WHY JESUS, COULD NOT HAVE BEEN BORN WITHOUT A FATHER...
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Peace thegod,
and god could have said jesus did have a father, which it did not! so u have got absolutely nothing to base ur argument upon, except conjecture!
Conjecture would be assuming a virgin birth occurred when no such thing is stated. This is your position, not mine.
the way adam was created without any human involvement, so was jesus born without a father!
Now that's conjecture! wink
Please quote me the ayah that states that Adam was born without a father, otherwise, stand corrected.u illustrated nothing!
I didn't?
Here's the ayah again, the one that you call "nothing"...
3682 His command, when He wants anything, is to say to it "Be" and it is!So, as we see, ALL of Allah's creation comes from the command "Be".
Now what about the dust??
1837 His companion said to him, in the course of the argument with him "Dost thou deny Him Who created thee out of dust, then out of a sperm-drop, then fashioned thee into a man?
So, my friend, the example of Isa being like that of Adam, as quoted in 359, is that he was created from dust, via the "be" command. As illustrated above, all of humanity was also created from dust via the "be" command. So what is 359 really telling us by drawing these similarities?
Is it that Isa was different, or that Isa was the same?
Let's ask the Qur'an
575 The Messiah son of Mary, is no more than a messenger; like whom messengers have passed away; and his mother was trustworthy, they used to eat the food. See how We clarify the signs for them, then see how they deviate.There you have it.
the quran does not state that jesus had a father! given the fact that the christians believed in the virignal birth of christ, it would have been a better option to simply state that christ had a father, rather than allude his existence to adam's!
It's great that you feel you have this sort of divine insight. However, since these thoughts cannot be validated, let's please stick to what we have in black and white.
In the Qur'an, what is more frequently and adamantly addressed, the fact that the Christians believed Isa was born without a father, or the fact that Isa was worshipped as God?
just like god created adam without a father with a 'be', likewise was the birth of jesus without a father, with a 'be'!
You have yet to establish this.
so if u have anything based on quran to back ur view, bring it up!
I have. I hope you'll do the same.
else be not of those who argue against god based on conjecture (i dont say that the quran does)!
One should be open and inviting to new ideas and understandings according to the Qur'an. I'm not sure why you're so quick to let things deteriorate to this level of rhetoric. But, that's your perogative.
Looking forward to your replies.
Peace,
Tay -
tay wrote...
Conjecture would be assuming a virgin birth occurred when no such thing is stated. This is your position, not mine.u stated since god does not say jesus did not have a father, it means jesus has a father! by the ur same literalism, since god does not say jesus had a father, it means jesus did not have a father! so u are doing naught but conjecturing! -) its sad u do not understand or implement consistency! -)
Please quote me the ayah that states that Adam was born without a father, otherwise, stand corrected.
do quote the ayah that states adam was born through a father, otherwise u are only conjecturing, by ur own standards! -)
38 71 When your Lord said to the angels "That I am creating a human from mud/clay .
38 72 So if I straightened him, and I blew in him from My Soul/Spirit , so fall/come to him prostrating.
now quote an ayah that states god told the angels it was going to cause the birth of adam through some father! else, dont conjecture! -)
tay wrote...
I didn't?
Here's the ayah again, the one that you call "nothing"...
3682 His command, when He wants anything, is to say to it "Be" and it is!So, as we see, ALL of Allah's creation comes from the command "Be".
u did not! -( indeed all of creation comes from the command 'be'!
tay wrote...
Now what about the dust??1837 His companion said to him, in the course of the argument with him "Dost thou deny Him Who created thee out of dust, then out of a sperm-drop, then fashioned thee into a man?
indeed, u are created from dust because ur forefathers are from dust, u are created from sperm because u are created from the sperm of ur father, and thereafter u were fashioned into a human!
tay wrote...
So, my friend, the example of Isa being like that of Adam, as quoted in 359, is that he was created from dust, via the "be" command. As illustrated above, all of humanity was also created from dust via the "be" command. So what is 359 really telling us by drawing these similarities?god created everything with a 'be', so perhaps the earth also came from sperm! -)
tay wrote...
Is it that Isa was different, or that Isa was the same?Let's ask the Qur'an
575 The Messiah son of Mary, is no more than a messenger; like whom messengers have passed away; and his mother was trustworthy, they used to eat the food. See how We clarify the signs for them, then see how they deviate.There you have it.
indeed, christians claimed jesus was god, as such god reminded that jesus was no more than a messenger, and he ate food in other words he was human, not god! it does not say jesus was born of a father, yet again u have conjectured! -)
tay wrote...
It's great that you feel you have this sort of divine insight. However, since these thoughts cannot be validated, let's please stick to what we have in black and white.In the Qur'an, what is more frequently and adamantly addressed, the fact that the Christians believed Isa was born without a father, or the fact that Isa was worshipped as God?
i was expecting such an argument! -) the fact is that christians beleived jesus was son of god, as such they beleived god begot him through a woman, as such they believed he did not have a father! i suggest u read the quran! -)
tay wrote...
One should be open and inviting to new ideas and understandings according to the Qur'an. I'm not sure why you're so quick to let things deteriorate to this level of rhetoric. But, that's your perogative.####### indeed, according to quran, not conjecture! -) u have demanded a black and white verse which states jesus did not have a father! however, given the fact that christians called him the son of god, the demand is more to state that jesus had a father! however u have failed to produce any verse which states this in as many words! far from that, u have failed to produce a single verse which according to u substantiates ur claim! -)
######## again i remind u, the title of the thread is 'why jesus could not have been born without a father"! as such the onus is to bring black and white verses to justify this 'why', according to ur criterion! -) so i do hope u will bring forth a verse which substantiates ur claim,and be a little more consistent in what u demand as proof and what u offer as proof! -)
tay wrote...
Looking forward to your replies
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######### looking forward to ur first proof! -)########## peace -)
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Peace thegod,
u stated since god does not say jesus did not have a father, it means jesus has a father! by the ur same literalism, since god does not say jesus had a father, it means jesus did not have a father!
Umm...not exactly. See, all people are born via the male sperm fertilizing the female egg. This is natural, and thus, assumed to be ordinary. This is why we're not told Moses had a father. It's already understood. Do you see the difference?
do quote the ayah that states adam was born through a father, otherwise u are only conjecturing, by ur own standards!
I can only go by what's in the Qur'an and what's evident in life. Neither supports the idea of a virgin birth.
You quoted
38 71 When your Lord said to the angels "That I am creating a human from mud/clay .
38 72 So if I straightened him, and I blew in him from My Soul/Spirit , so fall/come to him prostrating.
Please show me where Adam is mentioned in Surat Saad.
now quote an ayah that states god told the angels it was going to cause the birth of adam through some father!
The ayat you posted are not in relation to Adam, but to mankind, created from clay.
indeed all of creation comes from the command 'be'!
I'm glad we finally agree.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
tay wrote...
Umm...not exactly. See, all people are born via the male sperm fertilizing the female egg. This is natural, and thus, assumed to be ordinary.what do u say about the first man and woman! -)
tay wrote...
This is why we're not told Moses had a father. It's already understood. Do you see the difference?and this is why moses or humankind is not made as an example to jesus in 359! instead, the example used is that of adam! -)
tay wrote...
I can only go by what's in the Qur'an and what's evident in life. Neither supports the idea of a virgin birth.u have perhaps overlooked what i wrote about the claim that jesus was god's son! quran states that 'they' said that god had begotten a son! again, the mother of this son is a woman! then how did god beget this son? through this woman! if god begot that son through a woman, then that son would not have a father other than god itself! as such the claim is clear that jesus was not known to have a father! i do hope u will go by what quran says and not by ur literalism! -)
tay wrote...
Please show me where Adam is mentioned in Surat Saad.
The ayat you posted are not in relation to Adam, but to mankind, created from clay.3871 For your Lord said to the Angels "I am creating a human being from clay."
3872 "So when I have evolved him, and breathed into him from My spirit, then you shall submit to him."
3873 The Angels submitted, all of them,
3874 Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters.234 And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam," so they submitted except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
1761 And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam." So they submitted except for Satan, he said "Shall I submit to one you have created from mud!"
read to ur satisfaction! -)
tay wrote...
I'm glad we finally agree.we do agree that god carries out its task with a 'be'! however we differ in that i opine that different tasks are realised in different ways, even though they come about by a 'be'! however, u seem to be of the opinion that everything is accomplished in the same manner, as such it appears u are saying god created adam, jesus, rest of humans, trees, mountains, stars and the rest with a 'be', it created them all out of sperm! -)
i am still waiting for the first proof "why jesus could not have been born without a father"! the proof may not necessarily be black and white, but should be supported by quran and reasoning, and not conjecture! -)
may peace be upon you -)
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All i can say in this subject of Mariam is that clearly an angel in the form of a man was sent to her by Allah, then when she was pregnant and the people saw her they said she fornicated...someone who is guilty of fornication would not be confident facing her people with a pregnant belly, she however has faith in Allah and is a thankful servant (unthankfulness, that is kufr and guilt)
Fornication is not proven in islam unless 4 people witness the act, one who accuses a woman of fornication without bringing 4 witnesses is considered a liar and i believe is even to be flogged 80 times and never will a testemony be taken from him again. Take the example when people even gossiped that the wife of the prophet had fornicated with the man who brought her home because she lagged behind from the caravan. Allah is very serious about accusing someone of fornicating without 4 witnesses.
One is not allowed to look into ones window, or go into ones house without invitation...so the only way one would be found guilty of fornication is when it is done outside, in the open and when Allah decrees that 4 people would witness it...this would clearly mean Allah wishes these people to be punished for their acts with 100 lashes it is very unlikely to be caught in the act by 4 people while taking precautions and making sure no one is arround, but when it is done in the middle of the road or in public it becomes harmful to others who would witness it and maybe even their childeren. The main idea is that it is not allowed to accuse or gossip about others, especially in the subject of fornication, but when 4 witness it it clearly needs to be dealt with,
(stoning is not a quranic law, and it says alot that such a harsh punishment is not even mentioned once in the koran but is applied to muslimeen, i mean if it was a punishment for muslimeen why does not Allah mention it even once in the quran while it being such a severe punishment but mentions only lashes....)Hypothetical situation
girl"so you love me?"
man"yes baby and i wish to marry you..."
-they start kissing--girls starts feeling his back and feels where he got lashed-
girl"get out of my house now you dirty fornicator!". -
The hypothesis probebly comes over as corney -(does it make you feel slightly ashamed? i wonder why lol )- but the point is that a fornicator who has been punished with 100 lashes will have a harder time fooling young women....that was the main idea behind the silly scene...anyway what does that face you put there mean? did you read the whole post and found something conflicting in it or is it just in connection to my "hypothetical situation"?
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silverstar wrote...
The hypothesis probebly comes over as corney -(does it make you feel slightly ashamed?'ashamed'? -S
silverstar wrote...
i wonder why )-beats me! -S
silverstar wrote...
but the point is that a fornicator who has been punished with 100 lashes will have a harder time fooling young women....that was the main idea behind the silly scene...do u always use such out-standing scenes to demonstrate ur main ideas? -S
silverstar wrote...
anyway what does that face you put there mean? did you read the whole post and found something conflicting in it or is it just in connection to my "hypothetical situation"?'face'? -S
lolz! p
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To your question wether i always use "such outstanding scenes" to explain my views the answer is no, i am not a film maker...but if that scene was worked out further and put in a movie it would show another view concerning the punishment of flogging a "die hard" adulterer.
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silverstar wrote...
To your question wether i always use "such outstanding scenes" to explain my views the answer is no, i am not a film maker...lolz!
silverstar wrote...
but if that scene was worked out further and put in a movie it would show another view concerning the punishment of flogging a "die hard" adulterer.cool! -)
i guess i am simply hallucinating! i think it really is high time i take my leave! -)