Jinns from the Quran
-
Peace be upon you Ayman,
I cant believe I missed that post brother. Excellent! I have responded more detailed in that thread.
-
I believe jinn are real creatures, I believe satan is real,I believe Angels(hebrew and greek names mean messengers)
This is all I have to say about it at them time..If others believe they are all energy/fantasies of people then thats them,even though these energies are believed to have been created before men..etc
peace
thoughts were created before men weren't they?
-
Peace,
there are others who share the beliefs u stated above! and i must say u have done a pretty neat job with those verses and they are quite conclusive in their verdict of djinns and humans being seperate entities! -)
however the word malaika has its roots in 'mlk' so i dont think 'messenger' would be a good choice for translation (in arabic), though they might serve as messengers of god as and when god wills them to! -) 'mlk' has something to do with control/possessing/owning/dominion! however, in usage we differentiate between who is controlling/possessing etc! as such a queen is 'malika' in arabic and a king is 'malik'! likewise, in singular angel is 'malak' and plural 'malaika'!
It is good that you know that "malaika" are essentially controllers and not some mythical creatures.
You say that "jinn" are separate entities. Please tell us what those are because I don't believe in ghosts.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Elena,
I believe jinn are real creatures, I believe satan is real,I believe Angels(hebrew and greek names mean messengers)
This is all I have to say about it at them time,what's the use/guidance you have found in believing that literally?
As far as I can see on this thread, JHamza doesn't seem to know what "jinn" are literally. I asked him what he thinks they are and he didn't answer.
Most people who claim to believe in "jinn" think that they are somekind of ghosts. Also, we are never asked in the great reading to believe in "jinn" for obvious reasons. In fact, those who believe in "jinn" are clearly misguided (3441).
Peace,
Ayman
-
Salaam Ayman, all,
My current view on the jinn issue is that they are a trait/behavior/intangible side of humans, or a certain group of humans. Because every single little thing between the heaven and the earth is created by Him, I believe also that even our imaginations are the result of something that He created in the first place. Thus, I have no problem accepting that jinns are not creatures in the same sense as humans are creatures (you know, two arms, two legs, probably have horns, etc).
And, I found the following ayats to be educating for me in regards with this jinn issue.
I did not create the Jinn and the humans except to serve Me.
First of all, Allah said that humans and jinns are to serve Him. Of course we all agree to that. But the following ayat explains something else
A month in early autumn, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever of you can observe the season, then let him fast therein. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
Allah explicitly said that the quran was meant for the people. Why werent't the jinns included? I mean how are they suppose to serve Him appropriately if the quran, a guidance to all, was not even meant for them. Well, another ayat, as my understanding goes, explains this nicely
Say "It has been inspired to me that a group of Jinn were listening." They said "We have heard a magnificent Quran!"
"It guides to what is correct, so we believed in it, and we will not set up anyone with our Lord."So, it turns out that some of the jinns receive the guidance and actually believe in the quran and follow the true guidance.
This brings me to my current understanding that the quran was also meant for jinns. Thus, jinns must also be a subset of the people mention in 2185. As I understand it, people means us humans.
This leaves me with either jinns being a certain group of people who likes to be hidden from the common people, or that the jinns are our own traits. I have not made up my mind about this yet. Unlike the concept shaythan which I view as a human trait, and malaikat which are not angels in the English language (or my own language) sense, I am still weighing the best understanding for jinns.
So bro Ayman, may I ask you what make you so positive that the jinns are not a group of people whose existence is, most of the time, concealed from most people, but a human trait/intangible aspect (fantasies)? Many thanks in advance.
=adley=
-
Peace Adley,
So bro Ayman, may I ask you what make you so positive that the jinns are not a group of people whose existence is, most of the time, concealed from most people, but a human trait/intangible aspect (fantasies)? Many thanks in advance.
How can they be concealed from most people? So who do they appear to?
Also, we are clearly told that those going to hell will be going there as a result of those exceeding in rebellion (shayateen) that are "linked to them"
- And we assign to them linked companions so they decorate for them what is between their hands (the present) and what is behind them (the past). And the saying is true on them in nations that passed before them from the fantasies and the humans that they are losers.
4336-38. And whoever withdraws from remembering The Almighty, we assign to him one who is exceeding in rebellion so he becomes linked to him. And they hinder from the path and deduce that they are guided. Until when he comes to us, he says "I wish the distance of the two sunrises was between you and me (i.e., you were on the other side of the earth), what a miserable one who is linked."
- And those who spend their wealth to show off and they don't trust in The God and the last day and whoever the one exceeding in rebellion is linked to, what a bad link.
We also know that the majority of people are going to hell. So most have those exceeding in rebellion (shaytan) "jinn" linked to them. So how can we say that "jinn" are a different group of people concealed from most people when we know that most people have those exceeding in rebellion (shaytan) "jinn" linked to them?
Also, what do you have to do with those "concealed group of people"? How are all the passages in the great reading talking about them relevant to you? Or are those passages irrelevant to most people since they are "concealed from most people"?
I think that we all need to look inside us and really think about this. Don't you want to be rich? Suppose you were above the law or there was no justice system to punish you, then will you steal $1 Million to be rich and make your fantasy come true? If you do then you have let your fantasy control you and it became exceeding in rebellion and thus your next fantasy will be about $10 Million. On the other hand, you can control your fantasy and make it obey you with the truth. Maybe this is not a relevant or good example. But each one of us should think of an example that is relevant to him or her and what fundamentally makes them do wrong. The answer will NEVER be a "concealed group of people" no more than it is "ghosts".
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Ayman... question for you. If jinns and angels are such creatures of our imagination as you claim, what do you make of heaven and hell? Must these concepts be taken in the exact literal sense, or can they not be allegories too? Or could it be that heaven and hell are actually actually the same, but because of the totally different perspective of what is important and enjoyable, it will feel like hell to some and like heaven to some, for eternity?
-
Peace Claurianta,
Ayman... question for you. If jinns and angels are such creatures of our imagination as you claim
The "jinn" are as real as your hands and legs. In the same way that you can't hold something without your hands, you also can't invent and create anything without your fantasy. In fact, unlike "ghosts" and "hidden group of people" one can measure and detect brainwaves associated with imagination and fantasy. So what I am proposing is far more real and concrete than anything that I have seen proposed about what the "jinn" are.
As for "angels", it depends on what you mean.
If you mean biblical creatures with white robes and halos over their heads then these are the product of your fantasy (jinn) and thus are not real. The most you can do to make them real is create a statue of them based on this fantasy.
On the other hand, if you mean controllers (Arabic "malaika"), then those are ANY creature who The God gave control to. They can do things like see the future (230). The original "jinn"/fantasy was one of the controllers but when he didn't obey, The God took away that status from him.
what do you make of heaven and hell? Must these concepts be taken in the exact literal sense, or can they not be allegories too? Or could it be that heaven and hell are actually actually the same, but because of the totally different perspective of what is important and enjoyable, it will feel like hell to some and like heaven to some, for eternity?
I think that you are making some very good points and asking a great question. This is exactly the kind of discussion and progress that is enabled when we reach a better understanding of a concept such as "jinn". Before, they were "ghosts" or "hidden people" that have nothing to do with us.
You give a great example about suffering that we can see around us. For example, take a human and drop him in the middle of the ocean and he will suffer and eventually drown. Take a fish and do the same thing and it will be happy. So depending on the perspective it can be suffering or joy.
I touched a little bit on how the understanding of heaven and hell may begin to improve as a result of the findings about "jinn" in the article
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5122
Please give me your feedback on the observation that "jinn" are the fuel of hell and what could that mean as well as on my discussion of the meaning of "jannat" in the conclusion.
Today I thought about what the word "alyawm alakhir" could mean. The word "yawm" in the great reading means day or more generally a period of time. So perhaps literally "alyawm alakhir" could mean "the last period of time". So what happens after that? No more time?
The general feeling one gets from the descriptions of heaven and hell is that while heaven is an unconstrained environment, hell is a constrained one. However, this doesn't mean that they are in different places.
As an interesting example, consider an ant on a thin 1D wire. In its universe it can only move in one dimension back and forth. On the other hand, we can move in 3D across multiple wires so we are not constrained and to the ant it would seem as if we are moving across multiple universes in no time.
You can take this even further. Consider this 1D theoretical wire and ant. Because it is only one dimensional (it has no width) you can endlessly curl an infinitely expanding 1D wire onto a tiny 2D space such as a disc. So you can fit the 1D ant's infinite 1D universe onto a very small 2D object. So from a higher less constrained dimension, the constrained universe can be very small, despite being able to fit an infinite number of 1D ants.
Perhaps the absence of the concept of time in heaven and hell is what gives it eternity. But we are so used to time that we can't even imagine what it would be like to live in a world without it. We are also so used to living in a 3D universe that we can't imagine what it would be like to perhaps live in a less constrained 4D universe or a perhaps more constrained 2D universe.
On thing is for sure, hell is worse than you imagine and in heaven you are so free that you don't even need imagination there. This should make us all more scared given the unavoidable fact that most are going to eternal hell.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Salaam Ayman,
Thanks for your answer, and especially your questions about my understanding. I think I will need some re-wiring to do.
How can they be concealed from most people? So who do they appear to?
If I go by my understanding that jinn are physical entities, then they are those who are hard to reach, either in status, in intelligence, in power, or in abilities. They can be all around us and oftenly be seen (sorry about my mistakes in the previous post), however their concealment is something to do with the items I listed above.
We also know that the majority of people are going to hell. So most have those exceeding in rebellion (shaytan) "jinn" linked to them. So how can we say that "jinn" are a different group of people concealed from most people when we know that most people have those exceeding in rebellion (shaytan) "jinn" linked to them?
Point taken. I notice my contradiction if understanding that jinns are "physically" concealed from most people. Thanks.
Also, what do you have to do with those "concealed group of people"? How are all the passages in the great reading talking about them relevant to you? Or are those passages irrelevant to most people since they are "concealed from most people"?
Well, they are relevant if "concealed" means what I have written above. Thus, not concealed physically.
I think that we all need to look inside us and really think about this.
Agree. Well, understanding jinns as something not physical is more logical to me now actually.
Don't you want to be rich?
I do!!!
On the other hand, you can control your fantasy and make it obey you with the truth.
Yes, I can now understand your point better regarding jinns being fantasies. I may need to weigh this further though to verify it and see what I end up with.
Maybe this is not a relevant or good example. But each one of us should think of an example that is relevant to him or her and what fundamentally makes them do wrong. The answer will NEVER be a "concealed group of people" no more than it is "ghosts".
I know ghosts is an impossible meaning of jinns of course. However, I still have to re-read regarding fantasies as a meaning of jinns. I am still unsure how to read surah 72 if jinns are fantasies. I can understand it if I read it allegorically of course, but I have to take my time in this.
I hope this helps.
It truly does. Many thanks for your patience and knowledge bro.
=adley=
-
Peace be upon you all,
I wan to discuss this understanding of being LINKED to those exceeding in rebellion when you forget the God.
We are talking about verbal and visual thoughts (intellect and imagination).
When we forget the truth that thoughts are not "us", we many times follow the thoughts that enter our heads, we become companions with them.
FOr example, someone steps on your foot and does not say excuse me. The thought might come that "he just disrespted me" along with the vision of you beating the guy up. What an EVIL companion! Later when you are in jail for beating the man up or accidentally killing him, and after the EMOTION has passed, you are so sorry and you wish you were far away from such thoughts and images.
Many people say about such events "and the next thing I remember...". It is a state of HYPNOTISM really.
Many of us beleive in these thoughts and images that come to us that we become ONE WITH the thoughts and images and therefore do not question them. We have to work on seperating the "I" who we are with the thoughts that come to us.
But as Ayman said alreay, this topic is one that really must be reflected upon. It is easily verified once you take the time to go over life scenarios.