Islamic Calendar Article

JHamza

Salaam all!
I started out liking this idea about the calendar,but the more I Read the replies Im against it.......

Quran says---12 months,correct?,with no mention of a intercalery month,to add one would be to add to what Allah has stated,and the Quran is Complete..
There is to much contraversy as to when to begin the yr,if its a certain time or date then the Quran has to say so,for Allah has left nothing out.Therefore if its not mentioned then there is no rule to set the exact date.If we try to then that would be saying Allah left something out that is relevent.

So by reason there is no reason to accept another way besides what is generally accepted..So No real need for change on this subject,imo...

JHamza

No Answer???? roll

Elke

Peace Hamza,

i don't know if you've read the whole threads. There is a lot of stuff to ingest and for sure a lot of controversy. But , even though fasting with the rest of the "muslim" world might be ok, the calendar is purely manmade and for sure not one initiated in the times of the prophet, but after his death, by Kalif Omar.

lk

JHamza

Peace Hamza,

i don't know if you've read the whole threads. There is a lot of stuff to ingest and for sure a lot of controversy. But , even though fasting with the rest of the "muslim" world might be ok, the calendar is purely manmade and for sure not one initiated in the times of the prophet, but after his death, by Kalif Omar.

lk

Peace Elke,
Yes I read the entire thread and just got through reading the article on FM/PM site again,and most of it seems reasonable,but The Sufi made some better arguments for the the beginning of Muharam and when Ramadan is..Because Ramadan suggests an autumn month like the FM/PM article says,therfore it makes since that Ramadan would fall in Nov/Dec..since Winter doesnt begin until Dec 21st in the Northern Hemisphere.Beginning the yr in Autumn like the article says doesnt make since based on the fact that would put Ramadan in Apr-May in the spring and not autumn like the name Ramadan implies..
So I agree with the view that if the calendar is to be a fixed one then the new year would began at the spring equinox at the same time that Allah led the Isralites out of Egypt.And Ramadan(an autumn month) would fall in Nov-Dec.,the last month of Autumn.

JHamza

Never Mind roll .

The_Sufi

Preocupation with when the intercalary month should occur is something the Quran seems to be against. The year divides very naturally into 4 equal quarters with the two equinoxes and two solstices. Even without the sun and the moon these quaters exist because they are stellar phenomena. There are 12 moths in Allah(SWT)'s reckoning, so each quater must naturally have 3 months. We are not told that new moons are for the beginnings of the months, but that the new moons are for the beginnings of festivals (in the 12 months). So the new moon of the last third of the autumn quater (21 Sept-21Dec) whether it be near the beginning of that last third, or near the end, was clearly when Ramadan began, every year until the death of Muhammad (SAW).

JHamza

I just read on here http//www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/The%20Islamic%20Jewish%20Calendar.pdf that Ramadan means heat,if thats true then Ramadan means the month of heat not autumn and falls in line with it being in Apr/May and Muharram being in Aug/Sept corresponding with the Hebrew New Year of Rosh Hashanna.
? ? ?

And what about

"And who would abandon the creed of Abraham except one who fools himself? We have selected him in this world, and in the Hereafter he is of the righteous." (2130)

Its a well known fact that Abraham kept the Hebrew calendar and Muhammad adopted Ros e Ashura(Yom Kippur) which falls in the Hebrew month of Tishri(Sept/Oct),so Muharram should be the same as Tishri.

So the Islamic year of 1427 would begin on Sept 22nd this yr the same day that the Hebrew festival of Rosh Hashana is on..

The_Sufi

Fine, except it goes against the historical fact that Ramadaan coincided with Chislev in the last year that The Prophet (PBUH) was alive when he declared the absence of the intercaliary month. Thus up until this year (632) Ramadaan would have naturally coincided with Chislev every year.

BTW Chislev is also the month of burning for the festival of lights.

JHamza

Fine, except it goes against the historical fact that Ramadaan coincided with Chislev in the last year that The Prophet (PBUH) was alive when he declared the absence of the intercaliary month. Thus up until this year (632) Ramadaan would have naturally coincided with Chislev every year.

BTW Chislev is also the month of burning for the festival of lights.

I see what your saying but didnt Muhammad adopt Ashura which falls on Muharram 10,and the yr that he adopted it was the same date as the Jewish Yom Kippur which always falls on the 10th day of the Jewish month of Tishri (usually late September or early October)?This would place Muharram in Sept/Oct not Mar/Apr,which Muharram would fall if Ramadan is in Nov/Dec...which Chislev always falls????

JHamza

Maybe Im missing something but where in the Quran does it say we have to use lunar timeing to determine months,I know the Hebrews did it that way but,no where in the Judeo Scriptures that I can recall does it say they should determine months by the new moon.It does say that the sun and moon and stars where created for signs of the seasons and years though..
What Im asking is where in the Quran does it specifically say to determine months by the moon alone?

It does say that we should use the Sun and the Moon..

"And We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day to see-in, that you may seek bounty from your Lord,and that you may know the number of the years and the count. And everything We have detailed completely." (1712)

Here's Khalifa's version

We rendered the night and the day two signs. We made the night dark, and the day lighted, that you may seek provisions from your Lord therein. This also establishes for you a timing system, and the means of calculation. We thus explain everything in detail.

So we are to use the sun and the moon to determine the yrs.

By using the sun and the moon as our guides,we would have a calendar with 12 months and have no need for an extra month like the Jews have encountered..But we might still have to add an extra day every four yrs to one of the months..

Or we could simply begin yrs at the fall equinox and have some months having 31 days and some months having 30 days..You would have a 365 calendar every yr...then if for some reason we need to add or remove an extra day in the future that I may have over looked then it can be done to one of the months..Unless theres a Surah that says we have to begin months on the new moon or a moon...and have 30 & 29 days.

2189 says They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage

1025 says He it is Who appointed the sun a splendour and the moon a light, and measured for her stages, that ye might know the number of the years, and the reckoning. Allah created not (all) that save in truth. He detaileth the revelations for people who have knowledge

937 speaks of postponing a sacred/prohibited month;Verily the transposing (of a prohibited month) is an addition to Unbelief the Unbelievers are led to wrong thereby for they make it lawful one year, and forbidden another year, in order to adjust the number of months forbidden by God and make such forbidden ones lawful. The evil of their course seems pleasing to them. But God guideth not those who reject Faith.

Nothing about the starting of months on the new moon..not unless you read into it what you wish..

Muharram; 31
Safar;30
Rabi`a I/Rabi al-Awal;30
Rabi`a II/Rabi al-Thanni;31
Jumada I/Jumada al-Awal;30
Jumada II/Jumada al-Thanni;31
Rajab al Murajjab;30
Sha`ban;30
Ramadan;31
Shawwal al-Mukarram;30
Dhul al Qida;31
Dhul Hijja;30

The_Sufi

But why turn ones back on history?

Fact in 632 Ramadaan coincided with Chislev.
Fact 632 was the year people (?mis)understood Muhammad (PBUH) to say there should be only 12 lunar months in the year.
Fact Ramadaan would have coincided with Chisleve every year prior to this pronouncement.
Fact 6 years after the death ofr Muhammad (PBUH) Umar was petittioned to do something about the islamic calendar and there were two systems of calculating the months in place. in one of the systems Shabban was two months later than in the other system.

Since these are the inescapable facts, any explanation has to deal satisfactorily with these facts. It is very easy to invent an explanation which disregards a certain fact, but then the door is left wide open to any other explanation no matter how bizzare.

JHamza

But why turn ones back on history?

Fact in 632 Ramadaan coincided with Chislev.
Fact 632 was the year people (?mis)understood Muhammad (PBUH) to say there should be only 12 lunar months in the year.
Fact Ramadaan would have coincided with Chisleve every year prior to this pronouncement.
Fact 6 years after the death ofr Muhammad (PBUH) Umar was petittioned to do something about the islamic calendar and there were two systems of calculating the months in place. in one of the systems Shabban was two months later than in the other system.

Since these are the inescapable facts, any explanation has to deal satisfactorily with these facts. It is very easy to invent an explanation which disregards a certain fact, but then the door is left wide open to any other explanation no matter how bizzare.

Does it say this in any historical records besides Hadith or Is it in the Quran?

And what about Surah 936????

Khalifa
The count of months, as far as GOD is concerned, is twelve. This has been GOD's law, since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred. This is the perfect religion; you shall not wrong your souls (by fighting) during the Sacred Months. However, you may declare all-out war against the idol worshipers (even during the Sacred Months), when they declare all-out war against you, and know that GOD is on the side of the righteous.
Yusuf Ali
The number of months in the sight of God is twelve (in a year)- so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein, and fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that God is with those who restrain themselves.
Pickthal
Lo! the number of the months with Allah is twelve months by Allah's ordinance in the day that He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred that is the right religion. So wrong not yourselves in them. And wage war on all of the idolaters as they are waging war on all of you. And know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
Shakir
Surely the number of months with Allah is twelve months in Allah's ordinance since the day when He created the heavens and the earth, of these four being sacred; that is the right reckoning; therefore be not unjust to yourselves regarding them, and fight the polytheists all together as they fight you all together; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
Sher Ali
The number of months with Allah is twelve months by Allah's ordinance since the day when HE created the heavens and the earth. Of these four are sacred. That is the right religion. So wrong not yourselves therein. And fight the idolaters all together; and know that Allah is with those who fear HIM.
"Progressive Muslims"
The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set-up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.

Im not saying you are wrong and I am correct,Im just trying to put the peices together and understand it...

Peace!

zenje

Peace Sufi,

Since these are the inescapable facts
How are these facts again?... let alone inescapable ones? ?

That is from the news of the unseen that We inspire to you. You were not amongst them when they arranged their plan and were scheming.

JHamza

Never mind

unknownuser

Salaamun alaikum all,

What The Sufi claims are "FACTS" are not necessarily facts. According to the excellent research done by Ayman, there is archeological and historical evidence that Prophet Muhammad was born around 550 AD instead of 570 AD and that pushes his death back by many years. Please see the following link for details

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3875

Some excerpts

Here is a very interesting quote from Jacob's manuscripts that has significant implications on the traditional Sunni accounts

"All we have regarding Haggar (Islam) are the notices that 'Muhammad (Mhmt) went down for trade to the lands of Palestine, Arabia and Syrian Phoenicia,' that 'the kingdom of the Arabians (Arbaye), those whom we call Tayyaye, began when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year' (620-21CE), and that 'the Tayyaye began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine.'"

What is interesting here is that Jacob's dating of the events pushes back the date of the beginning of Arab conquests by at least 12 years. According to the traditional accounts, in the year 620CE Islam was still in its infancy and the prophet still hasn't even emigrated from so-called Makkah. According the traditions, the Muslim kingship over Arabia wasn't even established until 632CE and the raids on the Romans in Palestine didn't begin until afterwards. The discrepancy in the dates between the hearsay-based traditions and the archeological manuscript-based eye witness accounts places serious doubts over the entire traditional history of events.

Traditionalists contend that the prophet was born in the year of Abraha's expedition to Arabia. The year of Abraha's expedition as provided on the Sabaic inscription of Abraha translates into about 550CE. This is 20 years before the traditional 570CE birth date of the prophet. As we saw above, the dates we get from Jacob of Edessa are at least 12 years prior to traditional accounts. I think that given the evidence, we can reasonably say that the prophet lived at least 12-20 years prior to when traditionalists claim he lived. This may indicate that the present so-called Islamic calendar is based on an event that took place after the death of the prophet.

So the so called "FACTS" in The Sufi's post are not really facts at all and in no way prove that Ramadhan always coincided with Chislev in the time of Prophet Muhammad.

JHamza

Is there any further proofs for http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/calendars.htm this article or for this http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm ?

Both cant be correct...

unknownuser

Salaamun alaikum JHamza,

Allah in Al-Qur'aan recommends clear cut cosmic phenomenon for timing of events rather than a particular calendar.

Ayman's article is more accurate and makes scientific and logical sense. For a debate on that topic with convincing and logical answers check out the following link and follow the discussion to the end

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2757

Hope that helps,

Tanveer

JHamza

Salaamun alaikum JHamza,

Allah in Al-Qur'aan recommends clear cut cosmic phenomenon for timing of events rather than a particular calendar.

Ayman's article is more accurate and makes scientific and logical sense. For a debate on that topic with convincing and logical answers check out the following link and follow the discussion to the end

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2757

Hope that helps,

Tanveer

Peace Tanveer,
Ive read the article but Im still not 100% convinced that they have the correct meaning for shar(sp?) and even if the article is correct about it being the full moon of scorching heat,which I am aware is the correct meaning of ramadhan..theres still no reason to abandon a calendar,the Quran states 12 months in a yr,it mentions fasting during a specific month all implying a calendar system.
Something like thisNoteI have the equivilent Jewish months first just as a comparison and to show to similarities.This calendar outline is for secular use,while the religous dates"The Fast,Pilgrimage and restrictions" can be observed based on Quranic and scientic proof.)

Tishri(Sp/Oc) *Dhul Hijja(same as the Jewish month with the feast of Tabernacles - a pilgrimage festival)
Heshvan (Oc/No) Muharram
Kislev (No/De) Safar
Tevet (De/Ja) Rabi al awal
Shevat (Ja/Fe) Rabi al thani
Adar (Fe/Mr) Jumada al awal(First Spring)
Nisan (Mr/Ap) Jumada al thani(Second Spring)
Iyar (Ap/My) Rajab al Murajjab
Sivan (My/Jn) Sha'ban(same name as the Hebrew)
Tammuz (Jn/Ju) *Ramadan(moon of scorching heat)
Av (Ju/Au) *Shawwal al Mukarram
Elul(Au/Sp) *Dhul al Qida

Based on name comparisons,timing of ramadan,and meanings of Arab months.
*Restricted months of Quran. Pilgrimage would occur in these months beginning on the full moon and last 3 days.
Full Moon of Scorching Heat and the 10 day Fast would fall in late Ramadan or Early Shawwal al Mukkaram,based on when the full moon after the summer solstice occurs.

unknownuser

Salaamun aaikum brother JHamza,

Al-Qur'aan does not state that there are 12 months in a year but states that the COUNT of shahr is 12, meaning you count only 12 full moons. If it means months then how do you know how many days are in a month according to The God ? If it is 30 days then there are not 12 months in a year but 12 months and five days and The God would have said "12 months AND five days" or would have said "12 months and 1/6" and that would have made clear the number of days in a month.

However, shahr does not mean month but means full moon, and then you would have a logical and clear translation meaning that THE COUNT of full moons is 12, and not the absolute NUMBER of shahr. The "full moon" translation gives you a precise and accurate and logical way of timing. "month" would be vague and inaccurate as we will not know how many days in a month according to Al-Qur'aan.

Hope that helps,

Peace,

Tanveer

JHamza

Okay in the article it states that the correct translation is crescent moons but it also says it can mean the start or the ending of the crescent,which is it? I think its the beginning if it really means crescent.

They ask thee concerning the crescent moons. Say They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back It is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors And fear Allah That ye may prosper.....

In to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men; that would be a secular calendar based on the siteing of the crescent moon..
Thats what I am trying to figure out a correct calendar for people based on the Quran...

I cant see how its referring to 12 full moons in 936 instead of 12 months...Because this contrdicts the fact that sometimes theres 13 full moons and not 12...

The count of the full-moons with The God is twelve full-moons in The God's book the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct obligation; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set-up partners collectively as they fight you collectively and know that The God is with the forethoughtful.
The translations below make better since compared to the fact that we have 13 full moons sometimes while the above translation contradicts this fact.

The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year)- so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein, and fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.

The count of months, as far as GOD is concerned, is twelve. This has been GOD's law, since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred. This is the perfect religion; you shall not wrong your souls (by fighting) during the Sacred Months. However, you may declare all-out war against the idol worshipers (even during the Sacred Months), when they declare all-out war against you, and know that GOD is on the side of the righteous.