Can we be misguided and how?
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peace be upon you tanveer,
Firstly, welcome to the forum.
I agree that slw has physical and non-physical elements.
I liked your analysis but I felt points 3, 4 and 5 were weak. I feel you cannot conclusively deduce what you deduced based on the evidence you provided.
In brief
3) if there is unity in direction, it doesn't necessarily have to be physical.
4) sjd = acknowledge
5) people give zakat while bowing? rk3 = incline/humbleMy view can be found on my site.
Wakas
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Salaamun alaikum brother Wakas,
Thank you for your excellent comments. I am a big fan of your analysis of Al-Quran. I had already read your views on SLW before and your understanding of SLW is closest to my understanding on this forum. However a few points
- I agree that SJD can mean acknowledgement/submission and some ayat in Al-Quran support that meaning clearly
2219 Did you not see that to God submit what is in the heavens and what is in the Earth, and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees and what moves, and many of mankind, and many who have deserved the retribution
However the meaning of a word in a book depends on its context and its usage in other places which support that meaning. In 17108 Allah is clearly describing a physical SJD in which when Al-Quran is recited to the people with knowledge, they fall to their chins SJD. The ayat following also clearly means a physical SJD
17109 And they fall upon their chins crying, and it increases them in humility.
Falling on chins and crying are clearly physical acts. The 2 ayat following are clearly about SLW
17110 Say "Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names." And do not be too loud in thy contact-method, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.
17111 And Say "Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." And glorify Him greatly.and in SLW we are required to recite Al-Quran which can lead to a Mumin falling on the chin crying with humility while holding SLW which is a strong proof that a physical SJD can be part of SLW.
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Ruku' in 3824 is definitely physical and is a physical act of falling down kneeling that a Mumin can perform while seeking forgiveness from Allah and repenting. 555 shows that a Mumin can hold SLW and bring forth Zakat while raki'oun. Here I agree that Ruku' could mean being humble also but my point is that a Mumin can also fall down kneeling to seek forgiveness from Allah and repent while holding SLW thereby proving that a physical Ruku' can be part of SLW. This clearly is a strong proof that if we do a physical ruku' while holding SLW it cannot be against Al-Quran, provided it is "falling down kneeling" and not the traditional "bowing".
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I agree that my Qiblah argument is weak as Qiblah can be non physical also as proved by excellent arguments by brother Ayman on a thread elsewhere, however brother Hlatif has an excellent argument on another thread based on the meaning of "SHATR" that we can face towards the half of the Earth containg the Qiblah thereby implying a physical Qiblah. However that would not explain which way to face if someone is on Earth exactly opposite the location of Qiblah whether to face East or West, or if someone is in outer space or another planet. IMHO the direction to face is not that important according to Allah
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and he gives money out of love to the near relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves, and he holds the Salat, and brings forth Zakat; and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.
Interestingly 2177 could be another argument in favor of non physical Qiblah as it clearly says that holding Salat is part of piety but facing east or west is not piety thereby proving that facing east or west cannot be part of holding Salat !!!!
Peace,
Tanveer
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peace be upon you brother tanveer,
Ahh, I see what you are saying a physical SJD can be part of slw. I cant really argue against that. I thought you were implying its obligatory.
i should have said the core of SJD is to acknowledge, its not equal to it. i apologise, i was being brief because i had little time when making that post.
Whilst 3824 may be a physical RK3. I see no such indication from 555, especially not while in the act of slw (if you feel in this sign its an act). This to me is extremely clear, unless I'm missing something.
I cant recall the shatr argument by brother hussein. I am studying the term bayt at the moment, and I guess I will cover qibla in that. 2177 is pretty explicit in stating a specific direction is irrelevant.
on a side note, im not a big fan of 'aqimoo' being translated as 'hold' (normally used in front of slw). it is a very interesting word and i believe the connotation is uphold/maintain, i.e. its an ongoing thing, 'hold' to me seems to imply a one off event. Brother Anwar wrote a nice bit about it, in which he included the meaning 'vivify'.
Wakas
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Salaamun alaikum brother Wakas,
Thank you for your enlightening comments and clarifications. You are right with aqimoo meaning uphold. That is what I meant to write but in my hurry overlooked it and thank you for bringing that to my attention. It should be UPHOLD Salat instead of hold in my post.
You are also right that the Ruku' in 555 is not necessarily physical. My point is that while upholding Salat a Mumin can do the physical Ruku' of 3824 and fall down kneeling to seek forgiveness from Allah and repent, or uphold Salat while in a kneeling position and I dont think Allah will get upset over that and theoretically that will not contradict 555 either.
Finally 4102 is about upholding Salat and the words "and when they have prostrated" seem to imply that SJD is an obligatory part of Salat
?And if thou are with them and you hold the Salat for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard behind you; and let a group who has not yet ?Yusaloo? come and ?Yusaloo? with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. ( 4102)
Thank you once again and God bless,
Tanveer
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peace be upon you tanveer,
there is no slw mentioned in 3824, simple. to say one can do RK3 in SLW will require other evidence, and is not justified by this sign.
Finally 4102 is about upholding Salat and the words "and when they have prostrated" seem to imply that SJD is an obligatory part of Salat
Brother, are you honestly suggesting the example given in 4102 is your typical run of the mill group salat? It is cleary a special circumstance, thus one cannot extend it to every salat. Furthermore, its an assumption to say sjd is physical, as in prostration, in this sign. this will require further evidence.
unfortunately, no one who knows Arabic grammar has presented this sign in a manner just stating what it states with no interpretation of their own. this has been annoying in terms of progressing on this sign.
salat (small s) for me.
Wakas
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Peace Tanveermd,
In 17108 Allah is clearly describing a physical SJD in which when Al-Quran is recited to the people with knowledge, they fall to their chins SJD. The ayat following also clearly means a physical SJD
17109 And they fall upon their chins crying, and it increases them in humility.
Falling on chins and crying are clearly physical acts. The 2 ayat following are clearly about SLW
17110 Say "Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names." And do not be too loud in thy contact-method, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.
17111 And Say "Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." And glorify Him greatly.and in SLW we are required to recite Al-Quran which can lead to a Mumin falling on the chin crying with humility while holding SLW which is a strong proof that a physical SJD can be part of SLW.
But those who perform the sectarian physical "sujud" ritual do not fall to their chins and instead they fall to their foreheads. The only time that "forehead" is mentioned with "sujud" is in Chapter 96. It is mentioned in contrast to "sujud".
So interpreting "sujud" in 17107 as physical prostration is fine as long as one falls to the chin and NOT the forehead.
You also have to ask yourself about the primary meaning of "sujud". Has someone who physically prostrates but disobeys The God done "sujud"? Clearly not. So the primary meaning of "sujud" is definitely "obedience to The God" and not "physical prostration".
See also 19 58-59 where "salat" and "sujud" are clearly defined by what they are not. So we hear "losing "salat"" being put in contrast of "arranging the signs of The God" and "following desires" being put in contrast to "sujud". This should leave no doubt as to what "salat" and "sujud" are.
As for 4102, the context is clearly war. What do leaders and soldiers do at the time of war? They prepare for battle. Mental preparation is very important. The leader presents the battle plan, motivates the troops by reminding them of why they are fighting and of the the proper conduct during war and gives them the necessary commands. In any military after a commander gives instructions or issues a command, what do they do? They say "YES SIR". In other words, they obey/acknowledge. This is natural.
Naturally, it would not be advisable to have the whole army listen to the commander at the same time instead of keeping an eye on the enemy. Hence, 4102 gives some common sense advice.
- Ruku' in 3824 is definitely physical and is a physical act of falling down kneeling that a Mumin can perform while seeking forgiveness from Allah and repenting. 555 shows that a Mumin can hold SLW and bring forth Zakat while raki'oun. Here I agree that Ruku' could mean being humble also but my point is that a Mumin can also fall down kneeling to seek forgiveness from Allah and repent while holding SLW thereby proving that a physical Ruku' can be part of SLW. This clearly is a strong proof that if we do a physical ruku' while holding SLW it cannot be against Al-Quran, provided it is "falling down kneeling" and not the traditional "bowing".
Here again we notice that like the traditional "sujud", the traditional "ruku3" is different since it is physically impossible to "fall in bowing".
Again, you have to ask yourself what the primary meaning of "ruku3" is. Has someone who bowed or kneeled but at the same time is arrogant and not humble done "ruku3" to The God?
Thank you for your excellent observation about "qiblah" and pointing out the sign in 2177.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Salamun alaikum brothers Wakas, Ayman, all
Thank you for your excellent comments, criticisms, and clarifications. I do not think that the sectarian physical ritual prayer is the right way to uphold salat. I am just trying to make an effort to reconstruct how to uphold salat (specifically the timed salat of the mumineen) according to Al-Quran and exactly what the physical and non-physical components are. I agree that the primary meaning of sujud is to acknowledge/submit/obey and the primary meaning of ruku' is humility. So far the evidence from Al-Quran seems to indicate the following physical and non-physical requirements and components of salat
- Certain times of the day/night (2457, 11115, 1779). Evidence seems to indicate 2 times versus 3-5 times of the sectarians.
- The call to salat for group salat only (561, 6210). The call should use Quranic words only (sectarians include the word akbar and testify the messengership)
- Location could be temples or homes (2457, 340, 7219)
- Physical cleanliness and clarity of mind as prescribed in Al-Quran before salat (58, 444) (sectarians have a different version of wudu)
- Standing (preferable) to uphold salat (4102, 340, 2237, 4142) or ? kneeling position (? 555) (no evidence of the sectarian bowing position)
- Direction towards masjid alharam (institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden) (2144) which the evidence seems to indicate is non-physical (2177) (sectarians face their idol in makkah)
- Oration or recitation of ayat from Al-Quran in a moderate tone (17110,111). The oration should include Quranic words and ayat only and one should remember and glorify Allah only (2014, 17110,111)(sectarians are sometimes silent in group and almost always silent in individual salat and they recite certain words that are not part of Al-Quran, like akbar and amen, and they praise and remember certain messengers in addition to Allah)
- A physical sujud can be part of salat in which one falls to the chin and not to the forehead (17108,109)(sujud of sectarians is on the forehead)
- The whole process has to be performed with humility (ruku') and followed with submission/obedience/acknowledgement (sujud) (555, 399, 4102)
- During the process one should ponder/think/meditate on the signs (399)
It does seem there is no convincing evidence of a physical ruku' as part of salat in Al-Quran but maybe a physical kneeling position is allowed (it is impossible to perform a physical sujud on the chin without kneeling first). Also the physical direction is irrelevent and there is no evidence of multiple raka.
Only then will we be able to preserve and uphold ALSALAT ALWUSTA (the balanced/best salat) (2237) thereby bringing forth the purification (zakat).
I invite and request everyone to point out any errors and criticize and comment the above,
Peace and best wishes,
Tanveer
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Peace Hamza
"allahu akbar" is nowhere in quran. the only thing you can find is "dikhr allahi akbar" - the remembrance of god is great. But you do find the name alKebir.
To bow is stated but can be understood as to submit to the will of god. It's always a question of interpretation.
lk
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Peace Hamza
"allahu akbar" is nowhere in quran. the only thing you can find is "dikhr allahi akbar" - the remembrance of god is great. But you do find the name alKebir.
To bow is stated but can be understood as to submit to the will of god. It's always a question of interpretation.
lk
Peace Elke,
Thanks for the reply... D -
Salaamun alaikum brother JHamza,
According to Al-Qur'aan you FALL raki'an, so it cannot possibly be a bowing position. Ruku' is also mental meaning humility.
Check out the following link; in that article scroll down to the portion talking about ruku
http//free-minds.org/articles/hadith/refute2.htm
Excerpt from the above link
Physical ruku? is not bowing. According to the Quran one is to go down and sit on the knees. See 555 and 3824
But your ally is God, His messenger, and those who believed who keep up the ?salat?, and give the ?zakat?, while they are ?raki?oun.? (555)
How can one give ?zakat? while bowing? Therefore ruku? means to sit on the knees or kneeling.
?? he fell ?raki?an??? (3824)
One cannot fall into bowing, however, one can fall to his knees. Therefore the bowing position has no support in the Quran.
For the Kabeer vs Akbar debate with convincing resolution in favor of Kabeer, see the following link
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3075
May Allah guide us all,
Tanveer
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peace everyone
i still feel the same way that servant does about salat. I used to do it the sunni way, and sometimes it did bring me great peace.
The reason for that, and i'm pretty sure i know it, was that i believed i had done something good. I had devoted my time and energy to God. That's why i felt good. I knew that if i performed the ritual, God would solve my problems and set everything straight.
And the reason that only happened somtimes is because other times i only did it because i had to. The intent wasn't there. I wasn't doing it to be close to God, i was just doing it because i had to.
So that feeling of peace wasn't because of that ritual, but because of me knowing that i had been close to God and God is there to help me no matter what.
so in the end, i dont think salat has to be somthing physical (like bowing down and reciting arabic words), it could just be like taking some time away from our everyday lives to admire the natural beauty of this world.
Or something like that. Anything that would bring us closer to God.But doing these things probably won't have the effect that ritual salat has because we don't have that strong belief in them that we had on the ritual.
the 'fact' that ritual salat brings 'peace' is ingrained in our minds, and it'll be hard to get rid of it.
