what are emotions?
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Paz
I understand the idolfree's approach, taking emotion as an agitation/movement of the spirit, starting intensely and then appeasing till dissapearing, in comparisson to peace taken as tranquility, stability, stillness.
Another approach I understand is the similarity among emotions, feelings and passions, none of them based on intellectuality but inclination. That we have to direct them with our reason I think we all agree on this.
I think you Lote Tree are speaking about those emotions, love and compassion once they have been controlled by our reason, once they are already organised.
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
Our physical respnse is not condition, just individual, it is our REACTION that becomes conditioned and also becomes the hardest "habbit" to break.
I am not sure I understand what you are saying, please give an example for me or elaborate just a bit more. My thought was to ask you about when the doctor hits your knee with a mallet and your leg pops up, but I am not sure I understood what you said.
Some people become conditioned to react to anger or frustration with physical violence because of their upbringing.
Correct, that is what I am saying
Feeling something is not a choice, it just happens, but you DO CHOOSE how you react to that feeling.
I disagree. There was a time when I could smell pork bacon frying and the FEELING would come to me that I really wanted to eat that bacon. Maybe crumble it up in some cheese eggs. Today, I do not get that feeling at all.
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Hi all,
peace all. Just thinking today,is an emotion an unprocessed idea? (ie a thought you have not yet 'rationalised'). Any comments?
Emotions are the resultant of our thoughts.
As long as we keep our thoughts honest to our soul and also keep a check on them using our brain, the resultant emotions that come of such thoughts would be peaceful and productive.
All emotions are meant to be positive and are meant to have a constructive purpose to them.
Peace!
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Our physical respnse is not condition, just individual, it is our REACTION that becomes conditioned and also becomes the hardest "habbit" to break.
What I mean here is that although our bodies react differently to say "embarrassment" (some sweat some turn red) they are not "conditioned" responses they are natural. BUT how we REACT to those emotions might be conditioned (IE shying into a corner when embarrassed, or standing up and taking a bow for it)
Some people become conditioned to react to anger or frustration with physical violence because of their upbringing.
Correct, that is what I am saying
BUT that is how they are CHOOSING to reeact to anger. The initial rise in blood pressure and such that can often be an imediate UNCOTROLABLE physical reaction is natural, the choice to react with violence is what is conditioned.
Feeling something is not a choice, it just happens, but you DO CHOOSE how you react to that feeling.
I disagree. There was a time when I could smell pork bacon frying and the FEELING would come to me that I really wanted to eat that bacon. Maybe crumble it up in some cheese eggs. Today, I do not get that feeling at all.
yes but that feeling is not really emotion. I believe that is a bad example.
Let's say someone usually hugs others when they are happy. they can stop HUGGING as a reaction to that happiness, but that does not mean they no longer feel HAPPINESS. AS well the triggers for emotions may change, but i still don't think that makes it "conditioned". I think just as it is natural for us to grow and mature with age, and just as our bodies may react differently to various things as we age, so do our emotions. I used to be able to play on a "slip-n-slide" as a kid and loved it. Now it is just a world of pain. -
Peace be upon you Lote Tree,
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So, the question you asked was "whats wrong with BEING LED by Love and compassion", my answer is a clear example of what can be wrong with it. Do you agree?No. I dissagree. I can't see how cultivating love and compassion within yourself for yourself and those that have you around leads to being a battered women or man! Nor can I see how being led by feelings of LOVE and COMPASSION for yourself and others leads to being a battered women or man!
I guess if you continue to change your question you wont see it. Your question was, AGAIN, "whats wrong with being led by love?". Your question was NOT anything about cultivating love within yourself, this is what you changed it to. When someone FOLLOWS this concept of "Love", then they are subject to go wherever tha EMOTION takes them. A battered woman is BLINDED by "love" and stays in a situation that is unhealthy (as one example).
You are confusing human abuse that has nothing do with the concept of LOVE and COMPASSION. Compassion is being able to feel the suffering of others. You don't have to be in a relationship with another individual to have the feeling of compassion for yourself and your fellow human beings.
The battered women is an example of abuse and abuse is always about the power-play between the Weak and the Strong in a relationship.
The confusion is coming from your change of the question. But let me ask you what is the response of a battered woman when asked why she stays with the abuser?
There is no HATE in LOVE itself there is no ANGER in compassion. We can all cultivate love and compassion individually for ourselves and for others. All we have to do is look beyond "I LOVE YOU" understanding of LOVE and COMPASSION and see LOVE and COMPASSION for what it is LOVE and COMPASSION allows us to connect with other human beings.
I dont disagree with that. My point is that WHATEVER the Emotion, it is to FOLLOW not Lead.
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Or how about one who "loves" smoking crack, should they be led by that emotion?Please don't equate substance abuse with the concept of LOVE and COMPASSION.
The point is emotions must FOLLOW reasoning.
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And there are many more examples that show what is wrong with being led b the lower part of man rather than the higher.LOVE and COMPASSION is the HIGHER part of man. Without LOVE and COMPASSION for your fellow man and yourself you will not able to attain "PEACE", the peace you so desperately seek.
Absolutely correct, when properly understood. But both you and I know that mankind is "attracted" to that which is not good for him/her, and this is what is being called "love" by most of mankind and this is the topic being dealt with. Do you agree or disagree.
Further, why are we sibling out "love" , what about "joy"? Is is wise to be led by Joy?
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E-Motion is movement, Peace is stillness.No. PEACE is not Stillness. PEACE is HARMONY within yourself.
Harmony is harmony, peace is stillness. We go from Stillness to motion . Just like the line used on an EKG machine that goes to a still flat line at death. All comes from the subjective realm, where energy/matter us at rest and unformed, to the objective realm where all things vibrate and atain form. Just like the word Nirvana which means Not Moving.
Please give your evidence.
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Our respose to all things should be peace, THEN movement must be commanded.Our responses to all things must be natural.
Same thing Peace is our essence.
So you should feel ANGER when you see injustice.
Why must you lose your health in order to respond properly to injustice?
You should feel JOY when you see beauty.
When you see beauty, allowing Joy to follow does not cause any problem, so sure, let joy FOLLOW.
You should feel FEAR when you are confronted with the danger.
Why? Martial arts master will tell you that if you become emotional you will die. Peace is the foundation.
Do you understand the reality behind the statement "stress leads to illness"? The verifyable facts are that when you get emotional, even extreme pleasure, blood leaves the vital organs , therefore causing STARVATION of the organs. Emotional states are not meant to be indulged in. If a car is coming, yes, the response of fear for fight or flight so you can jump out the way without even thinking is necessary, but if someone is coming to fight you or another situation where you have time to THINK/REASON, then one should be at peace, which send blood to the brain so you can respond intelligently.
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Peace is what is natural, emotions are that which is already DOING SOOMETHING, already pushing or pulling us to a certaint end/goal. Who decided that goal?EMOTIONS are natural.
Emotions are part of being, yes, but our foundation is PEACE. Let me state it that way.
Some emotions are DESTRUCTIVE like HATE and ANGER. Some emotions are positive like LOVE and COMPASSION. You come to terms with the NEGATIVE EMOTIONS through understanding but you don't deny or REPROGRAM your emotions.
I've already done it, as have MANY other people. It only takes a few minutes of reflection on your life to realize this. Lets take one who is addicted to cigarettes. The EMOTIONS push this person to smoke, right?
But when one IGNORES this emotion for a period of time, the PUSH of the emotions weakens, then finally you are no longer addicted. Now , when you smell cigarettes you get sick to your stomach. So what happenned to the emotions that pushed you to smoke?
You accept them as natural but you cultivate and nurture the POSITIVE emotions within yourself to minimise the destructive effects of the negative...
Okay, I see the problem here. Let me clarify. Emotions are a natural part of being, yes, but to RESPOND to an event with emotions is NOT NATURAL, it is conditioned. To starve your vital organs is not natural.
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Peace be upon you Tay,
Which brings me to your comment to Lote Tree
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how about one who "loves" smoking crack, should they be led by that emotion?I disagee with this qualification in that using the term "love" in a sentence does not equate to the emotion of love that is being discussed. One can say they "love" to get high, but that is just an expression of what that person perceives as enjoyment.
I agree, but I am speaking in terms of how the word is used by the majority of mankind, which is why I put it in quotes. True Love is giving seeking nothing in return.
In short, "I love my wife" is not equal to "I love crack". These are 2 completely different uses of the term.
I would not be so quick to say that. Both are your expression towards an external object. many people say they "love" thier spouse, but they curse at them, cheat on them, abuse them, etc.
Further, you used the example of a battered wife who stays with her husband because she's in love.
Yes, because that is the response given over and over and over again by the abused.
I don't think this is possible. One cannot love a person and then accept belittlement and abuse from that person.
I disagree. The abused can still love the abuser by getting them help and leaving the relationship. But that can only come about when they are at PEACE, therefore not blinded by emotion (whatever we want to name it, all emotion is energy) so they can reason the proper response. So the ENERGY (emotion) follows the reasoning.
The people that stick around are handicapped by insecurity and zero self-respect. Their feelings have nothing to do with love.
I agree. From this point I will no longer use a name for the emotions, I will just say ENERGY, cause thats all it is anyway. The names are making this simple concept very confusing, which is why the abused will say they love the abuser. Whats hapening is that they are blinded by the ENERGY, and they are not really chosing anymore.
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Peace be upon you Taj,
Kyle wrote
E-Motion is movement, Peace is stillness.Movement is life. Peace is not stillness. Stillness is equal to nothing.
Is there such a thing as a still atom!? Imagine that!No, but thats what happens when your focus is on the ILLUSION of this world, the material world. The PEACE/STILLNESS I am referring to is the opposite polarity of this world, from which we come and will be returned to.
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Peace be upon you Elena,
I think you Lote Tree are speaking about those emotions, love and compassion once they have been controlled by our reason, once they are already organised.
Well said sister! D
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
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Our physical respnse is not condition, just individual, it is our REACTION that becomes conditioned and also becomes the hardest "habbit" to break.What I mean here is that although our bodies react differently to say "embarrassment" (some sweat some turn red) they are not "conditioned" responses they are natural. BUT how we REACT to those emotions might be conditioned (IE shying into a corner when embarrassed, or standing up and taking a bow for it)
Ok, the I must disagree with this. Let me ask you, les start with a new born baby. Please tell me at what point one becomes "embarrassed"?
A porn star vs. a nun being video taped in the nude will not "feel" the same about it. One would be embarrassed, the other would not.Quote
Some people become conditioned to react to anger or frustration with physical violence because of their upbringing.Quote
Correct, that is what I am sayingBUT that is how they are CHOOSING to reeact to anger. The initial rise in blood pressure and such that can often be an imediate UNCOTROLABLE physical reaction is natural, the choice to react with violence is what is conditioned.
Why did you say OFTEN in your response? If it is "natural", then everyone will experience it. However, tha which angers you does not anger everyone else, making the blood pressure rise and so forth. Do you understand that?
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Feeling something is not a choice, it just happens, but you DO CHOOSE how you react to that feeling.I disagree. There was a time when I could smell pork bacon frying and the FEELING would come to me that I really wanted to eat that bacon. Maybe crumble it up in some cheese eggs. Today, I do not get that feeling at all.
yes but that feeling is not really emotion.
Yes, its is an emotion. Emotions are ENERGY that pushes you towards something or pulls you away from something.
Let's say someone usually hugs others when they are happy. they can stop HUGGING as a reaction to that happiness, but that does not mean they no longer feel HAPPINESS.
Sawtooth, the emotion here would be happy", not "hugging". Why are you dealing with teh REACTION to the emotion? What is it that is causing the "happiness" which is the emotion? Christmas used to make me "happy", today the same ENERGY does not come to me. Why?
AS well the triggers for emotions may change, but i still don't think that makes it "conditioned".
Yes, it certainly is conditioned and when you reflect on these examples I am giving, including the example of watching the newborn baby develop.
I think just as it is natural for us to grow and mature with age, and just as our bodies may react differently to various things as we age, so do our emotions.
Our emotions are actually tied into our organs, an the health of our organs changes, so does our energies(emotions). But no matter what, we must still re establish PEACE as our initial response.
I used to be able to play on a "slip-n-slide" as a kid and loved it. Now it is just a world of pain.
Respected. I dont recall your age, but there are old people who can still play on slip and slide. We actually need a health thread on here as well because all this "spiritual" talk, we tent to forget about the physical aspect of it, myself included.
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Ok. Although emotions and the physical response ARE natural, a newborn baby can't practically breathe through their nose either, or digest certain foods. So that was a bad example. As for the nun and the stripper? I never said all the triggers for the emotions are identicle. Everyone's body reacts differently to stimuli, but the body DOES react with a reflex action. What i mean by "feeling" is that when the body experience a reflex action to an emotion, we DO feel that.
With the hugging. What i am saying is tht it is the RESPONSE we choose that is conditioned not the reflex reaction of the body that is condition. Hugging IS conditioned, the feeling within the body that lets the brain know you are feeling "happy" is reflex. You may be able to be conditioned think certain situations are embarrassing but the initial reflexive reaction is the natural.
As for slip-n-slide it is not my age but the change in body shape distance from teh ground that ultimate causes pain what running and bellyflopping onto a wet garbage bag
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
Ok. Although emotions and the physical response ARE natural, a newborn baby can't practically breathe through their nose either, or digest certain foods. So that was a bad example.
I asked you at what point does the baby begin to feel embarrassed.
As for the nun and the stripper? I never said all the triggers for the emotions are identicle. Everyone's body reacts differently to stimuli, but the body DOES react with a reflex action. What i mean by "feeling" is that when the body experience a reflex action to an emotion, we DO feel that.
Yes, we do feel the REACTION to the emotion, but how does that follow that getting angry because someone cut you off in traffic is "natural" response? Please elaborate on what you are trying to say because you are not being clear.
With the hugging. What i am saying is tht it is the RESPONSE we choose that is conditioned not the reflex reaction of the body that is condition. Hugging IS conditioned, the feeling within the body that lets the brain know you are feeling "happy" is reflex. You may be able to be conditioned think certain situations are embarrassing but the initial reflexive reaction is the natural.
Ok, so lets go back to my statement about Pork Bacon. Please apply your understanding to that scenario and help me understand what you are saying. Why is it that when I was younger, I had a certain response to the smell of it cooking, but today I don't
As for slip-n-slide it is not my age but the change in body shape distance from teh ground that ultimate causes pain what running and bellyflopping onto a wet garbage bag
lol
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OK someone cuts you off in traffic that is probably frustration over anger and is less likely a conditioned response as more a reaction to cumulated stress.
Lets go with an easier example
FEAR
Fear... the imediate NATURAL UNCONTROLED reflexive reaction is the bosy's release of adrenaline. The CONTROLLED CONDITIONED RESPONSE to that reflexive reaction is often to scream.
NOW do you see what I mean?
As for a child feeling embarrassment, it accurs when they begin to realise their place in a world existing outside of themselves, usually around 2.5-3.5 years depending on the child.
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Hello Kyle,
I guess if you continue to change your question you wont see it.
I guess you did not understand the implication of the question.
Your question was, AGAIN, "whats wrong with being led by love?". Your question was NOT anything about cultivating love within yourself, this is what you changed it to. When someone FOLLOWS this concept of "Love", then they are subject to go wherever tha EMOTION takes them. A battered woman is BLINDED by "love" and stays in a situation that is unhealthy (as one example).
Again if you had understood the implication of the question then you would not have used the battered women example. And AGAIN I tell you you can have love and compassion for yourself and for others without being in a relationship. Battered women example does not hold water.
The confusion is coming from your change of the question.
No Kyle question is same it is just that you did not grasp the implication of the question. Think out of the box wink
But let me ask you what is the response of a battered woman when asked why she stays with the abuser?
Again I say to you can cultivate and nurture love and compassion for yourself and others without being in a relationship. Battered women exaple is not working Kyle.
I dont disagree with that. My point is that WHATEVER the Emotion, it is to FOLLOW not Lead.
The point is emotions must FOLLOW reasoning.
Emotions comes naturally. You can't make emotions follow reason. You feel emotions. How you deal with your emotions comes from experience.
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And there are many more examples that show what is wrong with being led b the lower part of man rather than the higher.LOVE and COMPASSION is the HIGHER part of man. Without LOVE and COMPASSION for your fellow man and yourself you will not able to attain "PEACE", the peace you so desperately seek.
Absolutely correct, when properly understood.
Kyle you are confusing people here! And you are now making people feel dumb too when you say properly understood! You mean to say you only understand it and others don't so you can say EMOTIONS is our lower part of man or animal part of life?
But both you and I know that mankind is "attracted" to that which is not good for him/her, and this is what is being called "love" by most of mankind and this is the topic being dealt with. Do you agree or disagree.
I dissagree. Some human beings have always been "attracted" to the good and some human beings have always been "attracted" to the bad. Majority hover on the borderline between good and bad. But I like to believe that majority always leans towards the good.
Harmony is harmony, peace is stillness.
Lets play word games Kyle.
Definition of PEACE = cessation of War. The usual context of its meaning.
When the war is over Kyle, people don't stay STILL. They go about their daily life. This PEACE is in the context of a SOCIETY.
Here is more definition of PEACE.
Definitions of peace on the Web
PEACE - the state prevailing during the absence of war
PEACE - harmonious relations; freedom from disputes; "the roommates lived in peace together"
PEACE - the absence of mental stress or anxiety
PEACE - the general security of public places; "he was arrested for disturbing the peace"
PEACE - a treaty to cease hostilities; "peace came on November 11th"
Can you see the word STILLNESS in the above list Kyle? No! But HARMONY is there!
We go from Stillness to motion . Just like the line used on an EKG machine that goes to a still flat line at death.
If you use PEACE in the context of a BODY then DEAD BODY is STILL! and therefore STILLNESS is death in this case but a live body will not be STILL. So in the PEACE in the context of BODY is OUGHT not to be desired! -)
All comes from the subjective realm, where energy/matter us at rest and unformed, to the objective realm where all things vibrate and atain form.
Lets leave matter-antimatter conversion formulas and holodeck vibrations to a Star Trek thread. We are discussing PEACE in the context of human beings.
Just like the word Nirvana which means Not Moving.
Definitions of nirvana on the Web
NIRVANA - ?extinction? ? the soteriological goal of Buddhism; the final cessation of rebirth into suffering existence.
www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Glossary.htm
NIRVANA - in Hindu theory, a condition of happiness arising out of the absolute cessation of desire.
www.willdurant.com/glossary.htm
NIRVANA- the state of enlightenment, in which the causes of rebirth are eliminated;
livingheritage.org/glossary.htmNIRVANA - The state of having extinguished suffering. Nirvana is a spiritual state in which the bonds of existence are cut away. It is held to be an ineffable, indefinable experience.
NIRVANA - Lit. Blowing out. Buddhist term for the 'exti nction' of the ego leading to enlightenment.
www.well.com/user/jct/sageglo.htmSee there is no STILLNESS there Kyle.
Our responses to all things must be natural.
Same thing D Peace is our essence.
PEACE as HARMONY yes for sure. PEACE as STILLNESS, no.
So you should feel ANGER when you see injustice.
Why must you lose your health in order to respond properly to injustice?
Its an emotional reaction - there is no why. You just feel it.
But Kyle why don't you ask youself this question - why do we feel anger at INJUSTICE? perhaps this for another thread?
Could it be that our emotions serve a higher purpose? -)
ANGER in itself is a DESTRUCTIVE emotion but cultivation of LOVE and COMPASSION will alleivate its effect.
You should feel JOY when you see beauty.
When you see beauty, allowing Joy to follow does not cause any problem, so sure, let joy FOLLOW.
So when an EMOTION does not cause harm that is OK? Kyle that is what I am saying the CULTIVATION and NURTURING of POSITIVE EMOTIONS to minise the effects of the NEGATIVE and joy does not follow JOY FLOWS, IT SWELLS UP -)
You should feel FEAR when you are confronted with the danger.
Why? Martial arts master will tell you that if you become emotional you will die. Peace is the foundation.
Because that is a NATURAL reaction to danger! To FEEL FEAR. How you deal with FEAR is what your KUNGFU MASTER can teach you.
Do you understand the reality behind the statement "stress leads to illness"?
Have you heard LAUGHTER IS A GOOD THERAPY FOR STRESS? Again cultivate the postive emotions. Come to terms with the negative.
The verifyable facts are that when you get emotional, even extreme pleasure, blood leaves the vital organs , therefore causing STARVATION of the organs.
So that is the REASON why we should give up FEELING?
Kyle why do people do exercise? To keep fit? And excise involves oxygen starvation when you are doing a sprint for example? So exercise is unatural?!
Emotional states are not meant to be indulged in.
Kyle EMOTIONAL states are natural. Nothing should be indulged in without moderation. But extreme emotions do lead to Catharsis which is beneficial to the growth of that individual.
If a car is coming, yes, the response of fear for fight or flight so you can jump out the way without even thinking is necessary, but if someone is coming to fight you or another situation where you have time to THINK/REASON, then one should be at peace, which send blood to the brain so you can respond intelligently.
Kyle the argument is that can't stop FEELING. You come to terms with your feelings. So when you feel anger, you let yourself feel anger but you learn not to take a dagger and stab someone through the heart.
Okay, I see the problem here. Let me clarify. Emotions are a natural part of being, yes, but to RESPOND to an event with emotions is NOT NATURAL, it is conditioned.
That is the TIME HONOURED TRUTH...
To starve your vital organs is not natural.
-) Kyle when you do a sprint you starve your vital organs of oxygen and give it a lot of stress!!! So we should stop exercsiing because our vital organs will be starved of oxygen and therefore it is not natural? -)
This is not TIME HONOURED TRUTH wink
Regards,
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Wow Loti when did you turn philosopher lol
Peace
Just yesterday bmbmm when I was looking at my reflection in the mirror and I told myself I could have done a better job than that!!!!
Just kiddin -)
Regards,
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I love what you wrote, LT. Now I want to read the whole thread!
Really? -) I try to impress !!! -)
Just kiddin -)Long time no see?
Welcome back -)
Regards,
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peace Lote Tree and all
Kyle the argument is that can't stop FEELING. You come to terms with your feelings. So when you feel anger, you let yourself feel anger but you learn not to take a dagger and stab someone through the heart.
That is controlling your emotion.
I dont think anyone is saying you should get rid of your emotions, or learn not to have feelings, but to control your emotions and feelings. If you control something, it follows you.
I dont know what the fuss is all about.
I think people are saying the same thing (with slight differences) but using different words. -
peace Lote Tree and all
Kyle the argument is that can't stop FEELING. You come to terms with your feelings. So when you feel anger, you let yourself feel anger but you learn not to take a dagger and stab someone through the heart.
That is controlling your emotion.
I dont think anyone is saying you should get rid of your emotions, or learn not to have feelings, but to control your emotions and feelings. If you control something, it follows you.
I dont know what the fuss is all about.
I think people are saying the same thing (with slight differences) but using different words.no that is accepting the emotion and controlliing your reaction
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Peace Kyle,
You stated
I am speaking in terms of how the word is used by the majority of mankind, which is why I put it in quotes.
I understand.
True Love is giving seeking nothing in return.
I partially agree. True love is it's own reward, so it's not really "nothing" in return, it's more love that comes back to the sender. In giving, we are always receiving love.
many people say they "love" thier spouse, but they curse at them, cheat on them, abuse them, etc.
Point taken. But I would also say that many people do love their spouses.
I disagree. The abused can still love the abuser by getting them help and leaving the relationship.
But then, they're not accepting the belittlement and the abuse, they are trying to resolve it. This is different from the example you originally gave. But no worries, I think we're on the same page, just speaking different dialects wink
Peace,
Tay