gay people and islam
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Peace be upon you,
But homosexuality is observed in the Animal World. Why? We have no answer yet.
Sure we do. Lust, as with all emotions, are the ANIMAL NATURE within you. Emotion and ANIMATION are the same thing (energy in motion).
So animals LUST after other animals? Kyle Animals only have a REPRODUCTIVE instinct. They don't lust after.
Animals lick each other butts and other kinds of behavior, we cannot take the animals as our guide to correct behavior.
Again Kyle animal have REPRODUCTIVE instinct. Male bulls for example will smell and taste cows urine to check if she had ovoluated. This is all REPRODUCTIVE instinct.
We humans are no longer are DRIVEN BY DARWINIAN REPRODUCTIVE urge.
But the question was homosexuality is obeserved in the Animal World. But we are also have evolved from animals, from the lineage of Apes. But we have become something exceptional. We have become spiritual. The Human Animal is the only Spiritual Creature on this Planet Earth. So the question goes if we have evolved from animals then homosexuality also have originated from there because we can observe homosexaulity in animals too...science has yet to answer these questions yet...
Regards,
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Peace be upon you Idolfree,
Let me add to this, it is blind following of the emotional nature. It is not just that the person is seeking to satisfy an incorrect emotional urge, but the act itself leads to the end of mankind.
The reason I feel people are disagreeing with you, is that they still have yet to see how homosexuality can be catagorized as an incorrect emotional urge. However, I think you answer why you feel this way in the same sentence, the act of homosexuality leads to the end of mankind. So you are deciding what is a moral and immoral act based on its effect upon society as a whole. Other people, unfortunately, perhaps have a different way of defining what's incorrect, and what isn't; that seems to be the main problem.
Riding roller coasters and watching Seinfeld do not prevent the species from continuing. We reason first, if there is no harm in the action, hen we ALLOW pleasure to follow. This is the proper sequence, however, the majority of mankind FOLLOW emotions.
You're correct, however, if you take this to a grand scale like you have with homosexuality, perhaps it does prevent us from continuing. If 100% of people watched seinfeld or fulfilled another seemingly harmless desire, then I think we'd have problems. Just like if everyone was 100% heterosexual and wanted to have 5 kids each, we'd be overpopulated. Does that mean having 5 kids is immoral? Is there harm in the action of 3% of the population being homosexual? Or is there only harm if the action spreads and becomes 50 to 100% of the population.
I agree that the majority of mankind follows emotions, rather than letting emotions yield to them.
Pleasure is an emotional state, just like jealousy, envy, etc. Lets talk for a moment about what happens in the body when we get into an emotional state, our blood leaves teh vital organs and is moved to the organs of "fight or flight", and if this is maintained for too long, we starve our vital organs (brain for example). This is the OBJECTIVITY behind the statement "stress is deadly". So pleasure should not be maintained for long periods eaith, instead we should remain at PEACE, allowing pleasure in the proper amounts. So its not that we should avoid situations that cause pleasure, if the action is healthy and does not effect society, we can allow the pleasure to follow, but should soon get back to peace.
I agree, being led by emotions means we're damaging our body, and not maintaining a state of Peace, like we should be. However, one can make the argument that if 3% of the population was homosexual, and the act is kept behind closed doors, then there should be no grand scale effect on society as a whole. Does this then mean homosexuality is moral? The only way it seems to pose a problem, is if homosexuality can be spread, and more and more of the population becomes homosexual. If this doesn't happen, and the number of homosexuals remains small, how do you find out if its moral or immoral?
One should follow up and look at the statistics of lottery winners and thier death and illness rate.
I'll have to look that up.
Please see my argument above. Also, please refrain from the foul language, respectfully.
My bad, I'll refrain from foul language. Thanks for the reminder.
Universal law clarifies this all for us, but we have to leave emotions out to see it
You'll have to explain how you find out what is a universal law. Btw, I read a bit of metu neter not too long ago, but I started getting lost midway through the book. I'll have to pick it up again when I'm not too busy. I'm diverging from the topic though.
Peace
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Peace idolfree
If your problem is with the word "pervert", then chose whatever word you like that fits to explain incorrect behavior, but the ISSUE will be the same.
yes, another word, or better, no any other word except 'homosexual', I think that one is enough. Thus, no more disagreement because I think your other points don't provoke intolerance.
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Salaam peace and all. Your last post had a lot of excellent food for thought. How are we to decide what is harmful to society? This is the subject of ethics.(and i feel traditional religion is not always ethical) Niestczhe said we(humans) should make our own morals(in response to the circumstances),not religion.
Peace. -
Peace be upon you Idolfree,
So animals LUST after other animals? Kyle Animals only have a REPRODUCTIVE instinct. They don't lust after.
Can you prove that Animals only have reproductive instinct, and have no pleasure from mating?
Again Kyle animal have REPRODUCTIVE instinct. Male bulls for example will smell and taste cows urine to check if she had ovoluated. This is all REPRODUCTIVE instinct.
We humans are no longer are DRIVEN BY DARWINIAN REPRODUCTIVE urge.
But the question was homosexuality is obeserved in the Animal World. But we are also have evolved from animals, from the lineage of Apes. But we have become something exceptional. We have become spiritual. The Human Animal is the only Spiritual Creature on this Planet Earth. So the question goes if we have evolved from animals then homosexuality also have originated from there because we can observe homosexaulity in animals too...science has yet to answer these questions yet
Bulls may smell urine, but like someone said, aren't men more attracted to women when they are ovulating? Don't women like men that are financially stable, and protective? Doesn't this all have to do with reproduction?
I thought the whole reason we always wanted to have sex was because of the pleasure, but the primary purpose of sex was to procreate. Thus, the pleasure aspect of sex is what drives us to want to procreate. I didn't know, that in the past we'd think "well, I gotta keep my lineage going so as to fulfill darwinian principles, so I guess I'll have sex now".
Are you sure that humans are the only spiritual animals? How do you know this? I thought the whale song was pretty spiritual. That whole penguin movie, also made penguins seem spiritual. Once agian, if homosexual came from animals, does that make it right?
Peace -
Peace
How are we to decide what is harmful to society?
Listen people, the backbone of this forum is the reading. People seem to be ignoring the reading as far as I can percieve of the situation. God has decided what is what in the reading. So I will ask that one please give me there reasoning in which the institution of marriage according the the reading relates to homosexuality. I'd like to see that first of all.
Joe
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Peace nabi and all. Whose interpretation of the reading? Mine or yours or abu-hurairahs? Whatever interpretation you come up with there is some subjectivity involved. But i will not hide or drown my conscience behind the quran. Or will i say 'because god says so'. This can be used as an excuse(and has been in history) to justify all kinds of mayhem,illogic and suffering. I thought the forum was based on free-minds,not creating our own hadith out of the quran.
Peace all. -
Peace be upon you Nabi,
I understand that we oughtta be governing our lives using the reading. However, the only way we are going to verify the reading is by analyzing its tenets and trying to figure out the purpose behind them. We can follow them blindly, but we'll never be certain if what we're practicing is correct. We have to use our logic to figure out why it would be moral or immoral. -
Salaam peace. Well said. ! We have to check that what we do is moral or not,not blindly follow.
Peace. -
Peace
Whose interpretation of the reading?
Your's or anyone else's. I was clear on that.
So I will ask that one please give me there <should be their> reasoning in which the institution of marriage according the the reading relates to homosexuality.
Whatever interpretation you come up with there is some subjectivity involved.
How familiar are you with the dictates of correct interpretation concerning the reading?
But i will not hide or drown my conscience behind the quran.
No one is asking you to. This is a quranic forum. Understand?
Or will i say 'because god says so'.
I'm not asking you to be a blind follower. Read my signature.
I thought the forum was based on free-minds,not creating our own hadith out of the quran.
Please do not take the objective of Free-Minds out of context like the objective of freedom of speech is often taken out of context.
Joe
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Peace nabi and all. Is the reading the only way to morality? A person could make the reading fit whatever they wanted it to given the right circumstances,eg follow allah and the prophet meaning follow the sunnah.
I am finding this obsession for evidence from the quran similiar to 'we need hadith to understand islam'. What is the role of our minds,our experiences,our consciences? is this quran an idol?How do i know to put food in my mouth from the quran? Dont you think searching for everything in the quran(rather than some basic principles) is a little like blind following of a 1400 year old collection of facts?Where is the rocket science,tv,test-tube babies etc,etc. in the quran?(Explicitly not in obscure form)
Peace all. -
Peace be upon you Idolfree,
So animals LUST after other animals? Kyle Animals only have a REPRODUCTIVE instinct. They don't lust after.
Can you prove that Animals only have reproductive instinct, and have no pleasure from mating?
Yes there is pleasure but animals carry this out in the mating season. We as a human species don't do this.
Bulls may smell urine, but like someone said, aren't men more attracted to women when they are ovulating?
That may be so. But what I am saying we are not slave to Darwinian Reproductive Urge to REPRODUCE anymore. We are now in control of our REPRODUCTION. The Primary use of Sex is no longer for REPRODUCTION but for PLEASURE.
I thought the whole reason we always wanted to have sex was because of the pleasure, but the primary purpose of sex was to procreate. Thus, the pleasure aspect of sex is what drives us to want to procreate.
PRIMARY use of SEX now is not for REPRODUCTION. It is for pleasure.
I didn't know, that in the past we'd think "well, I gotta keep my lineage going so as to fulfill darwinian principles, so I guess I'll have sex now".
In the past we were driven by the DARWINIAN REPRODUCTIVE URGE towards REPRODUCTION. So we had many offspring as we could. But we are now in control of our REPRODUCTION. So PRIMARY use of SEX is PLEASURE.
Are you sure that humans are the only spiritual animals?
...Erm, yes far as I know. Unless you can show me Animals having built temples to worship their Gods or God -)
We are the only species to conceive ideas that go beyond it. Like the Idea of a God. We are the only species that worship Gods or God. No such observation made in the animal world.
How do you know this?
By studying wink
I thought the whale song was pretty spiritual.
Yes whale song may sound spiritual to our ears. But we are the only species that worship God(s).
That whole penguin movie, also made penguins seem spiritual.
Have they been observed to worship at a temple and offering to their Gods or God?
Once agian, if homosexual came from animals, does that make it right?
PeaceWhat I am saying is that even in Animal World we observe homosexuality in a small percentage of any population. Why is this?
Regards,
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Peace
Enquirer, you are avoiding the issues. I'm trying to get a straight answer out of you or anyone else concerning my inquiry about homosexuality and islam.
Is the reading the only way to morality?
It most certainly is not.
A person could make the reading fit whatever they wanted it to given the right circumstances,eg follow allah and the prophet meaning follow the sunnah.
Indeed. Where is this leading us when I only want to discuss the position of the reading on homosexuality?
I am finding this obsession for evidence from the quran similiar to 'we need hadith to understand islam'.
We're discussing it according to the reading. The influx of new members is related to little use of the reading when it comes to discussiong the issues of the ummah.
What is the role of our minds,our experiences,our consciences?
Why the tangent?
is this quran an idol?
To some it may be.
How do i know to put food in my mouth from the quran?
You do not.
Such a question by you begs me to ask what you believe the purpose of the reading is for because it seems you have little or no clue.
Dont you think searching for everything in the quran(rather than some basic principles) is a little like blind following of a 1400 year old collection of facts?
I'm not talking about searching for everything in the reading. You are blowing things out of proportion and speaking out of context.
Where is the rocket science,tv,test-tube babies etc,etc. in the quran?(Explicitly not in obscure form)
I ask again what you believe is the purpose of the reading?
Joe
P.S. I know many of you are new to the ideology of, for lack of a better word/s "Quran Alone" and are ignorant on many matters pertaining to the reading. There has been a huge influx of such posters. Enquirer the purpose of Free-Minds and what it is about is clear on the front page of the site. I encourage you and all others to take a look.
This website has been created for all people who have a desire to allow God into their lives and follow His path alone...
This website invites all people of various beliefs (Sunni, Shia, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Bahai, Agnostic, Humanist, and even Atheists) to come and examine for themselves the system of Submission/Islam which is based on God Alone.
Many of you may outwardly be content with your current faith or that which you inherited from your parents and community...but to some out there, there will always be a tugging at the back of their mind that 'there is something more', and that 'some things don't always make sense'...
If you are one of those people, then open your eyes, put on your thinking cap, and welcome to an open examination of the system of Submission/Islam which very few know about... <excerpt>
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Hi Nabi,
This is a quranic forum. Understand?
I thought this was 'God alone'' forum. Is it Quran alone?
Peace!
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The example of the American boy is one of biological sex, not sexuality.
You miss the point. Some have said children can be conditioned to be homosexuals. This case proves that even when you raise a boy as a girl and conditoned the boy to be a girl even with hormone supplements, can't make a boy into girl. Research has shown that homosexuality is rooted in the brain-wiring.
Actually homosexuality is not evident in the animal kingdom.
http//www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3008
Ok, human beings are different than animals, I think that we can all agree to that. But answer these questions
1)why do two women who are really close often fall into synch with their menstrual cycle?
- why do women who are close tend to get preganant around the same time?
Yes we have become exceptionally different species but we have evolved from the Animal World.
How do you know that sex is more pleasureable for human beings?
We don't have a mating season wink
Ok, we can have orgasms in our sleeps, but the point of having a sexual orgasm is purely to make reproduction more efficient.
Yes that is true. But the primary use of sex is not for reproduction anymore. We have reached a stage in our development as a species where we have control over our reproduction and therefore primary use of sex is now for pleasure.
I disagree. Beauty has it's own standard and is nothing to do with reproduction.
Please give an example of this.
Angelina Jolie -)
You seem to rely on the notion of "now" but the purpose of sex must be true now as it was before the advent of condoms and BC pills.
The purpose of sex does not change just b/c we invent ways to get around the consequence.But it has. We are living in an Anti-Darwinian World.
For example, the purpose of food is to nourish our bodies.
Just b/c food happens to be delicious does not erase the sheer purpose of nourishing our bodies. The fact that it tastes good only facilitates the nourishment we gain since we are more likely to continue eating if we enjoy the taste.Incorrect analogy. Without food we die. But we can go without sex for years wink
Regards,
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Lotetree,
It seems that your power to reason is borderline comatoseYou miss the point. Some have said children can be conditioned to be homosexuals. This case proves that even when you raise a boy as a girl and conditoned the boy to be a girl even with hormone supplements, can't make a boy into girl. Research has shown that homosexuality is rooted in the brain-wiring.
It is you who is missing the point. Being conditioned to be a boy or a girl has nothing to do with sexual preference. I can be a girl and enjoy sleeping with men or I can be a girl who enjoys sleeping with women. I can also be a girl who does not enjoy sex at all.
http//www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3008
Granted, but why does the article not go in more detail about how the study was actually conducted. I searched a bit for more on this topic and found a blurb
It should be noted however that some view this study to be flawed in that the determination of homosexuality within the sheep, (sample population of twenty-seven for the study), was to have animals who were unable to mount female ewes placed in a cage with two stanchioned males and two unstanchioned females (that is, the males could not move or struggle while the females could). Given the aggressive nature of the sheep copulation, the uneven treatment of males and females, many see this as simply evidence that the sheep in question were unable to be aggressive enough to mount females. Some say that the results were situational sexuality, unlike the bonds seen in human homosexuality. However the physical brain anatomy of the rams that preferred males were different..."The dense cluster of neurons that comprise the oSDN express cytochrome P450 aromatase. Aromatase mRNA levels in the oSDN were significantly greater in female-oriented rams than in ewes, whereas male-oriented rams exhibited intermediate levels of expression." These results suggest that "...naturally occurring variations in sexual partner preferences may be related to differences in brain anatomy and its capacity for estrogen synthesis." Read the abstract of the study. As noted previously, given the potential unagressiveness of the male population in question, the differing aromatase levels may also have been evidence of aggression levels, not sexuality. The results of this study have not been confirmed by others.
So, it seems that the "gay" rams are simply the less aggressive ones, and their apparent brain chemistry only demonstrates this lack of aggression as opposed to their homosexuality. Once again, animals have seasons and it seems that less aggressive males have to settle with male to male copulating since they cannot secure a female with whom to breed.Yes that is true. But the primary use of sex is not for reproduction anymore. We have reached a stage in our development as a species where we have control over our reproduction and therefore primary use of sex is now for pleasure.
Why don't you go tell that to a woman who finds out that she's pregnant though she used a condom? These measures are only so protective against pregnancy. Also, we do not have control going the other way either. There is no 100% guaranteed way to get pregnant, regardless of in-vitro fertilization.
Angelina Jolie
I sense that it is a waste of time to even bother replying to you. Why is Angelina Jolie attractive to the general male population. Polls have been taken and it is shown that men would rather have sex with her than marry her. Why is this? Perhaps it is b/c she "oozes" sex from her wise eyes, full lips, full breasts, curvy hips...all things that scream fertility. And guess what...she's pregnant!
Incorrect analogy. Without food we die. But we can go without sex for years
My point was not the necessity of the act but the purpose of the act. It is obviously pointless to talk to you, as usual. You have made up your mind that we are anti-darwinian or some other nonsense and you'll stick to it. Yes, the West is the bastion of all that is good and moral. I hope that works for you.
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Hi Nabi,
Yes it is both.
I dont know how ur definition of Quran alone goes.
Does that mean throwing understanding, reasoning, logic, thinking, analysing stuff & gaining knowledge to realise truth/reality into the drain?
And I moreover thought this is no seperate sect.... Now is this one? And are u defining the norms of it?
If it is so, propably u should suggest to Layth to make it clear in the forum rules or so, that only words from Quran should be discussed for their meaning and nothing beyond.roll
Peace!
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Lotetree,
It seems that your power to reason is borderline comatoseIs that to show yours isn't ichephren?
Your exemplery reasoning equated the need food for survival with Sex! -)
and others thought that reasoning was "fantastic" winkIt is you who is missing the point. Being conditioned to be a boy or a girl has nothing to do with sexual preference.
No. I am afraid you are. The question was that children can be influenced to be homosexual. This case shows that it can never be the case no matter how much you condition a child. Their Brain-Wiring will determine ultimately their Sexuality.
I can be a girl who enjoys sleeping with women. I can also be a girl who does not enjoy sex at all.
Enjoying sex is not the question. There are many hetrosexuals who don't enjoy sex. There are also homosexual who don't enjoy sex. The question is homosexuality seemed to be rooted in the Brain-Wiring.
http//www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3008
Granted, but why does the article not go in more detail about how the study was actually conducted.
I did not write the Article. And it is a scientific paper. The scientific method will determines it's validity. That is how science works.
These measures are only so protective against pregnancy. Also, we do not have control going the other way either. There is no 100% guaranteed way to get pregnant, regardless of in-vitro fertilization.
The discussion is not about best method of contraceptives or invitro fertilisation.
Angelina Jolie
I sense that it is a waste of time to even bother replying to you.
Why? you as women - are you jealous of Angelina's beauty wink -)
Why is Angelina Jolie attractive to the general male population. Polls have been taken and it is shown that men would rather have sex with her than marry her.
The marriage point was not even in the question. But she is beautiful whether a man wants to marry her not wink
Why is this?
Because she is beautiful wink
Perhaps it is b/c she "oozes" sex from her wise eyes, full lips, full breasts, curvy hips...all things that scream fertility.
Yes, all these things but Angelina Jolie is beautiful wink
And guess what...she's pregnant!
And guess what - she chose to get pregnant wink
Incorrect analogy. Without food we die. But we can go without sex for years
My point was not the necessity of the act but the purpose of the act.
Your analogy is incorrect. Please don't pursue it. Let it go.
It is obviously pointless to talk to you, as usual.
I thought it was quite useful for me to talk to you to contrast your views. If you see that as pointless then I am unable to do anything about it except to offer apologies if I have upset you.
You have made up your mind that we are anti-darwinian or some other nonsense and you'll stick to it.
If it was nonsense then it would not have upset you that much but I guess it is not nonsense and thats why perhaps you are upset wink
Yes, the West is the bastion of all that is good and moral. I hope that works for you.
I see. You are biased aswell. You talk of reason and yet you say the above.
What can I say?
Shanti Shanti Shanti
Regards,