You are all Kafirs (hehe seriously though we need to end thi
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Hi Warda,
Are you sure about that? Do the Sikhs say the same? This is very interesting and I'd like to know more about it. I thought that the Sikhs are in Sri Lanka only ....no?
Sikhs are in srilanka? Where did u get that from? )
Sikhism is mainly a religion from northern indian subcontinent.(their founder Guru nanak was born near lahore, pakistan)
Most of the sikhs are from Punjab in northern India. And some have migrated all over the world.Peace!
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Hi tariqmahmood87,
welcome to the forum!
Peace!
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Peace Tariq
Salam Elena,
The small Sikh community in Argentina was shocking however In North America I have never seen a Sikh who wasn't Punjabi and I highly doubt that any White American would convert to Sikhism.
even if you doubt it, they exist.The religion centers aroung ornate rituals and other nonsense. It is even more ridiculous then a non Shia converting to Shiaism.
how unrespectful shockhttp//www.mrsikhnet.com/hello/1328287/700/IMG_6052-2005.12.09-20.14.21.jpg
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Why would the creator of the world send revealations to only one ethnic group? It isn't logical.
Well, doesn't God say in the Qur'an that he will send messengers to all the peoples of the world. So aren't you slightly contradicting the Qur'an here?
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may peace be upon you tariq 'bhai',
one of the primary focuses of this website is to STOP FOLLOWING TRADITIONS.... what part of the quran says that you have to salaam the prophet so it reaches his grave and to believe that HE IS STILL ALIVE...
i think that is SHIRK?now, i also noticed everybody still holds one tradition and it is a very good one which hasn't change and the sunnis and shia'a and us do it as well which is "peace greetings" and a reply.... i did find support for it in the quran D
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salaam brothers and sisters who are reading this forum...,
we have to understand that everyone thinks differently and EVERYTHING IN THIS UNIVESE HAS A PURPOSE... as i recall the religion sikhism was created in response to "the fight between hindus and muslims" they wanted to SEEK A PATH BETWEEN THEMSELVES and i belive that one of the 10 gurus of sikhism(kabir, i think) was a muslim shock well, the wanted to call people to PEACE.... i believe all religions form for the same causes except under different circumstances....
i read some hadith about mohammed.... and i found out that he used to MEDITATE in a cave to think about the WHYS AND HOWS of social violence... he used to have a lot of visions and headaches just thinking.... and he told all of his worries about society and order of the chaotic arabic world.. or at least his surroundings and i think god was mentally preparing himself for THE SCRIPTURE.....
my point is sikhism and islam formed to end violence
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The only thing that is however is that word per word line per line the Quran has remained unchanged and universally accepted.
Peace,
You really should be a bit informed about the Qur'an. Here is something for you to look at http//answering-islam.org.uk/Green/seven.htm#compare (look at the part with the big arabic letters)
Now, this doesn't detract from the message, but does have implications for certain specific aspects of the Qur'an.
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Clauratina are you seriously going to have me believe such a website. The website is one that is trying to convert Muslims from Islam to Christianity. I have read in my textbooks from College and Highschool of how the Quran has remained unchanged to the word. I said that words have been interrpurted differntly they are still the same words just because it might understood differently because of context doesn't mean it is a different word
"These recitations differ in the vocalization (tashkil ?????) of a few words, which in turn gives a complementary meaning to the word in question according to the rules of Arabic grammar. For example, the vocalization of a verb can change its active and passive voice. It can also change its stem formation, implying intensity for example. Vowels may be elongated or shortened, and glottal stops (hamzas) may be added or dropped, according to the respective rules of the particular recitation. For example, the name of archangel Gabriel is pronounced differently in different recitations Jibr?l, Jabr?l, Jibra'?l, and Jibra'il. The name "Qur'?n" is pronounced without the glottal stop (as "Qur?n") in one recitation, and prophet Ibr?h?m's name is pronounced Ibr?h?m in another."*
Language is a tricky thing and the Quran itself says some suras are open to interpertation. The non Kufic script Qurans have the exact same words.
The words being changed would derail from the scaredness of the Quran. How can somebody believe in a religion that has been changed?
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an#The_Qur.27an_for_reading_and_recitation*
I know what the website is about, and I don't support their conclusions, but I do accept their facts, as I have seen explanations of it on many websites, including Islamic ones. So I was just using the website to expose facts. Remember, always judge based on what is said, and not who is saying it.
As for the differences between the versions, yes, the differences do seem to be minor and in now way detract from the message, but that doesn't negate the fact that there are differences in the text.
Another interesting reading about the problem of the stability of the Qur'an can be found here http//www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter8/3.html. It talks of the early compilation of the Qur'an and how once an "official" compilation by Uthman was completed (the version we still have, with minor changes like between Warsh and Hafs versions), all differing version of the Qur'an were BURNED. Is this not proof that there existed other versions of the Qur'an? And if so, why didn't God protect against their creation?
Also, look at some of the early versions of the Qur'an at http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/. You might realize that there is a total absence of any kinds of dots, even those that would separate Ya from Ta from Tha from Ba... now changing these consonants can most certainly change the meaning of a word quite significantly.
So basically we see from the difference of the Warsh and Hafs copies that there are still today minor differences between versions of the Qur'an, despite the fact that all version differing from Uthman's copy were burned. And those that differed with the Uthman copy must have had quite significant differences, since the Uthman copy has no dots... so the differences must have been on at least on the letter level. Because of these facts I can reach no other conclusion than that God promised to protect the immutable laws that he has - his Umm al Kitab. So that which was given to Muhammad is information which is valid forever, because it won't change. This however doesn't mean that someone can't go and corrupt the Qur'an and change around a few letters, either by simple human error, or with malicious intent.
However, the compilation of the Qur'an is definitely much more reliable than the Torah or the Bible, where there is clear evidence of significant human induced changes. -
Clauritina your knowledge of the arabic language is limited. Those dots are pronounciation marks and they are from the Kufic script. You fail to understand the point I was making. The words are the same put the context can be interpertted differently because of different pronounciation, that is some words stressed over others. The Kufic script in Algeria is different then the Kufic script in Iraq. As for different versions of the Quran in Osmans time that is from the hadiths which were written a couple of hundred years after his death. So why are you putting faith in such nonsense and so determined to believe the actual word of God has been changed? The whole Islamic religion is based on believing the Quran has remainded unchanged to the letter. It would be unlogical to follow a religion that has been changed. I would be weary what other muslims tell you, Hadith followers or these so called "Quran Only" Muslims. I have seen peoples posts on here saying that Mecca didn't exist and that we pray like Zorats. Not only that put look at how Rashad Khalifa tried to say 2 verses don't exist. I am greatly dissappointed in these "Quran Only" muslims they are adovacting the needless revision of such things as prays. It makes no sense why they act they way they are. JUST follow the Quran and where the Quran does have a specific commandment make one up a secular law to deal with and recognize it as being secular, say your prays as everyone else does perform the Hajj like everyone else does and quit trying to destabilize the religion for your own benefit like Rashad Khalifa.
Well, first of all I am in no way a proponent of Rashad Khalifa, so we can set that to rest now. Second of all, I am not trying to destabilize the Muslim world in any way. I fully recognize their right to believe whatever they believe and to praise God however they believe it should be done. However, I also have the right to believe what I believe, and if that means rejecting the authority of the hadith and taking a critical look at what the Qur'an says, then that's my right. Only God in the end has the right to judge whether I have done right or wrong. You, nor any other Muslim has that right. The people on this have a common goal of trying to find for themselves what it is that God wants them to do, and have found the traditional methods unsatisfactory in trying to reach that goal.
Now, I do believe in the Qur'an as it has been passed down. I recognize that while there are differing editions, and that the compilations process was not necessarily perfect, the core belief has still remained intact - perhaps that is what God was saying when he said he would protect it... that errors would happen, but these errors would not change the essential message of the Qur'an. The truth remains that as we can't find contradictions in the Qur'an, it can still be trusted very much. This, however, doesn't mean that there weren't verses that were lost in the process of compiling the Qur'an on paper, or that there haven't been minor changes to the text that don't affect the global meaning of the Qur'an.Another point you obviously didn't look at the links I gave you. Look at your average arabic newspaper text. Do you see any dots? I think you'll find two on top of the qaf and the ta, two below the ya, three above the tha, one below the ba, one above the noon. Unlike the additional pronounciation marks you find in the Qur'an, these dots can change the consonants, and it is these dots that are also absent in the early Qur'ans. In the original Qur'ans, it was IMPOSSIBLE to make a difference between the Ya, the Ta, the Tha, and the Ba. That's why they eventually decided to invent a method of recording them, but this came later.
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Clauratina did you read my post? You seem to what to believe the Quran has been corrupted because undoubtley certain verses seem to sit uneasy with you. I am not saying denying anything you said I understand that the Kufic script was designed to show the pronounciatioin and infact what you are saying is corraberating what I am presenting. The thing is the words are the same the prounounciation and subsequent context may differ but word per word it is the same. God didn't say the Quran would be eternally intereperted the same, It is amazing that the words are the same that is what has captivated me. I strongly adovacte criticaling looking at the Quran, one can interpert rewards of Paradise for the Matyr as incentives for Muhammeds conquest but overall this doesn't add up if you ask me. I disagree with you on people being able to believe what they want. Should people be able to believe and propogate bogus things like ayatollahs and the Dalia LLama being god? I view Islam as the only truly acceptable religion in a world of logic because it promotes not only the strengthing of ones self but it rejects hiearchys. I have noticed that these Quran Only Muslims establish their own hiearchys and organizations and even refer to themselves by sects. This is prohibited. You seem a bit confused if you believe in a religion you believe has undergone changes. Just because something doesn't sit right with you doesn't mean you have to eradicate it or rationalize something you do with religion. That is what the hadiths were for and by adovacting what you are you are acting no different then a person who propagates a hadith justifying something in conflict with or not mentioned in the Quran.
I am mostly in agreement with you... first of all, as I said, I do believe that the MEANING of the Qur'an has stayed the same, despite the small lexical changes that have occurred. So basically what I'm saying is that while the Qur'an isn't letter-for-letter the same throughout the world, that doesn't mean that there has been changes in meaning in any significant manner. As you said, it could be a present tense switched to a past tense or something similar like that, and therefore we must be careful not to accept an interpretation that could only work with one tense if there are other interpretations that could work with both tenses (unless the rest of the Qur'an clearly points us to a specific interpretation). So what I'm saying is that this theory that all written Qur'ans are exactly the same down to the last little dot is bunk. All Qur'ans are essentially the same everywhere and that since the time it was put together in a book, but don't propogate the lie that they are the same down to the last dot, or even the last letter. So we must question ourselves if God actually promised to protect the Qur'an down to the last letter and dot, or if he promised to protect the MEANING of the Qur'an... given the evidence, I'm inclined towards the meaning. And I think having more than one version of the Qur'an (such as Warsh and Hafs) because it is easier to check an interpretation of the Qur'an... to be valid it must make sense according to both versions, which is a bit of a guarantee against errors in interpretation. I think it's therefore unfortunate that such destruction and burning or Qur'ans happened because people seeking power (=Uthman) wanted their version of the Qur'an to be the only official one (yes, it was a time of political instability, and one of the solutions to the problem was to burn the versions of the Qur'an that were not in conformity with Uthman's version. This lead to political stability because he could justify many of his policies using his version that may not have been justifiable according to the other versions - and the rest is history... Sunni history). With more than one version it is actually easier to find the real meaning, because you have more than one indication to what the meaning is you find the meaning that is common to all the versions.