Islamic Calendar Article
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Salaamun alaikum all,
What The Sufi claims are "FACTS" are not necessarily facts. According to the excellent research done by Ayman, there is archeological and historical evidence that Prophet Muhammad was born around 550 AD instead of 570 AD and that pushes his death back by many years. Please see the following link for details
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3875
Some excerpts
Here is a very interesting quote from Jacob's manuscripts that has significant implications on the traditional Sunni accounts
"All we have regarding Haggar (Islam) are the notices that 'Muhammad (Mhmt) went down for trade to the lands of Palestine, Arabia and Syrian Phoenicia,' that 'the kingdom of the Arabians (Arbaye), those whom we call Tayyaye, began when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year' (620-21CE), and that 'the Tayyaye began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine.'"
What is interesting here is that Jacob's dating of the events pushes back the date of the beginning of Arab conquests by at least 12 years. According to the traditional accounts, in the year 620CE Islam was still in its infancy and the prophet still hasn't even emigrated from so-called Makkah. According the traditions, the Muslim kingship over Arabia wasn't even established until 632CE and the raids on the Romans in Palestine didn't begin until afterwards. The discrepancy in the dates between the hearsay-based traditions and the archeological manuscript-based eye witness accounts places serious doubts over the entire traditional history of events.
Traditionalists contend that the prophet was born in the year of Abraha's expedition to Arabia. The year of Abraha's expedition as provided on the Sabaic inscription of Abraha translates into about 550CE. This is 20 years before the traditional 570CE birth date of the prophet. As we saw above, the dates we get from Jacob of Edessa are at least 12 years prior to traditional accounts. I think that given the evidence, we can reasonably say that the prophet lived at least 12-20 years prior to when traditionalists claim he lived. This may indicate that the present so-called Islamic calendar is based on an event that took place after the death of the prophet.
So the so called "FACTS" in The Sufi's post are not really facts at all and in no way prove that Ramadhan always coincided with Chislev in the time of Prophet Muhammad.
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Salaamun alaikum JHamza,
Allah in Al-Qur'aan recommends clear cut cosmic phenomenon for timing of events rather than a particular calendar.
Ayman's article is more accurate and makes scientific and logical sense. For a debate on that topic with convincing and logical answers check out the following link and follow the discussion to the end
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2757
Hope that helps,
Tanveer
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Salaamun alaikum JHamza,
Allah in Al-Qur'aan recommends clear cut cosmic phenomenon for timing of events rather than a particular calendar.
Ayman's article is more accurate and makes scientific and logical sense. For a debate on that topic with convincing and logical answers check out the following link and follow the discussion to the end
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2757
Hope that helps,
Tanveer
Peace Tanveer,
Ive read the article but Im still not 100% convinced that they have the correct meaning for shar(sp?) and even if the article is correct about it being the full moon of scorching heat,which I am aware is the correct meaning of ramadhan..theres still no reason to abandon a calendar,the Quran states 12 months in a yr,it mentions fasting during a specific month all implying a calendar system.
Something like thisNoteI have the equivilent Jewish months first just as a comparison and to show to similarities.This calendar outline is for secular use,while the religous dates"The Fast,Pilgrimage and restrictions" can be observed based on Quranic and scientic proof.)Tishri(Sp/Oc) *Dhul Hijja(same as the Jewish month with the feast of Tabernacles - a pilgrimage festival)
Heshvan (Oc/No) Muharram
Kislev (No/De) Safar
Tevet (De/Ja) Rabi al awal
Shevat (Ja/Fe) Rabi al thani
Adar (Fe/Mr) Jumada al awal(First Spring)
Nisan (Mr/Ap) Jumada al thani(Second Spring)
Iyar (Ap/My) Rajab al Murajjab
Sivan (My/Jn) Sha'ban(same name as the Hebrew)
Tammuz (Jn/Ju) *Ramadan(moon of scorching heat)
Av (Ju/Au) *Shawwal al Mukarram
Elul(Au/Sp) *Dhul al QidaBased on name comparisons,timing of ramadan,and meanings of Arab months.
*Restricted months of Quran. Pilgrimage would occur in these months beginning on the full moon and last 3 days.
Full Moon of Scorching Heat and the 10 day Fast would fall in late Ramadan or Early Shawwal al Mukkaram,based on when the full moon after the summer solstice occurs. -
Salaamun aaikum brother JHamza,
Al-Qur'aan does not state that there are 12 months in a year but states that the COUNT of shahr is 12, meaning you count only 12 full moons. If it means months then how do you know how many days are in a month according to The God ? If it is 30 days then there are not 12 months in a year but 12 months and five days and The God would have said "12 months AND five days" or would have said "12 months and 1/6" and that would have made clear the number of days in a month.
However, shahr does not mean month but means full moon, and then you would have a logical and clear translation meaning that THE COUNT of full moons is 12, and not the absolute NUMBER of shahr. The "full moon" translation gives you a precise and accurate and logical way of timing. "month" would be vague and inaccurate as we will not know how many days in a month according to Al-Qur'aan.
Hope that helps,
Peace,
Tanveer
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Okay in the article it states that the correct translation is crescent moons but it also says it can mean the start or the ending of the crescent,which is it? I think its the beginning if it really means crescent.
- They ask thee concerning the crescent moons. Say They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back It is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors And fear Allah That ye may prosper.....
In to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men; that would be a secular calendar based on the siteing of the crescent moon..
Thats what I am trying to figure out a correct calendar for people based on the Quran...I cant see how its referring to 12 full moons in 936 instead of 12 months...Because this contrdicts the fact that sometimes theres 13 full moons and not 12...
- The count of the full-moons with The God is twelve full-moons in The God's book the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct obligation; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set-up partners collectively as they fight you collectively and know that The God is with the forethoughtful.
The translations below make better since compared to the fact that we have 13 full moons sometimes while the above translation contradicts this fact.
The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year)- so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein, and fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.
The count of months, as far as GOD is concerned, is twelve. This has been GOD's law, since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred. This is the perfect religion; you shall not wrong your souls (by fighting) during the Sacred Months. However, you may declare all-out war against the idol worshipers (even during the Sacred Months), when they declare all-out war against you, and know that GOD is on the side of the righteous.
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Salaamun alaikum JHamza,
Looks like you have not read the entire debate at the link I posted for you in the other thread. Here it is again
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2757
Please read the entire disussion until the end. Crescents according to Al-Qur'aan are used as a timing mechanism to time the END of a period. The arguments proving that are presented in detail in the above link.
One suggestion for an islamic calendar would be to use a solar calendar (with islamic names for month if so desired) and to use the full moon to mark the START of the FIRST month. Subsequently full moons will be used only to mark the start of the various islamic events like hajj, and the crescents to mark the END of those periods. So it would be a solar-lunar calendar. The calendar could arbitrarily be started from the full moon of Ramadhan.
An alternative would be to use the full moons for the start and end of each month, the crescents being used to mark the END of various events like hajj, and to count only 12 full moons in a year. If 13th full moon occurs in a year, that full moon will be ignored and not counted, so that particular year will have a long 12th month. That way all months will always correspond to the same seasons.
Peace,
Tanveer
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Salaamun alaikum JHamza,
Looks like you have not read the entire debate at the link I posted for you in the other thread. Here it is again
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2757
Please read the entire disussion until the end. Crescents according to Al-Qur'aan are used as a timing mechanism to time the END of a period. The arguments proving that are presented in detail in the above link.
One suggestion for an islamic calendar would be to use a solar calendar (with islamic names for month if so desired) and to use the full moon to mark the START of the FIRST month. Subsequently full moons will be used only to mark the start of the various islamic events like hajj, and the crescents to mark the END of those periods. So it would be a solar-lunar calendar. The calendar could arbitrarily be started from the full moon of Ramadhan.
An alternative would be to use the full moons for the start and end of each month, the crescents being used to mark the END of various events like hajj, and to count only 12 full moons in a year. If 13th full moon occurs in a year, that full moon will be ignored and not counted, so that particular year will have a long 12th month. That way all months will always correspond to the same seasons.
Peace,
Tanveer
Peace Tanveer,sorry Ill have to try and read it at another time its to confusing.
Understood about the crescents thanks!
Months cant begin at the full moon or new moons,because the yr will fall out of sink because theres only on average 29 days between each moon..It would have to be a calendar with some months having 30 days and some months with 31 to equal 365 days and for the yrs to meet.If you ignore the 13th month in a calendar with months of 29 and 30 days you wind up with a yr out of sink unless you add an extra day like in the calendar we use today..or an extra month like the Jews do.
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Peace brother JHamza,
Yes I agree, I was not clear in my previous post. Let me rephrase.
The year will be solar with 12 months just like the regular solar year. It could be the same as the present Gregorian solar year with maybe different names OR the year could also be started from the summer solstice with 12 months just like the Gregorian calendar of 31 and 30 days with one month of 28 or 29 days, ending with the summer solstice. Either way the first full moon after the summer solstice will be the full moon of Ramadhan and will start the period of abstinence which will end with the first crescent after that full moon. The first four full moons after the summer solstice starting with the full moon of Ramadhan will be the restricted full moons and the restricted period would end with the crescent after the fourth full moon.
12 full moons will be counted in every year (from one summer solstice to the next). So every year the 13th full moon from the previous summer solstice will be the first full moon after the new summer soltice and will be the full moon of Ramadhan. Every few years there will be 13 full moons between 2 summer solstices; in that case the 13th moon will be ignored and not counted and so always the first full moon after summer solstice will mark the start of abstinence. This way the full moon of Ramadhan will always occur after the summer solstice and the full moons will remain in sync with the seasons.
The alternative would be to use a lunar calendar starting from full moon. The summer solstice will also be calculated every year. The year could arbitrarily be started with the first full moon after summer solstice which will be the full moon of Ramadhan. Every year 12 full moons will be counted from one summer solstice to the next and therefore there will be 12 months between 2 summer solstices. Sometimes there will be 13 full moons between 2 summer solstices and that year an extra lunar month will be added to the calendar after the 12th month just like the Jewish calendar. That extra 13th month however will not be counted so instead of having 13 months there will still be 12 months with a long 12th month of about 58 days. That way the lunar months will remain in sync with the solar seasons.
Hope this is clearer,
Peace,
Tanveer
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Peace tanveermd,
Yes that is clear..thanks!Peace brother JHamza,
Yes I agree, I was not clear in my previous post. Let me rephrase.
The year will be solar with 12 months just like the regular solar year. It could be the same as the present Gregorian solar year with maybe different names OR the year could also be started from the summer solstice with 12 months just like the Gregorian calendar of 31 and 30 days with one month of 28 or 29 days, ending with the summer solstice. Either way the first full moon after the summer solstice will be the full moon of Ramadhan and will start the period of abstinence which will end with the first crescent after that full moon. The first four full moons after the summer solstice starting with the full moon of Ramadhan will be the restricted full moons and the restricted period would end with the crescent after the fourth full moon.
12 full moons will be counted in every year (from one summer solstice to the next). So every year the 13th full moon from the previous summer solstice will be the first full moon after the new summer soltice and will be the full moon of Ramadhan. Every few years there will be 13 full moons between 2 summer solstices; in that case the 13th moon will be ignored and not counted and so always the first full moon after summer solstice will mark the start of abstinence. This way the full moon of Ramadhan will always occur after the summer solstice and the full moons will remain in sync with the seasons.
The alternative would be to use a lunar calendar starting from full moon. The summer solstice will also be calculated every year. The year could arbitrarily be started with the first full moon after summer solstice which will be the full moon of Ramadhan. Every year 12 full moons will be counted from one summer solstice to the next and therefore there will be 12 months between 2 summer solstices. Sometimes there will be 13 full moons between 2 summer solstices and that year an extra lunar month will be added to the calendar after the 12th month just like the Jewish calendar. That extra 13th month however will not be counted so instead of having 13 months there will still be 12 months with a long 12th month of about 58 days. That way the lunar months will remain in sync with the solar seasons.
Hope this is clearer,
Peace,
Tanveer
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With this system,we would begin the new year on the Summer Soltice.The Fast of Ramadan would begin on the Full Moon(1st FM after the SS) of Ramadan.There would be 7 months with 30 days and 5 with 31 days,which equals a total of 365 days between each Summer Solstice.
*RamadanJul/Aug (30 days)
*Shawwal al MukarramAug/Sep (30 days)
*Dhul al QidaSep/Oct (30 days)
*Dhul HijjaOct/Nov (30 days)
MuharramNov/Dec (30 days)
SafarDec/Jan (30 days)
Rabi al awalJan/Feb (30 days)
Rabi al thaniFeb/Mar (31 days)
Jamada al awal(First Spring)Mar/Apr (31 days)
Jamada al thani(Second Spring)Apr/May (31 days)
Rajab al MurajjabMay/Jun (31 days)
Sha'banJun/Jul (31 days)*Restricted months of Quran. Pilgrimage would occur in these months beginning on the full moon and last 3 days.
Only problem I see is concerning a leap day from time to time,would we have to add one or detract one?
Whats the meanings of each of the months besides ramadan and jamada?
MuharramNov/Dec (30 days)
SafarDec/Jan (30 days)
Rabi al awalJan/Feb (30 days)
Rabi al thaniFeb/Mar (31 days)
Jamada al awal(First Spring)Mar/Apr (31 days)
Jamada al thani(Second Spring)Apr/May (31 days)
Rajab al MurajjabMay/Jun (31 days)
Sha'banJun/Jul (31 days)
*RamadanJul/Aug (30 days)
*Shawwal al MukarramAug/Sep (30 days)
*Dhul al QidaSep/Oct (30 days)
*Dhul HijjaOct/Nov (30 days)*Restricted months of Quran. Pilgrimage would occur in these months beginning on the full moon and last for 3 days. Ramadan would be the 1st month of the Religous Calendar whereas The the Quraysh tribe determined things by Winter/Summer therefore Muharram could be the start of the secular yr.....and the names could be changed around to go with the seasons.
Like this
MuharramNov/Dec (30 days)
Rabi al awal(FirstWinter)Dec/Jan (30 days)
Rabi al thani(Second Winter)Jan/Feb (30 days)
SafarFeb/Mar (31 days)
Jamada al awal(First Spring)Mar/Apr (31 days)
Jamada al thani(Second Spring)Apr/May (31 days)
Rajab al MurajjabMay/Jun (31 days)
Sha'banJun/Jul (31 days)
*RamadanJul/Aug (30 days)
*Shawwal al MukarramAug/Sep (30 days)
*Dhul al QidaSep/Oct (30 days)
*Dhul HijjaOct/Nov (30 days) -
Huwa allathee jaAAala alshshamsadiyaan waalqamara nooran waqaddarahu manazilalitaAAlamoo AAadada alssineena waalhisabama khalaqa Allahu thalika illa bialhaqqiyufassilu al-ayati liqawmin yaAAlamoona
It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for her; that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). Nowise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand.
I believe this is referring to a solar yr,reckoning the yr by the sun and the use of the moon for the beginning of the months.Compare with Surah 2189.
Yas-aloonaka AAani al-ahillati qul hiya mawaqeetulilnnasi waalhajji walaysa albirrubi-an ta/too albuyoota min thuhooriha walakinnaalbirra mani ittaqa wa/too albuyoota min abwabihawaittaqoo Allaha laAAallakum tuflihoona
They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back It is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors And fear Allah That ye may prosper.
From the above we can see that new moons are set to mark the beginning of months and for us to know the beginning of Pilgrimage.Not Full moons.
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Salaamun alaikum brother JHamza,
I somehow missed this post of years and hence the delayed reply.
Huwa allathee jaAAala alshshamsadiyaan waalqamara nooran waqaddarahu manazilalitaAAlamoo AAadada alssineena waalhisabama khalaqa Allahu thalika illa bialhaqqiyufassilu al-ayati liqawmin yaAAlamoona
It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for her; that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). Nowise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand.
I believe this is referring to a solar yr,reckoning the yr by the sun and the use of the moon for the beginning of the months.
From 105, it can be seen that the learning of the number of years and calculation are helped by either or both the sun and the moon, however there is no mention of a specific stage of the moon. Let us see the other verses on this topic
696 Initiator of morning and Maker of the night to reside in; and the sun and the moon for counting. Such is the measure of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.
Here also either or both the sun and the moon can be used for counting.
1712 And We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day to see-in, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the count. And everything We have detailed completely.
Given that night and day is certainly determined by the sun and not the moon, the sign in 1712 leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is solar.
1247 He said "You will plant regularly for seven years, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat."
1248 "Then will come seven after that which are severe in drought and which will consume all that you plant except for what you have stored."
1249 "Then after that will come a year in which the people will have abundant rain and which they will be able to produce once again."More confirmation is in 1247-49 that talk about the "year" definitely as a solar year because of reference to agricultural cycles and planning of crops that would have to be done according to seasons that don't change from one year to the next.
They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back It is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors And fear Allah That ye may prosper.
From the above we can see that new moons are set to mark the beginning of months and for us to know the beginning of Pilgrimage.Not Full moons.
First of all the arabic word used is "ahila(t)" which is the plural of "hilal" and according to ALL Arabic lexicons it means CRESCENT MOONS which are the moon in BOTH its beginning and its end. Most translators ignore this fact and instead claim that "hilal"/"ahila(t)" means only the new moon which is the incorrect translation.
So the correct translation would be
2189 They ask you regarding the CRESCENT MOONS, Say "They are a timing mechanism for the people as well as for the hajj." And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.
According to the corrected translation, crescent moons in general (both the thinning crescent and the widening crescent) can serve as timing devices.
The "ahila(t)" (crescent moons) are described as the "mawaqeet" (timing mechanism) for people and the hajj. There are 24-26 "ahila(t)" in a solar year. "Mawaqeet" does not mean ONLY the timing of the beginning but it can also mean timing of the end.
One cannot use "hilal" to time both the start and end of the several 40 day periods talked about in the great reading or the 10 day period of "hajj" and of abstinence. Hence, it must be that the "hilal" in those cases is used to time either the end or the beginning. Given the evidence, it is most likely to be used as a timing device for the end of "hajj". Remember 2189 and the example of ENTERING through the obvious/clear and apparent one front door ("the obvious one full-moon") and not the non-obvious back of the house ("the unobvious crescents"). However, there is nothing that says that we can't EXIT the house through the unobvious back doors.
It is exactly 10 days from the full moon to the thinning crescent. So the period of "hajj" would start at the full moon and end at the thinning crescent.