gay people and islam
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Peace
On another note, why cant we also address those Homosexuals that DO molest like the Catholic Priest Epedemic? Are they all born homosexuals also?
every person who commits a crime, of course demand him, persecute him and jail him.
you are resorting to my emotions. When we agree it is also my emotions that drive me?
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
idolfree.... When in adoleselce, SOME people find themselves confused over what they are feeling in regards to others. Some may find that they are atracted to an individual and feel that they are either one way or another sexually and look into those feelings. Some find out they are homosexuals, some find out they were confusing their emotions. THAT is experimentation. Emtions are not always easy to figure out, but sexual atraction coes down to how a body reacts. it DOES or it DOESN'T
Thats not true. The "body" reacts based on programming. There are heterosexual couples who "loved" each other but have gone through so much EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS (arguments or what have you) that they cant get excited for sex with each other anymore. Likes and dislikes change, they are not "YOU". They are not the "I".
and YES that goes for both genders. Sometimes the IDEA of a taboo can be a turn on while the reality proves to be a complete turnoff, but you don't know until you put it to the test SOMETIMES
So since there is KNOWLEDGE hat crack kills, you are saying thatit is natural for someone to "try it out" just to be extra extra sure?
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Peace all. Other sexual acts which are harmful include those which carry an irrational amount of risk to the doer and/or the people around. eg People have hurt themselves with bondage,whips,electricity,drugs,exposing themselves,unhygienic practises,animals etc..
Consent,rationality,knowledge and ethics are required to avoid harm.(as with all other fields of life).
Peace. -
Peace be upon you Enquirer,
Peace idol-free and all. With the example of farm animals,rape,child-abuse etc..These are wrong...Why? Because there is no consent from the abused. What can also be harmful is abusing the trust/vulnerability of members of society who have either not yet reached maturity, or have not come to understand their sexuality.
Peace all.How about the dog that humps your leg? Surely that would be "consenting", is it okay for the human "returns the favor"?
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Peace be upon you Enquirer,
Peace idol-free and all. I am going to make an observation to you idol-free. Why do you tell certain members that they are 'emotional' and so cannot see the situation in a 'true' light? Has it occured to you that you may be being emotional yourself on this topic? Im saying this as a brother and not to disrespest you. I think we all need the feedback(constructive) of others.
Peace all.I respect that question GREATLY! Please go back through the posts and you will CLEARLY OBSERVE who is reasoning behind emotion and who is not.
The key words for emotions are those who are stating "love", "Hate", "feelings", "sympathy", etc.
Thats emotion.
My position is based on FORM and FUNCTION, there is no emotion involved with that. There is no emotion in my decision to put a plug in a socket. Please respond if there is any point at all that you disagree with what I have said here. I would like to make this as clear as I can.
That is what this "religion" stuff is truly all about, once we get rid of the nonsense.
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Peace idol-free and all.. The example of the dog would be that i have not consented,therefore it is harmful to me so i would move away from the dog. I take consent to be between the two parties.(not just one) Certain sexual behaviours can be harmful even if both parties consent(eg use of a whip in sex),but this has to be deemed harmful either by those indulging in it or 'neutral' people suggesting that this 'act is/can be harmful. We ourselves(or even 'universal law' )are not the sole judges of what is harmful.
Peace all. -
Peace be upon you Elena,
idolfree1 wrote
On another note, why cant we also address those Homosexuals that DO molest like the Catholic Priest Epedemic? Are they all born homosexuals also?Elena
every person who commits a crime, of course demand him, persecute him and jail him.Where is the rehabilitation aspect? (check Herekhuti in Maat 11 Laws Book). We should not be jailing people for a time then letting them go with teh very same mindset, or even worse. Thats theproblem with the business of prisons, but thats another topic.
you are resorting to my emotions. When we agree it is also my emotions that drive me?
How is asking you about Catholic Priests resorting to your emotions sister?
If that question causes you to get emotional, then you realize there is work to be done thier for your person. If this is an emotional topic for you, how will you expect to see clearly?
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Peace be upon you Enquirer,
Peace idol-free and all.. The example of the dog would be that i have not consented,therefore it is harmful to me
I didnt say anything about "YOU", I asked of the sexual pervert who responds to the dog humping his/her leg, would they be wrong to respond to the dog, since they are both "consenting"?
We ourselves(or even 'universal law' )are not the sole judges of what is harmful.
By saying "sole" judges, you are saying that we are indeed judges, correct?
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Peace idol-free and all. I feel that you are suggesting that your post is objective(not driven by emotions) whilst other posters posts are subjective(driven by by emotions). I would state two things. a) i dont believe humans can be absolutely objective.(which means you still have a subjective element to your thinking ) and b)you are implying that (beacause you are totally objective) that whatever final conclusion you come up with(ie knowledge or verification) that this is correct and absolute. However....This is a form of intellectual bullying(which big boys like me dont get intimidated by too often ) ) and can lead to the 'religious mentality' which you said you wanted to avoid.(ie dogmatic statements and opinions,self-righteousness etc..) we are always learning,we always have some incomplete opinions(or misunderstandings) and we are always subject to some subjectivity.
Finally a question,can anyone control their emotions totally? Im posting respectfully to try to understand /clarify a few points,not to argue or cause harm. Peace brother idol-free and all. -
Peace
How is asking you about Catholic Priests resorting to your emotions sister?
If that question causes you to get emotional, then you realize there is work to be done thier for your person. If this is an emotional topic for you, how will you expect to see clearly?
nooo, there is misunderstanding
I was referring to your previous post when you said
Respected sister, you have to understand it is your FEELINGS(emotions) about ths situation that are causing you not to make the two things fit.
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Peace be upon you Enquirer,
Peace idol-free and all. I feel that you are suggesting that your post is objective(not driven by emotions) whilst other posters posts are subjective(driven by by emotions).
Did you make the observations I pointed out?
I would state two things. a) i dont believe humans can be absolutely objective.(which means you still have a subjective element to your thinking )
I disagree, if someone asks me to get a pound of sand, I can weigh and measure (objective) and get a pound. What is subjective about that?
and b)you are implying that (beacause you are totally objective) that whatever final conclusion you come up with(ie knowledge or verification) that this is correct and absolute.
Give me an example of where objective knowledge would be incorrect conclusion.
However....This is a form of intellectual bullying(which big boys like me dont get intimidated by too often ) and can lead to the 'religious mentality' which you said you wanted to avoid.(ie dogmatic statements and opinions,self-righteousness etc..)
Intellectual bullying? Big Boys? I am debating with you, nothing more.
we are always learning,we always have some incomplete opinions(or misunderstandings) and we are always subject to some subjectivity.
Yes, but we should be moving to VERIFY things objectively.
Finally a question,can anyone control their emotions totally? Im posting respectfully to try to understand /clarify a few points,not to argue or cause harm. Peace brother idol-free and all.
Until I fully "control my emotions, I cannot say yes definately, but based on the process I am implementing, it seems that one can indeed "control" thier emotions entirely, or at least to a very high level.
Actually, its about IGNORING emotions, not controlling them. Once we observe and reason something out, then emotion can (and must) follow.
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Peace be upon you Elena,
nooo, there is misunderstanding
I was referring to your previous post when you said
Quote
Respected sister, you have to understand it is your FEELINGS(emotions) about ths situation that are causing you not to make the two things fit.Sorry. My response was based on the below statement
Elena
it is difficult to make the two things fit. I mean, every time that the word 'perversion' is used here or when equating homosexuality with children molestation I find those expressions denigrating for the homosexual people who don't commit children molestation, abuse, or any other crime. It is not direct violence but I find it intolerant, as much time it is repeated 'we are not against the person'What else is it but "feelings" that would prevent you from seeing a person being able to speak up against something without following up with violence?
Zenje
Can one say they're against something, as Kyle pointed out numerous times, and speak up against it, without the follow-up of violence? -
Peace idol-free. You know at one time an 'objective fact' was that the earth was flat. History is riddled with 'objective' facts that were later proved wrong.(earth being centre of universe etc etc.). And also 1 pound of sand is also an arbitrary and relative measure,which though useful for comparison,is not absolute. Why do we need absolute truths? Whats wrong with relative truths? And If we(humans) do not have access to all knowledge at once how can we make a universal,absolute conclusion?
example all frogs are green.( A so-called truth,absolute statement,verified and observed.) Then 20 years later a scientific discoverer finds white frogs,this is verified and observed. Therefore -End of objective statement(disproved) that 'all frogs are green'. (note,this is a hypothetical example,there may be white,green and pink frogs ) )
Peace. -
Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
idolfree.... When in adoleselce, SOME people find themselves confused over what they are feeling in regards to others. Some may find that they are atracted to an individual and feel that they are either one way or another sexually and look into those feelings. Some find out they are homosexuals, some find out they were confusing their emotions. THAT is experimentation. Emtions are not always easy to figure out, but sexual atraction coes down to how a body reacts. it DOES or it DOESN'T
Thats not true. The "body" reacts based on programming. There are heterosexual couples who "loved" each other but have gone through so much EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS (arguments or what have you) that they cant get excited for sex with each other anymore. Likes and dislikes change, they are not "YOU". They are not the "I".
and YES that goes for both genders. Sometimes the IDEA of a taboo can be a turn on while the reality proves to be a complete turnoff, but you don't know until you put it to the test SOMETIMES
So since there is KNOWLEDGE hat crack kills, you are saying thatit is natural for someone to "try it out" just to be extra extra sure?
GENDER WISE!!!!!! Either a woman is gonna get you hot or a man. What does crack have to do with it?
Oh I am so done with this debate. When poeple are not using the same standard in a debate, there is no conclusion. I think homosexuality is a part of human existence. I acept that and see no reason not (except for reasons based on subjetive religious beliefe). therefore there is no middle ground to meet on.
So it's done
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Peace enquirer,
I'm totally with you on facts that once were, and then totally changed. I've always been saying this. Here's a quote from MIB...
A person is smart. People are dumb. Everything they've ever "known" has been proven to be wrong. A thousand years ago everybody knew as a fact, that the earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, they knew it was flat. Fifteen minutes ago, you knew we humans were alone on it. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow. - Kay
We're on the same page there. However, I will disagree in regard to the scale examples - 1 pound is 1 pound. 32 degree F is 32 degree F... now whether one believes or feels that 1 pound is heavy or light, that is relative, still doesnt change the fact that it's one pound. Whether one finds it to be hot or cold at 32 degrees F is not the question... it's still 32 degrees F. I hope you get my meaning.
Peace.
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Peace be upon you,
Peace idol-free. You know at one time an 'objective fact' was that the earth was flat.
That wasn't a fact, nor was it objective. Further, you make the distiction between "facts" and "truth", which deals with relationships. Our topic is the TRUTH of the relationship of "plugs" and "sockets".
History is riddled with 'objective' facts that were later proved wrong.(earth being centre of universe etc etc.).
You are incorrect. There is evidence BEFORE these people you are referencing who KNEW the earth was round and revolved around the sun. SO what you are refering to was the guesses of other people, this has nothing to do with OBJECTIVITY and the relationships of teh earth to the sun, etc.
And also 1 pound of sand is also an arbitrary and relative measure,which though useful for comparison,is not absolute. Why do we need absolute truths? Whats wrong with relative truths? And If we(humans) do not have access to all knowledge at once how can we make a universal,absolute conclusion?
I am not following what you said above, truth deals with relationships.
example all frogs are green.( A so-called truth,absolute statement,verified and observed.)
Wrong. You are discussing facts, not RELATIONSHIPS. Truth deals with RELATIONSHIPS.
Then 20 years later a scientific discoverer finds white frogs,this is verified and observed. Therefore -End of objective statement(disproved) that 'all frogs are green'. (note,this is a hypothetical example,there may be white,green and pink frogs )
Your example was not valid in regards to truth.
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
GENDER WISE!!!!!! Either a woman is gonna get you hot or a man. What does crack have to do with it?
Crack was stated as a comparison to help you understand, but I dont think you reflected on it. Also, since you asked what Crack has to do with it, there are people who have sex with the same gender in order to get money for crack.
Oh I am so done with this debate.
Easy, dont let emotions get to you D
When poeple are not using the same standard in a debate, there is no conclusion. I think homosexuality is a part of human existence. I accept that and see no reason not (except for reasons based on subjetive religious beliefe). therefore there is no middle ground to meet on.
There's nothing subjective about OB-serving form and function, that is OB-jective. The only subjectiviy seems to be that you feel it is "religion" that is motivating my position. The midle ground is teh verifyable ground, and all you have is guesswork that homosexuality is biological, do you realize that is your only foundation?
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
I went to another thread and saw that you do understand form and function, so I dont know why you have trouble applying it in this case.
Sawtooth
Cow's milk is not great for humans because our digestive system is designed to handle human milk specifically. there are protiens in cows milk that can reak havoc on a human digestive system. think about it.... Do we breast feed cow's? Or offer other species our own milk?I agree with that by the way
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obviously, through out this thread most of us who defend the legal rights of gay people use common sense and compassion, only leyla who presented the opinion with quran verses back up, even still, many disagree with her interpetration. and that's okay, because that is why we are here, to discuss issues like this, hopefully to come to conclusion and agreement, but it doesn't matter either if there is nothing to agree with.
we are still in our journey of understanding life, our understanding now might be right or might be wrong, but we are to endlessly seek the wisdom of life.
i only believe that god is the most merciful and loves his every human being, and we are not to harm each other.