are you and me going to heaven?
-
Salaam peace. I have stated this similiar point before.This concept of all-knowing god, means god has no free-will.
Nazz,your points are circular(relying on concept of god to prove god).
Also if you said god has the power to not be creator,how do you know he hasnt limited or delegated his power?
ps quote;' god enjoys the benefits that his station allows him-the command of sub-ordinates to do his bidding? shock (does that include satan?) Any responsibility or free-will for the human?
Peace all. -
Peace be upon all,
I would like to jump in to make some observations/questions
1- Is anyone capable of creating complete nothigness, void of anything? Besides the god the creator, I don't think anybody can.
2- The god IS. The god exists, unlike any other thing that exists. Everything degrades with time; everything is created, and everything has limits, even time.
3- The god is, unchanging, constant. He is. I believe that to create something that is changing, from his point of view, he would have to create nothingness. This concept is like when you have some very hot iron (full of energy), you need something cold (with less energy) to create a difference of potential and thus have a flow of energy, from hot to cold.
In the same manner, since the god is (only him exists for real, everything else is ephemera), nothingness had to be created to allow "the creation" to exist, and thus having a flow of energy.I hope I am making sense.
4- The theory saying that everything is created from nothing is "half true". It is more accurate to say that everything is created through a singularity which is "nothingness" created by the god the creator the ever-existing.
5- Through nothingness, and with a fixed established set of laws (which constitut "the ultimate reading", the reading carved in the rock, unchangeable, as per my understanding of the scripture), the creation was unfolded with the power of the god.
And the god knows best. Please correct any nonsense.
-
Hello All
thos e ignornat who say non sense about Allah, are nothing but Satan followers, here is the verses
168- O men! eat the lawful and good things out of what is in the earth, and do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan; surely he is your open enemy.
169- He only enjoins you evil and indecency, and that you may speak against Allah what you do not know.
(16
(169)this is revolting by those igmnornat who thinks they can know what Allah is doing, lol oh yeh now we know well waht Satan is doing
more v erses to come that warn us NOT TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT ALLAH THAT WE DON'T KNOW
-
Howdy Peace, peace, lol
How could God have chosen to create nothing if he is all knowing? Being All knowing implies that God must know beforehand all of his actions, and therefore, he had no choice in creating everything.
This is a classic philosophical argument which I have previously delved into only superficially. One (of several) problems here is that you are trying to encompass God within our time-space dimension and within our flawed understanding of creation, when God can not be encompassed nor comprehended. However, for argument's sake, taking a far less orthodox stance I propose the following; (this will be a mouthful, but plausible)idea Due to God's Omnipotence, despite His 'requirement' to create as a result of His All-knowingness, He is able to 'retract' or nullify any and all of His own 'decisions' and or knowledge AND actions at ANY time concerning everything... breathe... In short, He has the power to 'override' any and all 'restrictions' that by virtue of His Omnipotence/Omniscience He would otherwise be obliged to adhere to. idea
By the way your above argument is not unlike the "unmovable rock" problem, whereby one asks if God could create a rock that even He couldn't move.
Cheers.
-
HERE IS THE WARNING FOR THOSE IGNORIANT WHO SAY NON SENSE ABOUT ALLAH
Say My Lord has only prohibited indecencies, those of them that are apparent as well as those that are concealed, and sin and rebellion without justice, and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down any authority, and that you say against Allah what you do not know.
(33)
I believe they better shut up unless they can prove the non sense they say about Allah, however they may continue their ignornat if they wish, they are only securing their well earned seat in Hell
-
Here is an example to what the ignornat may say about Allah without any proof
They say Allah has taken a son (to Himself)! Glory be to Him He is the Self-sufficient His is what is in the heavens and what is in the earth; you have no authority for this; do you say against Allah what you do not know?
(6
-
I wonder why those ignorant say things about Allah without any knwledge nor evidences?
Allah also wondered
Behold! you are they who disputed about that of which you had knowledge; why then do you dispute about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows while you do not know.
(66)
Allah summed it up beautifully "And Allah knows while you do not know. "
-
Here is another warning not to invent similitudes for Allah because He knows and we don?t know
Invent not similitudes for Allah for Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
(74)
Again was summed up beautifully "for Allah knoweth, and ye know not. "
Do you need more verses guys, I have plenty about the same subject of the ignornat humans who think they know a lot about Allah
Peace
-
G'day enquirer,
Nazz, your points are circular(relying on concept of god to prove god).
Yes, absolutely. Anselm's Ontological argument, using notions of the Necessary BeingNorman Malcolm is a contemporary advocate for Anselm?s Ontological argument. He says
"The existence of a necessary Being can either be necessary (it cannot not exist), impossible (it cannot exist), or possible (it may or may not exist). Malcolm stated that since no one has shown the concept of a necessary Being to be contradictory (logically impossible), then the existence of a necessary Being is possible. If it is possible for a necessary Being to exist, then it must exist. It is a contradiction to say that a being which cannot not exist (a necessary Being) may or may not exist. Therefore, a necessary being must exist."This ties in beautifully of course, with my earlier point on the logical necessity of a beginning point for creation.
Also if you said god has the power to not be creator,how do you know he hasnt limited or delegated his power?
I don't. Although he has given some of His creations certain powers. But I don't see the relevance of this.ps quote;' god enjoys the benefits that his station allows him-the command of sub-ordinates to do his bidding? shock (does that include satan?) Any responsibility or free-will for the human?
Peace all.
I don't understand your question, could you be a little clearer please?Cheers
-
peace nazz and someone,and all. Nazz if you analyse what you said it implies a dependence on time and situation(context) for god.It also involves god changing his mind? All these are limitations and refute the idea of an all-powerful god.
Someone;i believe if some people got to heaven(the heaven defined as a place, )and they could have anything they wanted,they would want to be god. shock But this is simply an unobtainable desire,as there is no all-powerful god, there are an infinite number of limited gods only.
Peace all. -
Nazz if you analyse what you said it implies a dependence on time and situation(context) for god.It also involves god changing his mind?
It most probably does. But I conceded this before I began?it was necessary to "play ball" with your argument which is flawed for exactly the same reasons. winkthere is no all-powerful god, there are an infinite number of limited gods only.
I'd be most interested to read your opinions and evidence proving this theory, at very least supporting it.Cheers
-
peace nazz and all. One all-powerful,all-knowing creator theory(monotheism) has too many flaws in it for me personally. I define a god as anything which posesses will,life,power-but all in a limited sense.In this definition everything that exists is a god-;infinitheism. No one one god can totally dominate another,and they can only influence other gods partially.
Nothing is created,everything has always existed and always will. Suffering is caused by innapropriate influence of one god on another(or trying to dominate another against their will). When gods join together(for relative peace)willingly a peaceful situation can occur. When gods conspire(for relative suffering)a stressful situation can occur. The will or soul(or god) is on an eternal cycle of reincarnation,birth and death.(death is a journey to another dimension or a new body,or a relative sleep).
No soul(or god or will or life)can be destroyed or created,only changed to a different form.(same as the conservation of energy; matter cannot be created or destroyed,but can only change form.)
Uniqueness and infinite diversity.
no one individual god can know everything(infinity) or know nothing. Infinity is a metaphor for a number you cannot count,and nothing is a metaphor for the abscence of something you can perceive.(in other words everyone knows something.) A cosmic democracy. D
peace all. -
Peace
No one one god can totally dominate another,and they can only influence other gods partially.
Interesting how such a cohesion came into being despite the conditions you have mentioned in the above statement. Please describe the logic therein.
everything has always existed and always will
Please detail this for I have known certain Dodos and pigeons to be no longer among us.
Joe
-
Peace be unto you Nazz,
Thanks for clarifying this problem for me, it's been in the back of my mind for a while after reading an atheist site. What you're saying makes sense to me, God has the power to change any decision. It does seem a lot like that whole "can God create a rock even he can't pickup problem"?, and I guess this lies outside our logic as humans. Thanks for the help. -
Peace nabi and all. Do you see australia at the moment? no,beacuse it is out of your view. Well the dodo and pigeons may be out of our view.
In another dimension.
And who said cohesion? Some experiences are cohesive and some are chaotic.(i stated this principle in my previous post.) Suffering is caused by wills colliding or trying to dominate.(cohesion by relative cooperation of wills.)
peace all. -
Peace nabi. Are you suggesting we have cohesion in the world because of monotheism? A lot of people see a lot of the opposite as well.( relative disorder and suffering),how does one perfect,absolute creator theory explain this?(or do we blame it on satan,cant god control him?)
Peace all. -
Peace
In another dimension.
Please provide your evidence.
And who said cohesion?
You did.
When gods join together(for relative peace)willingly a peaceful situation can occur. When gods conspire(for relative suffering)a stressful situation can occur.
That is cohesion. If you do not know the meaning of the word then please look in a dictionary.
Still you did not explain the logic of your theory to me as I asked. How does such a cohesion happen. Was it always there according to you? What makes the gods come into cohesion? What provides the means for such cohesion to take place?
Joe