Was The Messenger Of The Qur'aan An Orphan?
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Peace be upon you all,
Please continue with any respectful debate of the topic of this thread.
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if "yatim" can be traslated as alone the argument has merit. I wonder why Ahmed refuses to entertain this possibility and on what grounds?
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if "yatim" can be traslated as alone the argument has merit. I wonder why Ahmed refuses to entertain this possibility and on what grounds?
because he was not alone, he was with his grand father then with his uncle who raised him in a healthy enviroment while providing protection and shelter to him as well
now using your own logic, Alone can not fit because he was not alone
Orphan must fit because orphan does not mean alone but it means one or two parents are lost
see how flawed the argument of those who promote it?, with no apparent gain but lots of conjestures, and the most of all it contradicts the Quran that said he was an orphan but Allah provided shelter and protection to him (that must be through his gran father and his uncle then therough his rich wife Khadiga)
EXACTLY AS WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT Mohammad
that is why I will follow Allah clear arabic words in the Quran and will never follow those who manipulate the arabic words out of its context, the Quran actually mentions them and promises them with horrible punishment
peace
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because he was not alone, he was with his grand father then with his uncle who raised him in a healthy enviroment while providing protection and shelter to him as well
How do you know this? How do you know he was with his grandfather and then uncle?
Can you not accept that all these stories you use to support your pre-conceptions are a mythology and fabricated?
EXACTLY AS WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT Mohammad
We know nothing firm from sources outside the reading. It's all myth and legend.
The first mentions of "Muhammad" on coins occur hundreds of years after the commencement of an Islamic period. Once the legends had spread and the myths had taken hold among the Arabs who had reverted to their paganism.
997 The Arabs are the worst in disbelief and hypocrisy, and the most likely to ignore the laws that GOD has revealed to His messenger. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
Al-aAArabu ashaddu kufran wanifaqan waajdaru alla yaAAlamoo hudooda ma anzala Allahu AAala rasoolihi waAllahu AAaleemun hakeemun
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because he was not alone, he was with his grand father then with his uncle who raised him in a healthy enviroment while providing protection and shelter to him as well
How do you know this? How do you know he was with his grandfather and then uncle?
From the authenticated history records, and that is what is known about Mohammad for thelast 1400 years even by the non muslims
Can you not accept that all these stories you use to support your pre-conceptions are a mythology and fabricated?
The qualified ones yes I can not reject it as it has been qualified by the clear Arabic Quran
EXACTLY AS WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT Mohammad
We know nothing firm from sources outside the reading. It's all myth and legend.
what is the reading first?
sounds very vague to me, however I got all the info I have through reading, that is right
The first mentions of "Muhammad" on coins occur hundreds of years after the commencement of an Islamic period. Once the legends had spread and the myths had taken hold among the Arabs who had reverted to their paganism.
997 The Arabs are the worst in disbelief and hypocrisy, and the most likely to ignore the laws that GOD has revealed to His messenger. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
Al-aAArabu ashaddu kufran wanifaqan waajdaru alla yaAAlamoo hudooda ma anzala Allahu AAala rasoolihi waAllahu AAaleemun hakeemun
so?
the verse says to Mmohammad a portion of the Arabs will be as such, not the whole bloody arabs, also, the verse may be related to an incident opf the past as well.
regardless of that, The quran also said most people on earth are bad, would that mean me, you and all humans are also bad?,
so what is your argument regarding the clear areabic words that means orphan and does not mean Alone?
how come he was alone and he never was alone?
this is a tough querstion and yet no reasonable answer provided, other than shifting the subject to the hypocrite arabs, what is that mate?
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Hello All
Alone means "Waheed" as you can see it is close to the arabic number "Wahid"
therefore to make Yatim = Alone has no merit whatsoever
here is Waheed "Alone" in the clear Arabic Quran
(11)
YUSUFALI Leave Me alone, (to deal) with the (creature) whom I created (bare and) alone!-
PICKTHAL Leave Me (to deal) with him whom I created lonely,
SHAKIR Leave Me and him whom I created alone,
amazingly the word "Waheed" "Alone" appeared only ONCE in the Quran
it is also stricking that the verse number is 11
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because he was not alone, he was with his grand father then with his uncle who raised him in a healthy enviroment while providing protection and shelter to him as well
this is conjecture.. the verses we're consulting give us no indication this was ever the case.
now using your own logic, Alone can not fit because he was not alone
It isn't my logic but I am leaning towards agreeing with it.. It makes more sense.. read 937 too.. "And He found you lost, and He guided you?" do u now have an accompanying story from this "History" about when the Prophet got lost and was found?
I believe 'orphaned' and 'lost' here are not to be taken literally.
most of all it contradicts the Quran that said he was an orphan but Allah provided shelter and protection to him (that must be through his gran father and his uncle then therough his rich wife Khadiga)
no the Qur'an doesn't say that.. there's no mention of his father uncle or Khadiga.. could u let me know where u read this in the Qur'an?
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because he was not alone, he was with his grand father then with his uncle who raised him in a healthy enviroment while providing protection and shelter to him as well
this is conjecture.. the verses we're consulting give us no indication this was ever the case.
as being Alone is also conjecture, at least my conjecture has plenty of followers, muslims or non
so according to that which do you think is far fetched?
now using your own logic, Alone can not fit because he was not alone
It isn't my logic but I am leaning towards agreeing with it.. It makes more sense.. read 937 too.. "And He found you lost, and He guided you?" do u now have an accompanying story from this "History" about when the Prophet got lost and was found?
that is your wrong understanding to the arabic word "Dalan", it does not mean lost in a suburb, it mean lost about knowing Allah, and Allah guided Him because Mohammad wanted it, 'Allah guides whoever wants to be guided", the arrogants on the other hand are ingnored and hated by Allah
I believe 'orphaned' and 'lost' here are not to be taken literally.
Dalan is the one that has not to be taken literaly but the orphan has to be taken literally
the Quran is a combination of literal/non literal content
most of all it contradicts the Quran that said he was an orphan but Allah provided shelter and protection to him (that must be through his gran father and his uncle then therough his rich wife Khadiga)
no the Qur'an doesn't say that.. there's no mention of his father uncle or Khadiga.. could u let me know where u read this in the Qur'an?
as I said to ask for an evidence from the Quran for the confirmed history records is the weakest argument
if you insist on that then I have many questions to ya
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do you believe in the Quran?, i guess you will say 100%
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who delivered the Quran?. I guess you will say Mohammad
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Then how you can confirm to me that Mohammad or other did not manipulate the Quran by adding and removing content?, you can't
you also didn't answer 7411
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Peace
Then how you can confirm to me that Mohammad or other did not manipulate the Quran by adding and removing content?,
The authentification method is given .
Joe
Peace
but again how you can confirm to me that these verses were not inserted in the Quran?
come on thenabi, we are talking reality here not conjecture, it is your own logic guys
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Hello All
Let's consider the following logic
if a group of brothers and sisters lost their parents, I guess they will be called Orphans
but hey, are they alones?, I guess no, because they are a bunch of brothers and sisters
therefore if Allah wanted to mean "Alone" in that verse in dispute, I guess He should have said "Wa Wagadaka WAHEEDAN Fa Awa", especially Allah is not shy to use the word "Waheed" "Alone" as we have seen in 7411
also we have to consider that the context of the word Yatama "which used numerous times in the Quran" only meant "Orphans" and that is plural, Yatim is the singular form of it and is a very common Arabic word in both Literary Arabic and the public arabic
Peace
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Peace
we are talking reality here not conjecture
Well what can I say when you consider the quran conjecture. I can guide none.
how you can confirm to me that these verses were not inserted in the Quran?
Apply the method I pointed out to you. The reading is nothing based on intellectual inquiry alone. It must be experienced, lived.
Joe
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Peace
we are talking reality here not conjecture
Well what can I say when you consider the quran conjecture. I can guide none.
Peace
Not sure, but i thought you may have something to say, I do when I face that statement but I'm not going to tell you my secrets lol
I wonder why you call it Quran now?, possibly you will say because I name it as such and you were talking from my perpective?, which i should appreciate for sure
how you can confirm to me that these verses were not inserted in the Quran?
Apply the method I pointed out to you. The reading is nothing based on intellectual inquiry alone. It must be experienced, lived.
now I'm confused, you called it Quran then you called it reading, I guess my question is do you mean by the reading the book named Quran?
now regarding living the Quran, can you please eleborate how 7 billions humans should live the the Quran, and when we say live the Quran we mean every verse in the Quran, right?
also I wonder what is your opinion to truth claim a week ago or about that there is a verse which possibly been inserted in the Quran other than 9128 & 9129?, he actually used code 19 to give his claim a bit of merit, but I guess not to the ones who reject code 19
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Peace Ahmed
My do you drift. Be stable like a mountain when it comes to staying in line with a theme.
can you please eleborate how 7 billions humans should live the the Quran
I do not mean that all the people should be living in accordance with the principles laid out in this particular reading. I do not think all of the principles can be truly understood until they stand the test of reality.
Joe
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Peace Ahmed
My do you drift. Be stable like a mountain when it comes to staying in line with a theme.
Peace Joe
My do you drift. Be stable like a mountain when it comes to staying in line with the Jamaah.
can you please eleborate how 7 billions humans should live the the Quran
I do not mean that all the people should be living in accordance with the principles laid out in this particular reading. I do not think all of the principles can be truly understood until they stand the test of reality.
Joe
ok
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I have just 3 comments
Ahmed,
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You cannot compare the old Arabic of the Quranic era with modern literary Arabic and Modern Public Arabic. Your knowledge of Arabic I'm sure is extensive when it comes to modern literary Arabic but it is limited, more than what you (or the Arab history writers) would like to admit when it comes to old Arabic of the Quranic era and before. In the issue of grammar and meanings, old Arabic allows grammar and meanings of words that a modern Arabic speaker would find unintelligible, strange, far-fetched or weak (when compared to the more used modern sense). So you will have to leave much of your sense of what sounds right or not behind. Because old Classical Arabic is a different animal.
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Your statement about dall(un/an/in) is also disputable. From what I know in Old Arabic it did mean physically misguided as well. Physical misguidance can easily be metaphorically used as a spiritual misguidance.
Which brings me back to the point that you should not be equating old Arabic with modern Arabics. -
If yateem can be used to mean 'alienated or abandoned' ask for the source from which this informations comes from. The hadeeth based stories, whether they have more of a following or not (muslim or non-muslim), are not to be preffered over any possible, valid, interpretation of the Koran.
It is true that so far you have just used the history of a hadeeth to say that yateem as 'alienated or abandoned' makes no sense. And you haven't even used a hadeeth that would give linguistic proof but you are using a hadeethic belief, and not evidence that can be percieved from a hadeeth without consulting the 'belief' of the hadeeth. If you see what I'm saying.
Godbless,
Anwar -
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I have just 3 comments
Ahmed,
- You cannot compare the old Arabic of the Quranic era with modern literary Arabic and Modern Public Arabic. Your knowledge of Arabic I'm sure is extensive when it comes to modern literary Arabic but it is limited, more than what you (or the Arab history writers) would like to admit when it comes to old Arabic of the Quranic era and before. In the issue of grammar and meanings, old Arabic allows grammar and meanings of words that a modern Arabic speaker would find unintelligible, strange, far-fetched or weak (when compared to the more used modern sense). So you will have to leave much of your sense of what sounds right or not behind. Because old Classical Arabic is a different animal.
Peace Anwar
I'm sorry bro the Arabic that is taught at all arabic countries at all stages is the Leterary Arabic which is the same as the Arabic Quran, there is no difference whatsoever as far as the Arab language proffessional are concerned
- Your statement about dall(un/an/in) is also disputable. From what I know in Old Arabic it did mean physically misguided as well. Physical misguidance can easily be metaphorically used as a spiritual misguidance.
as far as i know it means spiritual misguidance or phsically lost and even it can mean someone whom his parents are not known, in the Quran verse however the context meant spiritual misguidance
Which brings me back to the point that you should not be equating old Arabic with modern Arabics.
I'm not equating modern arabic, I'm equating the Lugha Arabia Fusha, the same arabic of the Quran, I have hundreds of material regarding the grammar and the arabic Quran written by Arabic Language highly expreienced professional, one of them is the Minister of Awqaf in Egypt, therefore I will listen to the professionals and surely will not listen to the non arabic speakers with my total respect to them
- If yateem can be used to mean 'alienated or abandoned' ask for the source from which this informations comes from. The hadeeth based stories, whether they have more of a following or not (muslim or non-muslim), are not to be preffered over any possible, valid, interpretation of the Koran.
I guess Dallan is the one that can be used to refer to someone with unknown parents, Yatim only means Orpahn and that was the context of the Quran all along when this word was used
It is true that so far you have just used the history of a hadeeth to say that yateem as 'alienated or abandoned' makes no sense.
wrong because I didn't quote any hadith
And you haven't even used a hadeeth that would give linguistic proof but you are using a hadeethic belief,
this is undoublty wrong, I don't use hadith in my arguments with others
and not evidence that can be percieved from a hadeeth without consulting the 'belief' of the hadeeth. If you see what I'm saying.
The belief in the hadith is a personal choice, for me I don't use any hadith in my arguments
there is no hadith that I read which says Mohammad father died before he was born and his mother died when he was six, this is common knowledge even between the non mulsims
Godbless,
Anwarcheers
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...the Arab language proffessional....
...by Arabic Language highly expreienced professional, one of them is the Minister of Awqaf in Egypt, therefore I will listen to the professionals....
Ahmed you make the logical fallacy of appealing to authority which is always invalid; especially invalid when the authority you appeal to is you, yourself which you do with regular monotony.
It's a logical fallacy and everyone knows it by now.
See http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority
there is no hadith that I read which says Mohammad father died before he was born and his mother died when he was six, this is common knowledge even between the non mulsims
This is the logical fallacy of appeal to belief - just because alot of people believe something it does not mean it is true. There are as many people who have it as "common knowledge" that Christ is a deity. How do you answer them?
You must avoid the logical fallacies Ahmed, you argue in very facile ways and it is never hard to see the repeated wrong logic you use.
Regards.
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...the Arab language proffessional....
...by Arabic Language highly expreienced professional, one of them is the Minister of Awqaf in Egypt, therefore I will listen to the professionals....
Ahmed you make the logical fallacy of appealing to authority which is always invalid; especially invalid when the authority you appeal to is you, yourself which you do with regular monotony.
I do not know what you mean, but it seems you are building your understainding that I'm following an authority, I only listen btw, obeying is totally something else, but hat i obey is what my own understanding concluded, it just happens that it is the same as the majority
It's a logical fallacy and everyone knows it by now.
See http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority
Thanks for the link, interesting read indeed, however it does not apply to me as I don't follow any but myself, it just happens that my understanding is the same as the majority, and this is enough to make feel happy and peaceful
there is no hadith that I read which says Mohammad father died before he was born and his mother died when he was six, this is common knowledge even between the non mulsims
This is the logical fallacy of appeal to belief - just because alot of people believe something it does not mean it is true. There are as many people who have it as "common knowledge" that Christ is a deity. How do you answer them?
as I said if it makes sense to me based on my own understanding then this is most likely what I will go for, then if check out many other understandings and found that the majority is the same as mine then certainly my own understanding is the one that I will go for
You must avoid the logical fallacies Ahmed, you argue in very facile ways and it is never hard to see the repeated wrong logic you use.
Regards.
Bro, as I said I don't follow based on the majority for example I don't follow the compulsory "shahada all day long" because it does not make sense to me therefore you can't say that I base my understanding on the majority understanding, my understadings are just matters of being many times the same as the majority and this is enough to make me happy and peaceful
Best Regards
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quite simply the strongest argument in Ahmed's favor is the use of the word "yatim" in the Qur'an.. we do not get any evidence of it meaning "Alone" by it's use in the Qur'an.. which is our primary guide.. as it explains itself.
However, the OP's discovery of the use of plural and singular when addressing the Prophet do hold some weight. The context of the use of addressing the Prophet as "orphan" and "lost" also suggests the meaning to be more on the non-literal side.
I still think it's a noble effort by the OP to share this discovery.