A Miraculous Conspiracy Theory about Mecca
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Peace Elena,
The arguments of grammar given are very easily dismissed. The prepositions in languages are invariably used in a broader way than a simple rule can give.
In English if I said...
"I AM IN SUNSHINE"
There could be a place called 'Sunshine' or I might be actually standing where the sun was shining.two English teachers, native English speakers, say the article is needed to express the second meaning you propose. It has to be "I am in the sunshine"
I say it because maybe it changes the meaning of your example.I think a more relevant example is perhaps "I am walking on sunshine" idiom. But you don't even need an idiom. In english (as well as in Arabic), it is perfectly normal to say "I am in the midst of a disaster" (no definite article).
Just ask anyone how they would translate the above into Classical Arabic. Most likely, they would say
"I am in the midst of a disaster"
"Ana bi-qalb nakbat".No one would complain that like "batn" which literally means "stomach", "qalb" literally means "heart" and not "midst" or "middle". It is also interesting to note that the "wasn"/weight of the noun "nakbat" (disaster) is exactly like that of "makkat" (destruction). So this is further proof that such forms are normally used in this manner and it may only sound strange to some only due to their pre-conditioning.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Aymen
Can you please explain which Masjid Al Haram God is referring in the following verse and which city it was located. My understanding is that it is Mecca and Masjid Al Haram is the present day kaba.
928 O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will God enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for God is All-knowing, All-wise.
Ahmed Baghat your explantaion will also be helpful to understand this verse.
Thank you bro
I will try to put something together sometie today
peace
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Peace All
The Arabic word for Destruction is common and clear, it is called ?Damar? and also ?Taddmira? ? ?, and Allah used it twice in the Quran to tell us that He meant ?Destruction?
And We command "Go ye both, to the people who have rejected our Signs" And those (people) We destroyed with utter destruction.
(36)
And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction.
(16)
Peace be with all
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Sorry brother Ayman
there is nothing as such in the Arabic language called Be Qlab Nakbah
never heard of it and you just made this sentence up
see I can put any words together insanly to make a sentence but that will never change the fact for the professional arabic speakers that I'm insane
cheers
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Peace Claurianta,
An interesting analysis indeed. Now I think the question remains about the locations of Masjid al Haram and Masjid al Aqsa.
The more important question is what does a particular location have anything to do with our obligation to The God.
Does it not make sense that Masjid al Haram would be the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, or perhaps more appopriately the temple of the Jews of the same location, which btw was forbidden (=haram..) to all but the highest rabbis, and even they could only enter on certain conditions.
What is the purpose of the temple of the Jews at that location? Did having it at this location or at any location make them more righteous? Those are more basic questions that need to be answered before people build things on invalid silent assumptions.
Naming it Masjid al Aqsa is quite a great way of masking its original name.
But originally as a common noun "aqsa" means "utmost/farthest". How is any place on earth the "utmost/farthest"? Aren't mosques in the US farthest than the distance between any two mosques in the middle east?
What about the qibla? When was this changed. I know the Great Mosque of Cordoba (finished 170AH) is officially aligned towards Damascus of all places, but considering it's location, it could be aligned toward Jerusalem (difference of a couple degrees), but not Mecca (about 20 degree difference). In which direction are other early mosques aligned? And by early mosques I mean those that can be shown to have been built before 150 AH by non-Islamic sources?
Edit some more info - most ancient Sudanese mosques are oriented directly east instead of northeast towards Mecca (nor Jerusalem) - see http//archnet.org/library/sites/one-site.tcl?site_id=2541
There was ample confusion about direction and most likely many congregational sites didn't even have a specific direction because early mosques are pointing in vastly different directions. In Egypt mosques such as the Fustat faced the winter sunrise. This was the common Christian practice. This was also the common practice of the pagans (this is where Chrisitians got it from). So in the original Fustat, the pre-existing direction was simply followed. This could be a result of two things
- In the absence of a direction, people simply continued with their forefathers' habits.
- The Fustat was built on a converted church and since direction was not important, nobody bothered to change it at the time.
Peace,
Ayman
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The more important question is what does a particular location have anything to do with our obligation to The God.
The only thing we need to know is that GOD,not you,not me,not Muhammad,Not Jesus or Abraham told us to do so..Thats our obligation to GOD,TO DO WHAT HE ASKS.Its that simple.
Whats so hard to understand? Thats one reason why its called Islam or Submission to the will of Allah.
What is the purpose of the temple of the Jews at that location? Did having it at this location or at any location make them more righteous?
From what I know its where Abraham went to sacrifice his son,then later GOD told the Isrealites to build a temple there.No having the temple there or anywhere else doesnt make some one more righteous,Obeying GOD makes a person more righteous.
Sorry Claurianta and Ayman for butting in,but just wanted to make a statement...
Peace
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Peace all,
The Arabic word for Destruction is common and clear, it is called ?Damar? and also ?Taddmira? ? ?, and Allah used it twice in the Quran to tell us that He meant ?Destruction?
And We command "Go ye both, to the people who have rejected our Signs" And those (people) We destroyed with utter destruction.
(36)
And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction.(16)
Ahmed, you are obviously exaggerating when you claim to be an Arabic speaker. Maybe he forgot Arabic.
The following are some of the words that can be used to mean "destruction".
, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
The same thing is true in ALL languages. There is usually more than one way to descirbe something. Hence, in English you can use the following words instead of destruction
breaking down , crush , crushing , demolishment , demolition , desolation , destruction , devastation , dilapidation , havocking , impairment , laying waste , ravage , razing , ruin , ruination , ruining , sabotage , smashing , subversion , tamping , tearing down , undermining , vandalism , wreck , wreckage , wrecking
Ahmed is blissfully unaware of such basic Arabic (and all languages) concepts.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace KGB,
Can you please explain which Masjid Al Haram God is referring in the following verse and which city it was located. My understanding is that it is Mecca and Masjid Al Haram is the present day kaba.
928 O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will God enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for God is All-knowing, All-wise.Do you really think that those who setup partners are not allowed to come near a building? Are those who setup partners not allowed to come near the stone cube and the Black Stone in Mecca?
You can see my detailed explanation of what a "masjid" is
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm
Peace,
Ayman
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Thank you brother Ayman
But hey that list of Arabic words that means destruction, did you get it from the Quran? lol
See bro the Ba has refuted your silly claim fair and square, brother JM confirmed that with the link, now in the link that JM posted I could not find one use that describe the flawed theory you are promoting, why you didn't respond to that?
See, you only resorted to discrediting my fluency in the Arabic Language, which is very obvious to notice, I refuted you using the Quran and you brought some hearsay by people we never know you even changed Yusif Ali translation and told us it is by Yusuf Ali, this is wrong bro, I didn't bring a refute by humans bro, I only brought refutes by Allah that make more sense to anyone who just follow the common sense, not confusing puzzles like what you are proposing
what you did by trying to discredit my fluency in Arabic will not work, because I know the grammar far better than you and I will always back what i say by the Quran while you are failing to do as such, show us another verse in the Quran that tells us clealy that Mecca means destruction in the context
you are bringing a common word that is used for a city and used only once in the Quran then severly manipulating its intended clear meaning by Allah to serve your own whatever
I have to remind everyone (including myself) with this verse from the Quran
"O Messenger! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter. "
(41)
Peace to all
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Peace JHamza,
The more important question is what does a particular location have anything to do with our obligation to The God.
The only thing we need to know is that GOD,not you,not me,not Muhammad,Not Jesus or Abraham told us to do so..Thats our obligation to GOD,TO DO WHAT HE ASKS.Its that simple.
Whats so hard to understand? Thats one reason why its called Islam or Submission to the will of Allah.When pious Jews knock their head on the wailing wall they think that God told them to do so (i.e. they believe that they are submitting to The God). When pious Christians venerate Jesus, they think that The God told them to do so. When pious Muslims mindlessly spin seven times around a cube, they think that The God told them to do so. They are all doing what they imagine God to be asking.
The God gave us a brain so that we can accomplish our purpose. He gave us the brain to think and understand so that we can correctly obey Him. He didn't give it to us so that we can blindly follow what others tell us The God asked from us.What is the purpose of the temple of the Jews at that location? Did having it at this location or at any location make them more righteous?
From what I know its where Abraham went to sacrifice his son,then later GOD told the Isrealites to build a temple there.No having the temple there or anywhere else doesnt make some one more righteous,Obeying GOD makes a person more righteous.
Great, you just found the answer for what a real "masjid" is. It is not a building. It is an institute of obedience to The God.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace ayman,
Peace JHamza,
When pious Jews knock their head on the wailing wall they think that God told them to do so (i.e. they believe that they are submitting to The God). When pious Christians venerate Jesus, they think that The God told them to do so. When pious Muslims mindlessly spin seven times around a cube, they think that The God told them to do so. They are all doing what they imagine God to be asking.Your beating around the proverbial bush there..I said when GOD Tells us something,not what sects or traditions tells us..You do know the difference dont you?I think you do...Allah doesnt tell us these things(there not in the Quran in other words)..
The God gave us a brain so that we can accomplish our purpose. He gave us the brain to think and understand so that we can correctly obey Him. He didn't give it to us so that we can blindly follow what others tell us The God asked from us.
Yes GOD did,thats why Im not going along with every little thing Quran Alone people or Progressive Muslims say is fact.
Great, you just found the answer for what a real "masjid" is. It is not a building. It is an institute of obedience to The God.
True masjid means place of worship,but a building can also be a place of worship...not An object to worship...
Peace -
Great, you just found the answer for what a real "masjid" is. It is not a building. It is an institute of obedience to The God.
True masjid means place of worship,but a building can also be a place of worship...not An object to worship...
PeaceAny place where Allah is worshipped is a Masjid
peace
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I agree with JHamza... it is the divine that is telling us something, not anyone else. The Qur'an is one such message, and so we have to read it and see what we're being told. Has it crossed anyone's mind that perhaps a slightly different message is destined for everyone, and that our brains are designed in such a way as to pick up the message that's for us (well, as long as we don't allow our personal prejudices to enter the picture).
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Peace JHamza,
Great, you just found the answer for what a real "masjid" is. It is not a building. It is an institute of obedience to The God.
True masjid means place of worship,but a building can also be a place of worship...not An object to worship...
What does a building have to do with "worship"? Do you only "worship" The God when you are in that building?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Claurianta,
I agree with JHamza... it is the divine that is telling us something, not anyone else. The Qur'an is one such message, and so we have to read it and see what we're being told. Has it crossed anyone's mind that perhaps a slightly different message is destined for everyone, and that our brains are designed in such a way as to pick up the message that's for us (well, as long as we don't allow our personal prejudices to enter the picture).
We are all on the same path, the straight path when we set up our direction wherever we are towards the truth from our Lord. Some of us will be at different points along this path but it is OK as long as we are in the right direction.
Peace,
Ayman
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We are all on the same path, the straight path when we set up our direction wherever we are towards the truth from our Lord. Some of us will be at different points along this path but it is OK as long as we are in the right direction.
Peace,
Ayman
Agreed, but I think one thing we have to ask ourselves is whether everyone has the same exact path, or if the Qur'an actually shows us a number of acceptable path, depending for example to what level we interpret the Qur'an figuratively, or what meaning we attach to words. I think they are many parts of the Qur'an where there are many valid interpretations, and we just have to follow the one which seems most appropriate for our own spiritual development. I am sick and tired of the whole interpretation that religion is a one-size-fits-all kind of thing. That kind of thinking leads only to control, prejudice and honestly, war. Honestly I think that anyone that rejects someone else's religious freedom is breaking one of God's most fundamental rules. I believe the the Qur'an never advocates any kind of action against other religions, except in strict and proportional self-defence. I think it's quite clear that God is the one who has the right to make judgements on religion, and giving ourselves the right to judge whether another's religion is appropriate or not is equivalent to making ourselves into a partner of God.
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Salaamun alaikum all,
"Batnun" can indeed mean valley (Dictionary of Holy Qur'aan by Abdul Mannan Omar) and "bibatni makkata" in 4824 could also mean in the valley of Makkah as claurianta has been suggesting. That meaning would fit in the context of 4824 and still does not prove the existence of the city of Makkah but would just prove the existence of the valley of Makkah as per claurianta. Brother Ayman and brother Ahmad, what do you think of that alternative meaning ?
The pagan temple (Chobar) must have been in that valley of Makkah. Maybe the city of Makkah was later constructed in the valley of Makkah and the pagan temple in Makkah (Chobar) was then renamed as the Kaaba. Maybe that is how the pagans of valley of Makkah were able to deceive the millions of muslims as to the location of Kaaba without arousing much suspicion, especially when there was already confusion among them as to what the real qiblah (focal point) was, because of the change in qiblah from a physical place to another physical place for the purpose of testing the believers and then the final change to a mental qiblah of the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden (al-masjid al-haram). That would explain the scarcity of the physical and historical evidence of the change of Kaaba from Bakkah to Makkah after the death of Prophet Muhammad, especially if the final qiblah was set up just before the death of Prophet Muhammad.
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Salaamun alaikum all,
"Batnun" can indeed mean valley (Dictionary of Holy Qur'aan by Abdul Mannan Omar) and "bibatni makkata" in 4824 could also mean in the valley of Makkah as claurianta has been suggesting. That meaning would fit in the context of 4824 and still does not prove the existence of the city of Makkah but would just prove the existence of the valley of Makkah as per claurianta. Brother Ayman and brother Ahmad, what do you think of that alternative meaning ?
Salam brother
I actually stated earlier to brother claurianta that the valley of Mecca as a place is very valid understanding as well as long as it referes to a place, now we may chernge the discussion into where we find this valley of Mecca
peace
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Peace Claurianta,
Agreed, but I think one thing we have to ask ourselves is whether everyone has the same exact path, or if the Qur'an actually shows us a number of acceptable path, depending for example to what level we interpret the Qur'an figuratively, or what meaning we attach to words.
Perhaps repeating what I said, but while providing the references will help
We are all on the same path, the straight path (2142), WHEN we set up our direction wherever we are (2144) towards the truth from our Lord (2144 & 2149).
I think that everyone here will agree that the straight path is figurative (well except perhaps Sunnis who think that it is a literal path over hell). So if the straight path is not a highway to Mecca then think about the real direction you should take and the true direction you shoudl be facing all the time WHEREVER you are.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace tanveermd,
"Batnun" can indeed mean valley (Dictionary of Holy Qur'aan by Abdul Mannan Omar) and "bibatni makkata" in 4824 could also mean in the valley of Makkah as claurianta has been suggesting. That meaning would fit in the context of 4824 and still does not prove the existence of the city of Makkah but would just prove the existence of the valley of Makkah as per claurianta. Brother Ayman and brother Ahmad, what do you think of that alternative meaning ?
Classical Arabic dictionaries give the following as one of the meanings of "batn"
Batn In its middle and in its midst
This is why Yusuf Ali correctly used "midst" for "batn" in his translation.
From a linguistic point of view, the common meaning "in the midst of destruction" perfectly fits in the context of war from the passage.
From a logical point of view, if the clear common meaning perfectly fits, then why take the dubious proper name meaning instead?
Add to this all the facts about the complete absence of any reference to Mecca prior to the 8th century CE and really the only reason why people are advocating the proper name is dogmatic attachment to what they blindly inherited from their forefathers.
The pagan temple (Chobar) must have been in that valley of Makkah. Maybe the city of Makkah was later constructed in the valley of Makkah and the pagan temple in Makkah (Chobar) was then renamed as the Kaaba. Maybe that is how the pagans of valley of Makkah were able to deceive the millions of muslims as to the location of Kaaba without arousing much suspicion, especially when there was already confusion among them as to what the real qiblah (focal point) was, because of the change in qiblah from a physical place to another physical place for the purpose of testing the believers and then the final change to a mental qiblah of the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden (al-masjid al-haram). That would explain the scarcity of the physical and historical evidence of the change of Kaaba from Bakkah to Makkah after the death of Prophet Muhammad, especially if the final qiblah was set up just before the death of Prophet Muhammad.
The focal point was only changed once, from physical to non-physical.
This is why in 2142 the foolish people wonder why people "turned away/rejected" the original focal point, they are answered that the reason is that The God guides whom He wills to a straight path. Of course, the straight path is not physical.
Peace,
Ayman