I delivered the message to you, because you don't read arabic so I read it to you, now you can't use the excuse of not knowing arabic because the message was given to yoou in english
perhaps heaven is what we make it out to be individually.
not perhaps rather surley, and we will end up ith zillions of opinions, the pint is we all are dumb because we followed our illusions to imagine something that is still hidden and is created by another enttity that we haven't seen yet, in effect all the zillions opinions are wrong, let's just leave it to the one who created it and see what he has to say, I'm sure we will all end up with one opinion not bloody zillion confusing ones
For you it will be filled with good muslims,
again, it is not what i said, it is the one who created that paradise (God), who said as such in his Quran, again muslims is not a label as you think, it is an action of submitting to Allah, therefore your wrong statment should actually stated as paradise will be filled by good submitters to Allah
for me it will be something ompletely different. Your hell might BE my heaven.
excuse me, how come a hell is a heaven?, I'm sure this can't be even expalined by realtivity shock
Won't know till I die and I am not going to spend life worrying about it.
this is a very unbalanced statement by you
so you don't wan't to spend your life (this life) worrying about it, and when it happens and if true, you will spend eternity suffering, I don't know if what you said will make sense to a child, but sure i don't get it myself as an adult
It is not that my plilosophy is incomplete of course it is,
oh yeh, i can see it is very complete and answers most of the questions with saisfactory answers
as I am still growing as a human and a soul. my issue is putting it intowords in such a way as others will understand it best. that's all.
ok I'm listening
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What I mean is, that when we die, perhaps where we go is place that will be most comfortable for our transition. For you it will be a place filled with what you have studies and believed for so long, for me it will be something else and so on and so forth. Perhaps it is a creation of our own mind and once we come to terms with the cross over, we move on to the next stage. What that is, or what comes after human death will be a mystery for everyone until they discover for themselves in death. What lies after death is not as important to me as what I do with life. I do not led my life as I do because I either want a particular heaven or fear some kind of hell. I life my life because I feel it is the right way NOW while I am living. I will deall with death when I face it. I do not fear or look forward to death, I accept it as a part of life. I do not need a reward or a threat to live it any particular way. I hope that explains my side better for you, at least on this subject
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Well once again it looks as though I am being confused with someone or placed into something I have nothig to do with. Perhaps i have bad timing, but regardless I am clueless. Actually I thought this placed looked fairly drama free, one of the reasons I joined. From my experience it is still relatively drama free so i will stick around at least for a while
I guess it is drama free in here and will stay that way, but if you want drama, come to faithfreedom.org, I joined yesterday and I reckon there will be a lot of drama there
This may be a little off topic but when I read your post and went to the site you mentioned I was saddened.
I will not say that I read everything on that site however I must say it is disturbing to me to visit a site that has stories of "Why I left Islam'. To leave Islam to me would be the second worst thing I could do in my life. Leaving the corrupt, politicized, hadith-ized, customized, cultur-ized, representation of Islam was the best, thank the God.
But when people have lived Islam that is distorted and disguised and profess to know it and leave it, it is a sad day.
I really need it to be understood that I in no manner am for leaving Islam. I would say I am more for dispelling the myths and lies and learning Islam, ?from the cradle to the grave?.
I believe we must be careful as there are those who do not love Islam as they have had their hearts broken by what they believed Islam to be and would soon see others leave Islam and believe they must leave it.
I am not one of those. I love the God and I love Islam
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Ahmedbahgat, I have to ask. Why would you join a forum that so obviously goes against your beliefes? then join and go straight into trying to create drama? I checked it out and it seems to me that a place a Muslim would only go to in order to fight. I have to say I am not quite sure I understand you at all
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Well once again it looks as though I am being confused with someone or placed into something I have nothig to do with. Perhaps i have bad timing, but regardless I am clueless. Actually I thought this placed looked fairly drama free, one of the reasons I joined. From my experience it is still relatively drama free so i will stick around at least for a while
I guess it is drama free in here and will stay that way, but if you want drama, come to faithfreedom.org, I joined yesterday and I reckon there will be a lot of drama there
This may be a little off topic but when I read your post and went to the site you mentioned I was saddened.
Hello sister
of course it is very sad, but at least there is freedom in there to say what you want, unlike many boards that act like kidergarten class, btw I know this web site for over 2 years, i just didn't have time to mess around with them due to many commitments, now I believe I have the time to be in there
it is more shame that muslims don't go there and respond hard to them, their tactics is known which is to drive them away to clear the stage for their hatred and racism, but I guess i'm not going to be an easy target, I will respect whoever will talk with respect, the others will be responded accordingly, I'm a person with multiple personalities and i have seen it all at ff from children to mature adults, I'm also eager for long time to debate Dr Sina, however I'm not going to do it on his rules, it is going to happen on a hew set of rules, otherwise no need to watse our time
I guess muslims has to do what they have to do
I will not say that I read everything on that site however I must say it is disturbing to me to visit a site that has stories of "Why I left Islam'. To leave Islam to me would be the second worst thing I could do in my life. Leaving the corrupt, politicized, hadith-ized, customized, cultur-ized, representation of Islam was the best, thank the God.
I read most of the things there for two years, but never participated, when I joined yesterday even one of my malicious enemies welcomed me which i appreciated, I guess it is a good start to force them into a healthy and intellect discussions, if they act stupiditly then I will expose them to themselves, this is so easy to do
But when people have lived Islam that is distorted and disguised and profess to know it and leave it, it is a sad day.
it is all human distortions, the religion of islam is preserved in the Quran
I really need it to be understood that I in no manner am for leaving Islam. I would say I am more for dispelling the myths and lies and learning Islam, ?from the cradle to the grave?.
and that is why I joined there and my voice is going to be very strong inshaallah, at least I won't get warnings defending myself as I do get'm in here
I believe we must be careful as there are those who do not love Islam as they have had their hearts broken by what they believed Islam to be and would soon see others leave Islam and believe they must leave it.
don't worry sister, I have two years experience dealing with those, believe me, it is so easy to deal with them as an indvidual imagine if the muslims stand united and not bloody conflict on silly things they created themselves, they even conflict on the name of the Book Allah sent
this is a disgrace for muslims
peace sister
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Ahmedbahgat, I have to ask. Why would you join a forum that so obviously goes against your beliefes?
it is a duty now and I will not retreat from it, this is what I decided toi do for the rest of my life
then join and go straight into trying to create drama?
not really as you think, in fact one of my enemies welcomed me and it felt sincere, "Time will tell" his name is Mughal, and was one of the malacious enemy of Islam on LU and he could not handle my heat, now we will dialogue again under another set of rules, this will be the same for all who will raise concerns about my religion with respect
the other children and teens who donlt know how to respect themselves andliving a deluded life will be dealt accordingly, if drama is required then I will welcome that drama
I checked it out and it seems to me that a place a Muslim would only go to in order to fight. I have to say I am not quite sure I understand you at all
yes it took me two years to take up that descision and yesterday it was excuted, i wannt to debate them fair and square but under new sets of rules that we will create it together
believe me I know exactly how to deal with them and it is going to be hard that I will be driven out unless conspircies are invloved
Salam
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It looks like school yard bickering to me, not a good place for debate. Just my opinion. I got bored after looking at about 15 threads.
you are right, that is why I will not do it with everyone, I will pick and choose which threads I should have a say in it, most of the crap there is repetitive anyway and is repeated for hundreds of years and was refuted by muslims children hundreds of years back, they just don't get sick of it and we too will not not get sick of it
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Dear Oben
I think you are rushing into judgment without sufficient research.
The word khamr is used generally for intoxicants and specifically for wine. Hebrew language too uses the same word for intoxicants and wine.
If you are right regarding your assertions, then may I ask you the following questions
What is the Arabic word for "wine"?
What is the Arabic word for "gambling"?Peace,
Edip -
Dear Oben
I think you are rushing into judgment without sufficient research.
The word khamr is used generally for intoxicants and specifically for wine. Hebrew language too uses the same word for intoxicants and wine.
If you are right regarding your assertions, then may I ask you the following questions
What is the Arabic word for "wine"?
What is the Arabic word for "gambling"?Peace,
EdipPeace Edip,
In relation to gambling I am going to use Rashad's translation to perhaps strengthen even more the proposal I have made in this post that "maysir" is not gambling, but is indeed "easy life".
590 O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed.
In this translation you can easily see that Rashad translates "almaysir" as 'gambling', and has translated "alazlamu" as 'games of chance'. Are they not synonymous? Isn't gambling (betting money on an outcome) the same thing as a game of chance?
This should clue someone into the fact that 'alazlamu' - as a game of chance or guessing at the future can signify gambling as a catch all term. Certainly Rashad thought so.
Therefore this indicates a redundancy and points to an error in translating 'almaysir' which I have proposed means 'easy life'/'lazy life'.
As far wine goes - 'sakaran' is clearly used in 1667.
Moreover there is almost an implicit understanding in verses such as 3747 (which indicate that drinks in paradise will have 'no headache' or adverse effect) which suggests that the people addressed are aware of the negative effects of such intoxicating drinks on earth. That this effect is understood and experienced; and that the offering of the same drinks in paradise will be free of this effect.
Therefore the people addressed are in a sense drinking intoxicants on earth and are aware of the headache and other negative effects of the intoxicants mentioned as provisions in 1667.
8325 has 'raheeqin' as 'wine'. 'sharabin' may also be taken as wine in 3851.
The proposal for "alkhamr" being dissimulation fits the context and moreover is a more direct meaning from the root.
I can't comment on Hebrew and its correct root word for wine except to say that many modern Hebrew words are derived from other semitic languages like Arabic.
In excavations at Samaria shards were found bearing the inscription yn that is yayin, ?wine.? This form is not used in Hebrew, except as a construct, but in Canaanite (Phoenician) it is also found in the absolute.
http//www.adath-shalom.ca/hebrew_words_history.htm#foreign_into_heb3
(Khamr, "wine" is usually taken to be a borrowing of Syriac hamra, for example).
http//www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/009819.php
So you can see that the etymology of 'khamr' as wine is attributed to being a borrowing from Syriac rather than Hebrew for which I could find no evidence.
When there is such a direct meaning then I think it needs to be considered. One must also remember that the 'scholars' by 'qiyas' take 'khamr' as used in 590 to mean intoxicant in general and thereby make all such substances forbidden. But useful medications like anti-anxiety drugs and morphine even are 'intoxicants' and one thereby gets into needless arguments about what situations these are and aren't allowed.
Regards.