How Did it Come to This? (Part 2)
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peace Tanveer,
maybe they are 'fanciful/hidden beings' of our imagination.
No one has any proof that these 'hidden beings' exist. And even if they do, what good does the quran do us by telling us about them? what do you learn from a story about these beings and some person living thousands of years ago?
what exactly is your understanding of jinn and those verses?Waleed
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Peace Waleed,
maybe they are 'fanciful/hidden beings' of our imagination.
It would be nice if you can give some evidence from Qur'aan to back up your opinions.
Imaginary beings/beings of our imagination do not have factual knowledge (3715, cannot serve The God (5156), are not actual soldiers (2117), don't work for Solomon and make statues and pots (3412-13), do not actually talk (2739), do not have nations and tribes (4125, 5533) and will not have fire as dwelling (612. If they are imaginary then humans must be imaginary too as humans have also been mentioned in similar context as jinn in the great reading !!
No one has any proof that these 'hidden beings' exist.
No one had any proof 1000 years ago about many universal/cosmic phenomenon; does not mean they do not exist (electromagnetic waves, black holes, subatomic particles etc.). For me The God's words are enough proof.
And even if they do, what good does the quran do us by telling us about them? what do you learn from a story about these beings and some person living thousands of years ago?
I would encourage you to read the Qur'aan and look up ALL the signs mentioning "jinn" and The God willing you will start to have an idea of why He is telling us about them and what we should learn from it. Then you can use your hearing, eyesight and mind and reason and logic to arrive at your own understanding under The God's guidance. Let me know what conclusions you arrive at after that entire process and please give some evidences from the great reading to back them up.
what exactly is your understanding of jinn and those verses?
I am still in the process of having an understanding about "jinn" according to the great reading and unfortunately do not have an EXACT understanding yet.
Peace,
Tanveer
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A fantasy is clearly a thought and not a being. In my understanding "jinn" could mean "fantastic/hidden beings" or "fanciful/hidden beings" rather than "fantasies", as its usage in the great reading indicates a "being" rather than a "thought". For example
I am also of the opinion that jinn are beings, human beings.
See
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4435
http//www.parvez-video.com/article_jinn.aspPeace
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Peace be upon you Tanveer,
A fantasy is clearly a thought and not a being.
Says who? I have come to learn and VERIFY that our thoughts are not part of "us". They work independent of "us", although we have the power to take control of them. Sometmes they come to us "out of the blue". If you sit back and just watch your thoughts, you will verify just like I did that we do not really orchestrate the thoughts that come into your sphere of awareness. Regarding the term "being", all of creation is but a manifestation of the ONE being, the SUPREME being. So thoughts are not who we are, so they are seperate from what we call "I".
In my understanding "jinn" could mean "fantastic/hidden beings" or "fanciful/hidden beings" rather than "fantasies", as its usage in the great reading indicates a "being" rather than a "thought". For example
37158 And they invented a kinship between Him and the Jinn. But the Jinn know that they will be gathered. Here Jinn appears to be "beings" rather than "thoughts". How can a "fantasy" know that it will be gathered ?
What we are dealing with here is the programming tool of the human called the imagination, or the visual intellect (as oppossed to the verbal intellect). However, I have no fully grasped this verse, so I cannot respond to this one.
5156 I did not create the Jinn and the humans except to serve Me.
How can a "fantasy" serve The God ? Here Jinn and humans are used in the same context as "beings" rather than "thoughts" with the ability to serve.
The visual images of the imaginaton are being personified in order to help us understand the process. We are not being informed of some alien life form that we can never verify.
2717 And Solomon's soldiers were gathered, comprising of humans and Jinn and birds, for they were to be spread out.
How can "fantasies" be soldiers ? The context clearly indicates they are "beings" rather than "thoughts".
If you think in terms of the imagination, then that might bring clarity to this for you. Your imaginstaion is one of your most powerful "weapons"!
3412 And for Solomon the wind was given, traveling one month coming and one month going, and We caused a spring of tar to flow for him. And from among the Jinn are those that worked for him by his Lord's leave; and any one of them who turns from Our commands, We shall cause him to taste the retribution of the Fire.
3413 They made for him what he desired of enclosures, and statues, and pools of deep reservoirs, and heavy pots. "O family of David, work to show thanks." Only a few of My servants are appreciative.
3414 Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the Jinn realised that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.How can "fantasies" work ? (3412). How can fantasies make statues and pots ? (3413). How can fantasies realize ? (3414)
You have got to take this out of the literal understanding and look a the metaphor.
2739 A powerful being from among the Jinn said "I will bring it to you before you rise from your station. For I am strong and trustworthy."
How can a "fantasy" talk ?
Same way you "talk" in your dreams at night The better question is how does one move a physical object at the speed of light?
4125 And We assigned to them companions who adorned their present and past actions. Thus, the retribution has been deserved by them the same as previous nations of Jinn and humans; all of them were losers.
How can there be a nation of "fantasies" ? Jinn here is used in the same context as humans being nations, clearly indicating "beings" rather than "thoughts".
Our imagination is connected to us. You are being to rigid with the story.
2710 "And throw down your staff." So when he saw it shake as if it were a Jinn, he ran away and would not turn back. "O Moses, do not fear, for My messengers shall have no fear from Me."
How can one compare a physical object to a "fantasy" ?
A mirage in the desert comes to mind.
5533 O tribes of Jinn and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the Earth, then go ahead and penetrate. You will not penetrate without authority.
How can there be a tribe of "fantasies" ? Here again humans and Jinn have the same context of "beings".
Thoughts are beings.
6128 And the Day We gather them all "O tribes of Jinn, you have managed to take many humans." Their supporters from the humans said "Our Lord, we have indeed enjoyed one another, and we have reached our destiny to which You delayed us." He said "The Fire is your dwelling, in it you shall abide eternally, except as your Lord wishes." Your Lord is Wise, Knowledgeable.
How can fire be the dwelling of a "fantasy" ?
Merily , merily, merily, merily, life is but a dream! Have you ever experienced that was so real that you didnt know you were sleep? Where you could even FEEL things? Was that real or imagined?
If you reflect on the dream world then it might shed some light on this topic for you.
Electromagnetic waves are "hidden" but can now be detected by various technologies. Perhaps in the future when people will have the technology to detect the presence of Jinn, they will not be as fantastic/hidden any more !!
So what guidance does "jinn" have for the past communities that are no longer here? They certainly had thier imagination.
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Peace be upon you JM,
I am also of the opinion that jinn are beings, human beings.
I can do nothing with your understanding but respect it, however where is the objective evidence of this?
Are humans capable of moving a chair at the speed of light?
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Are humans capable of moving a chair at the speed of light?
See http//www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=1976®ion=E1&CR=
Peace
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Peace be upon you JM,
I will refrain from responding on this thread so that we can focus on the article by Ayman and further that line of reasoning. I respect your understanding but do not agree. We can discuss it further in the jinn thread.
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Peace Tanveermd,
Firstly let me say that all of the understandings here on this thread are not that far apart. What you are saying about hidden beings is in a way true as far as other people's fantasies. Since you can't read their imagination, then they are in a way "hidden beings" as far as you are concerned and you can only see the creations of their fantasies. Thus, you can't see the imagination of an author but you can read his/her fiction book.
Similarly, JM's idea about them being human is not far from what I am saying, since the fantasy/imagination is inherently connected to the human.
A fantasy is clearly a thought and not a being. In my understanding "jinn" could mean "fantastic/hidden beings" or "fanciful/hidden beings" rather than "fantasies", as its usage in the great reading indicates a "being" rather than a "thought".
So tell us what those "fantastic/hidden beings" or "fanciful/hidden beings" are and how do they affect us? Fantasies are more real and measurable because one can measure and detect brainwaves made of electromagnetic energy (smokeless fire).
Moreover, we know that the increasing in rebellion "jinn" drive people to do wrong. You can look inside you for the answer for what makes you do wrong and the answer will never be "fantastic/hidden beings" or "fanciful/hidden beings" no more than it is ghosts. The fact is that when a thief steals, what drives him is his fantasy to be rich. Similarly, when an adulterer commits adultery, it is because he or she fantasizes about lusts. It is NEVER ghost-like "fantastic/hidden beings" or "fanciful/hidden beings" that makes you or anybody do wrong. Just look inside you.
For example
37158 And they invented a kinship between Him and the Jinn. But the Jinn know that they will be gathered.
Here Jinn appears to be "beings" rather than "thoughts". How can a "fantasy" know that it will be gathered ?Will everything in the heavens and the earth not be gathered (383)?
Don't you know that nothing from you will be hidden on the day of the account (691? When The God says "nothing", He means nothing, including your inner fantasy?
Do you doubt that everyone will see your deepest fantasy on the day of the account? So we should all be careful what we fantasize about.
5156 I did not create the Jinn and the humans except to serve Me.
How can a "fantasy" serve The God ? Here Jinn and humans are used in the same context as "beings" rather than "thoughts" with the ability to serve.Doesn't your fantasy/imagination serve The God when you combine it with the truth (knowledge) to imagine and invent something useful for humanity and creation?
On the other hand, aren't people just serving their own pleasures when they fantasize about lust, money, and power? In fact, such fantasies control them and drive them to do wrong.
2717 And Solomon's soldiers were gathered, comprising of humans and Jinn and birds, for they were to be spread out.
How can "fantasies" be soldiers ? The context clearly indicates they are "beings" rather than "thoughts".I would say that fantasies are better than any human soldiers when you discipline them. I can tell you that fundamentally the only difference between a Taliban soldier riding a donkey and a US pilot in a F-22 Raptor is that in the second case, the fantasies were enlisted with knowledge from aerodynamics, mechanics, electronics, etc. to invent the Raptor. So the Raptor is in fact the realization of the fantasy/imagination of the engineers and scientists who designed it.
You ask good questions but you forget to ask them to yourself. So please tell us how those ghostly "fantastic/hidden beings" can be soldiers?
3412 And for Solomon the wind was given, traveling one month coming and one month going, and We caused a spring of tar to flow for him. And from among the Jinn are those that worked for him by his Lord's leave; and any one of them who turns from Our commands, We shall cause him to taste the retribution of the Fire.
3413 They made for him what he desired of enclosures, and statues, and pools of deep reservoirs, and heavy pots. "O family of David, work to show thanks." Only a few of My servants are appreciative.
3414 Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the Jinn realised that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.
How can "fantasies" work ? (3412). How can fantasies make statues and pots ? (3413). How can fantasies realize ? (3414)How do you make a statue and pot? Don't you have to imagine it first? Whether we like it or not, our fantasy is fundamentally the one that makes it first. Also, if we use any tools to make it, those tools are the realization of the fantasy of the tool maker.
I never saw a statue suddenly appear out of thin air because it was built by "fantastic/hidden beings" or "fanciful/hidden beings". So tell us how the "fantastic/hidden beings" fit in 3412,13,14?
2739 A powerful being from among the Jinn said "I will bring it to you before you rise from your station. For I am strong and trustworthy."
How can a "fantasy" talk?A fantasy can talk in the same way that an ant, mountains, and your hands and legs can talk. In fact, if you read any fiction book, you are reading the talk of the fantasy of the author.
You forgot to ask about how a fantasy can bring something. Think about it, wouldn't it be nice if you were in Hawaii sitting on the beach right now? You can realize this fantasy by taking a vacation and buying a plane ticket. However, there is a problem because you don't have any vacation time left so you need to go there and get back in the same day. If you had the fantasies of engineers at NASA, Boeing and Airbus at your disposal, you will tell them about the problem and they imagine/fantasize a hypersonic low earth orbit personal VTOL air vehicle and its specs say "I can get you there and back before the day is over". Isn't that air vehicle the realization of the engineers' fantasy?
On the other hand, please tell us how the "fantastic/hidden beings" are able to tell you "I will take you to Hawaii"? Also, tell us how they would actually do it.
4125 And We assigned to them companions who adorned their present and past actions. Thus, the retribution has been deserved by them the same as previous nations of Jinn and humans; all of them were losers.
How can there be a nation of "fantasies" ? Jinn here is used in the same context as humans being nations, clearly indicating "beings" rather than "thoughts".Fantasies indeed multiply and present fantasies are descendants of previous fantasies. For example, the fantasy of "people getting their sins forgiven and returning as if they are newborn for going to Mecca and spinning seven times around a stone" is a descendant of the fantasy of Allat. We also know that the fantasy linked to a person "adorns his/her present and past actions". Thus, after returning from the so-called Hajj, the pilgrims think that by this action they bought a ticket to heaven.
On the other hand, please tell us what "fantastic/hidden beings" have to do with us?
2710 "And throw down your staff." So when he saw it shake as if it were a Jinn, he ran away and would not turn back. "O Moses, do not fear, for My messengers shall have no fear from Me."
How can one compare a physical object to a "fantasy" ?This passage actually confirms the meaning of "fantasy" because at that time the staff clearly didn't act like a physical object. Would a physical staff do such a thing? Clearly not! So it was as if Moses was imagining it.
On the other hand, please tell us what "fantastic/hidden beings" have to do with Moses' staff.
5533 O tribes of Jinn and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the Earth, then go ahead and penetrate. You will not penetrate without authority.
How can there be a tribe of "fantasies"? Here again humans and Jinn have the same context of "beings".The exact translation is not "tribes" it is "consorts". The word "3ashar" means to "constantly live with". So "ma3shar" means "living together" or "consorts". So 5533 is addressing humans and the fantasies that are consorts with them in the dual throughout the passage. Here is the meaning of the word from Classical Arabic Lexicons;
"ma3shar" Every group whose matter/affair is one.
6128 And the Day We gather them all "O tribes of Jinn, you have managed to take many humans." Their supporters from the humans said "Our Lord, we have indeed enjoyed one another, and we have reached our destiny to which You delayed us." He said "The Fire is your dwelling, in it you shall abide eternally, except as your Lord wishes." Your Lord is Wise, Knowledgeable.
How can fire be the dwelling of a "fantasy" ?The "fantasies" are the fuel of fire. So the fire is fueled by the imagination. It is the realization of the worst things imaginable.
Electromagnetic waves are "hidden" but can now be detected by various technologies. Perhaps in the future when people will have the technology to detect the presence of Jinn, they will not be as fantastic/hidden any more !!
So are you saying that all those passages about "jinn" are not relevant to you and don't provide you with any guidance. Do you think that those passages are meant to confuse us "technologically backward" people and that they are only meant as guidance for future people? I believe that all of the great reading is meant for all people through out the ages, including you and me.
As I said at the beginning, the answer is inside you.
I would encourage you to read the Qur'aan and look up ALL the signs mentioning "jinn" and The God willing you will start to have an idea of why He is telling us about them and what we should learn from it. Then you can use your hearing, eyesight and mind and reason and logic to arrive at your own understanding under The God's guidance. Let me know what conclusions you arrive at after that entire process and please give some evidences from the great reading to back them up.
This is good advice. However, you shouldn't dismiss anything and propose "fantastic/hidden beings" or "fanciful/hidden beings" without answering those same questions first. So please tell us why The God is telling us about "fantastic/hidden beings" and what we should learn from it.
I can tell you that The God is telling us about the fantasies because most people (including you judging from your questions above) believe that their fantasy will not be gathered and made apparent on the day of the account.
From The Creator's point of view, the fantasies are just another of His creations. We certainly didn't create our ability to have imagination, He did. So for all intents and purposes it is a creature of The God.
Moreover, our fantasy influence on us is fundamentally why we do wrong. Look inside you and you will see.
So to answer your question about what we should learn from it, we should learn to control our fantasy and make it obey The God and not let it control us and become exceeding in rebellion. If we do this, then this will have a direct impact on our lives here our final outcome in the ending.
I am still in the process of having an understanding about "jinn" according to the great reading and unfortunately do not have an EXACT understanding yet.
Only The God has an EXACT understanding of everything. If you wait for an EXACT understanding then you will wait for a long time for something that will never come. Also, what if the EXACT understanding is not exactly EXACT? People can be blocked from improving their understanding when they think they have an EXACT understanding. What we should strive for is a BETTER understanding. Right now, the understanding of "jinn" being fantasies is definitely better than ghostly "fantastic/hidden beings" or "fanciful/hidden beings".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace brother Kyle,
"Thoughts" is a more encompassing term than imagination. Remember that The God taught the human all the names and he was able to answer questions (which involves thinking) before the controllers (including the one from the "jinn"/imagination) were asked to obey him. So the human already had knowledge and the ability to think to answer questions BEFORE the fantasy was to obey him. It is those thoughts that we should use to control the fantasy and make it obey us so we can both serve The God.
Peace,
Ayman
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This passage actually confirms the meaning of "fantasy" because at that time the staff clearly didn't act like a physical object. Would a physical staff do such a thing? Clearly not! So it was as if Moses was imagining it.
this is an old divination trick used by magicians and "prophets" alike throughout the world. If you pull very fast in each end of certain snakes they become stiff. Their muscles lock up, so they become like a staff. The trick then is to throw the snake to the ground so it start to move again. LO and behold, magick...well not really, but back in the days everybody brought it!.
I disagree to jinn being fantasy alone, but it may be part the explanation when you look at it as a metaphor. Like MQ i have the oppinion that the book has 2 levels of understanding. Physical beings who look like us but who are further developed is in no way unlikely.
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Peace ayman,
I'm looking for a few clarifications of your theory.
So are there jinn/thoughts purely human creation, or can they exist outside of humans... that is to say are they intrinsically linked to humanity, or are they some sort of thoughtform or energyform that can exist independently of humans. If they were created before us, does it not indicate some sort of outside influence, if not of beings, but of some other sort of entity?
Second, as far as angels/controllers, I've been wondering if they have some kinds of parallels to for example what today are called "gods" for the Hindus and ancient Egyptians, whereby these angels/controllers have control over a specific realm of reality. Now, some have chosen to worship such entities as if they were God's partners (hence the appelation "gods"), but besides the issue of nomenclature and worshipability, do we not have very similar concepts here? What I mean is that could it be that the "gods" that the ancient Egyptians worshiped were in reality angles/controllers, and the mistake/idolatry of the ancient Egyptians (often mentioned in the Qur'an) was to assume that because of their powers they were gods worthy of worship instead of just servants created by the One God, and therefore not worthy of worship?
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Peace Ayman, Idolfree
If you have some time, can you try to refute my understanding of jinn, as exposed here ?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=63992#63992Thanks
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Peace be upon you Ayman,
Good response to Tanveer.
Let me respond to your post to me
Ayman
"Thoughts" is a more encompassing term than imagination. Remember that The God taught the human all the names and he was able to answer questions (which involves thinking) before the controllers (including the one from the "jinn"/imagination) were asked to obey him. So the human already had knowledge and the ability to think to answer questions BEFORE the fantasy was to obey him. It is those thoughts that we should use to control the fantasy and make it obey us so we can both serve The God.Yes, I agree that it is the verbal thoughts that direct the images. In fact it is our BELIEFS (thought + energy) that influence our images. If we sit back and reflect we will notice that we constantly replay scenarios(images and thoughts) in our heads of how we expect certain life issues to unfold according to our BELIEFS.
I understand "Adam" to be the verbal thought faculty, thats how "he" is able to think and to gain information and descriptions(not visual). It was the controllers who dealt with the imagery.
231- And He taught Adam the descriptions, all of them, then He displayed/exhibited/showed them on the controllers, so He said "Inform Me with (the) descriptions (of) those, if you were truthful."
One thing to reflect upon is that the verbal thinking is a segregative faculty, while imagination(visual thought) is a congregative faculty. So it appears that the job of the controllers might be to unify the thoughts into the "whole picture" (oneness). Just a thought.
Anyway, I started this response to talk about my usage of "thoughts", but I just started drifting, so I will stop here until I get everything together.
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Salaamun alaikum brother Ayman,
Thought provoking post.
Maybe the jinn are beings that have the ability to create fantasies in human thought ? So then the definition of jinn would be "a being made of a form of energy that is hidden to the common human physical senses and has the ability to create fantasies in human thoughts".
In the case of Solomon, the jinn made statues and pots that he desired. Here wouldn't desire be the fantasy ?
In many signs jinn and humans are mentioned in the same context making it appear that they are both beings but separate from each other. If jinn was fantasy then the sign should have read "jinn of ins" rather than "jinn and ins".
My HYPOTHESIS (conjecture) is that jinn are beings that could have as well been created from some form of energy and they exist in a different dimension and they have the ability to create fantasies in human thoughts. They may also have the ability to materialize in human shape thereby causing the confusion that jinn are also humans who are leaders or of a fiery nature. All of this is theoretically and scientifically possible.
If they are indeed made from energy and have electromagnetic nature (fantasies or beings) then maybe one day humans might be able to create devices able to detect those jinn ??
Just some thoughts polluted by fantasies or maybe the jinn are creating those fantasies in my thoughts ?? !!
If jinn are indeed "beings" that create fantasies in human thoughts then what we learn from that is to be careful of them by being AWARE of such beings and purge our thoughts of the fantasies they create by aligning our thoughts with Allah's revelations.
Peace,
Tanveer
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tanveermd,
Though I am in agreement with you in principle, there is still the question of free will. It is my understanding that the Qur'an indicates that the jinn have free will, and the ability to choose to be good or bad. Therefore, is not some kind of intelligence required?
As for seeing jinn, I think part of it has to be with them making themselves known using the same mechanisms they use to transfer fantasies and such, but I think it is also to objectively perceive them. I think perhaps certain mediums and psychics may be able to do so (then there are a bunch of fakes, outnumbering the real ones and giving them all a bad name), but science just hasn't become advanced enough to test it objectively - parapsychology is the name for the study of such phenomena, but as of yet they haven't been able to conduct objectively rigorous experiments - it should however be added that the scientific evidence, though not conclusive, points to the existence of the supernatural, and no one has been able to prove it doesn't exist. Just because we can't prove the existence of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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Peace Magi,
this is an old divination trick used by magicians and "prophets" alike throughout the world. If you pull very fast in each end of certain snakes they become stiff. Their muscles lock up, so they become like a staff. The trick then is to throw the snake to the ground so it start to move again. LO and behold, magick...well not really, but back in the days everybody brought it!.
I doubt that this is what happened in 2710. It doesn't seem logical that Moses played a trick on himself by holding a snake and then pulling it fast at each end to make it stiff and then threw it and when it started to move he got scared.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Claurianta
I'm looking for a few clarifications of your theory.
So are there jinn/thoughts purely human creation, or can they exist outside of humans... that is to say are they intrinsically linked to humanity, or are they some sort of thoughtform or energyform that can exist independently of humans. If they were created before us, does it not indicate some sort of outside influence, if not of beings, but of some other sort of entity?
The fantasy is made of energy and energy was created before humans and even before matter itself. There is much that we don't understand yet. For example, what was their function before the human? However, for the purpose of our salvation, I think the information that we are given is all we need.
Second, as far as angels/controllers, I've been wondering if they have some kinds of parallels to for example what today are called "gods" for the Hindus and ancient Egyptians, whereby these angels/controllers have control over a specific realm of reality. Now, some have chosen to worship such entities as if they were God's partners (hence the appelation "gods"), but besides the issue of nomenclature and worshipability, do we not have very similar concepts here? What I mean is that could it be that the "gods" that the ancient Egyptians worshiped were in reality angles/controllers, and the mistake/idolatry of the ancient Egyptians (often mentioned in the Qur'an) was to assume that because of their powers they were gods worthy of worship instead of just servants created by the One God, and therefore not worthy of worship?
You are right that people take those gods as controllers. For example, people took Allat as a controller of fertility. However, since those gods didn't actually control anything and have absolutely no power but were simply imagined to be so, they are actually fantasies/"jinn" (see 3440-41).
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace brother Kyle,
Yes, I agree that it is the verbal thoughts that direct the images. In fact it is our BELIEFS (thought + energy) that influence our images. If we sit back and reflect we will notice that we constantly replay scenarios(images and thoughts) in our heads of how we expect certain life issues to unfold according to our BELIEFS.
I understand "Adam" to be the verbal thought faculty, thats how "he" is able to think and to gain information and descriptions(not visual). It was the controllers who dealt with the imagery.
231- And He taught Adam the descriptions, all of them, then He displayed/exhibited/showed them on the controllers, so He said "Inform Me with (the) descriptions (of) those, if you were truthful."
One thing to reflect upon is that the verbal thinking is a segregative faculty, while imagination(visual thought) is a congregative faculty. So it appears that the job of the controllers might be to unify the thoughts into the "whole picture" (oneness). Just a thought.
Anyway, I started this response to talk about my usage of "thoughts", but I just started drifting, so I will stop here until I get everything together.
I assume you mean the faculty of "communication" as a the verbal faculty. The controllers were able to communicate and also "segregate" something as a bad deed (needlessly spilling blood - see 230). They were also able to "segregate" thoughts into ones that they hide and others that they revealed (233).
Also, what is a visual faculty anyway? It is just a way to "realize" or "understand". Thus, the following passage comes to mind
022.046
YUSUFALI Do they not travel through the land, so that their hearts (and minds) may thus learn wisdom and their ears may thus learn to hear? Truly it is not their eyes that are blind, but their hearts which are in their breasts.
PICKTHAL Have they not travelled in the land, and have they hearts wherewith to feel and ears wherewith to hear? For indeed it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts, which are within the bosoms, that grow blind.
SHAKIR Have they not travelled in the land so that they should have hearts with which to understand, or ears with which to hear? For surely it is not the eyes that are blind, but blind are the hearts which are in the breasts.
KHALIFA Did they not roam the earth, then use their minds to understand, and use their ears to hear? Indeed, the real blindness is not the blindness of the eyes, but the blindness of the hearts inside the chests.I guess one thing that I learned is to not follow a certain philosophy too strictly. Philosophy is just an imperfect man made approximation of how we view things at a certain point of time. If anything, the controllers are the ones who would have the ability to segregate or differentiate in order to "control" anything.
I am just thinking out loud and would appreciate your feedback.
Thanks and peace,
Ayman
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Peace Tanveermd,
Thought provoking post.
Maybe the jinn are beings that have the ability to create fantasies in human thought ? So then the definition of jinn would be "a being made of a form of energy that is hidden to the common human physical senses and has the ability to create fantasies in human thoughts".
For all intents and purposes they can be considered equivalent to "fantasy".
In the case of Solomon, the jinn made statues and pots that he desired. Here wouldn't desire be the fantasy ?
The exact word used in the passage in Chapter 34 is "yashaa" (will) not "yashtahi" (desire). The difference can be seen even in English when we hear someone having "strong will" in contrast to "strong desire".
In many signs jinn and humans are mentioned in the same context making it appear that they are both beings but separate from each other. If jinn was fantasy then the sign should have read "jinn of ins" rather than "jinn and ins".
The "jinn" is indeed described as the "qarin" OF "ins".
My HYPOTHESIS (conjecture) is that jinn are beings that could have as well been created from some form of energy and they exist in a different dimension and they have the ability to create fantasies in human thoughts. They may also have the ability to materialize in human shape thereby causing the confusion that jinn are also humans who are leaders or of a fiery nature. All of this is theoretically and scientifically possible.
If they are indeed made from energy and have electromagnetic nature (fantasies or beings) then maybe one day humans might be able to create devices able to detect those jinn ??
Just some thoughts polluted by fantasies or maybe the jinn are creating those fantasies in my thoughts ?? !!
If jinn are indeed "beings" that create fantasies in human thoughts then what we learn from that is to be careful of them by being AWARE of such beings and purge our thoughts of the fantasies they create by aligning our thoughts with Allah's revelations.
As you say above, how we treat them is to purge our thoughts of the bad fantasies ("shayateen"). So regardless of any hypothesis, for all intents and purposes "jinn" can be considered equivalent to "fantasy". When we purge the exceeding in rebellion fantasies, we automatically purge the "shayateen al-jinn".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Claurianta
Though I am in agreement with you in principle, there is still the question of free will. It is my understanding that the Qur'an indicates that the jinn have free will, and the ability to choose to be good or bad. Therefore, is not some kind of intelligence required?
Everything in the heavens and the earth has freedom of choice, including mountains (3372). So even molecules and electrons have the ability to choose. To us most things seem to lack this ability because they always make the right choice.
As for seeing jinn, I think part of it has to be with them making themselves known using the same mechanisms they use to transfer fantasies and such, but I think it is also to objectively perceive them. I think perhaps certain mediums and psychics may be able to do so (then there are a bunch of fakes, outnumbering the real ones and giving them all a bad name), but science just hasn't become advanced enough to test it objectively - parapsychology is the name for the study of such phenomena, but as of yet they haven't been able to conduct objectively rigorous experiments - it should however be added that the scientific evidence, though not conclusive, points to the existence of the supernatural, and no one has been able to prove it doesn't exist. Just because we can't prove the existence of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
What is seeing? Can a physically blind man not see the "jinn"/fantasy? Isn't the real seeing more like "understanding"? I now understand the "jinn" and see how they influence us. This is seeing. As for physically seeing them, you can only see the realization of the "jinn"/fantasies. You see it everyday whenever you see something that someone imagined and then made in the physical world.
Peace,
Ayman