MA MALAKAT AYMANUKUM -what is that?
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Peace sc. I dont see any problem with 424. Its just like a bracket explaining that 'asexuality' is not prohibited. In arabic the concept of brackets is there,look at the verse 53 and some of the verses on food prohibitions for examples of 'brackets' in arabic grammer.
Peace
sorry bro, there is no such bracket concept the arabic language, this is not true and not even near the truth, never heard of it
peace
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Peace ab and sc. Whether you want to call it brackets or something else its still exists. I read the verses in arabic,not english. Why are you guys soo scared of anything that you dont understand or agree with? I mean that question respectfully.
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Peace enquirer,
Whether you want to call it brackets or something else its still exists. I read the verses in arabic,not english.
Can you elucidate? Maybe post some verses in arabic with the brackets there so we can examine this concept more clearly? Afaik, there is no such concept in the arabic itself.
Why are you guys soo scared of anything that you dont understand or agree with? I mean that question respectfully.
What are you on about?
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Peace ab and sc. Whether you want to call it brackets or something else its still exists. I read the verses in arabic,not english. Why are you guys soo scared of anything that you dont understand or agree with? I mean that question respectfully.
Peace bro
certainly I'm not scared and most importantly I will accept anything you say if it has merit and makes sense
now what you say does not exist in the Quran and surely never taught at arabic schools, show me where in the Quran "Not a comic book please" just one bracket that is used
thank you
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lol
that was funny, me and sc almost said the same at the same exact time wink
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Does that mean I can get off your black list huh bro?!? D
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Peace ab and sc. I will use an example to illustrate in arabic how do you know where to stop at a sentence? By an end of ayah marker or the structure of the sentence. Does arabic have emphasis?(eg !) Yes it does (eg 'inna') but you dont call the inna an exclamation mark. please go beyond the word bracket and look at the usage. I dont have an arabic writer on my pc so i cant send you arabic letters. In the verse i quoted the illa performs the function of a bracket.(53).Also if there is no concept of a bracket then in 53 why does the topic shift from food to the completion of the deen and then back to food?
peace. -
Peace enq,
please go beyond the word bracket and look at the usage. I dont have an arabic writer on my pc so i cant send you arabic letters. In the verse i quoted the illa performs the function of a bracket.(53).
I'm taking this step by step so I know where you are coming from.
Previously you wrote-
The part i mean is the ; 'and what was eaten by wild beasts(except what you rescued/slaughtered)'. The exception(illa) is like a bracket. Hope im clear.
Now are you saying that there are some words not present in the arabic itself?
Below is the literal translation-
53 Forbidden on you is the animal whose death was caused by suffocation or strangulation, and the blood, and the pig's/swine's flesh/meat, and what was declared/praised the name of whom the sacrifice was made for to other than God with it, and the strangled/choked to death, and the beaten to death/dead due to sickness, and the fallen/destroyed/perished (to death), and the animal whose death was caused by another's horns , and what the beast or bird of prey ate (from), except what you slaughtered, and what was slaughtered on the slaughter places, and that you seek oath with the featherless arrows , that (is) debauchery ; today those who disbelieved despair from your religion, so do not fear them, and fear Me, today I completed for you your religion, and I completed on you My blessing , and I accepted/approved for you the Islam (as) a religion, so who was forced in hunger, not deviating from righteousness/justice to a sin/crime, so that God was/is forgiving, merciful.
So...what exactly is this 'bracket concept' as you wrote in your post above? How is the exception a bracket?
Also if there is no concept of a bracket then in 53 why does the topic shift from food to the completion of the deen and then back to food?
Huh? How does this shift relate to brackets filling in? Please explain?
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Does that mean I can get off your black list huh bro?!? D
you were not on the black list sister, you just didn't give yourself a chance to know me and i guess i did the same mistake
peace
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Salam JHamza, all,
Salaam Simple,
I pretty much agree with this article
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/malakat.htm
The problem with this article is that one of its conclusions contradicts the Quran verses in which there is a feminine form (ma malakat imanuhuna) for this expression "ma malaka imanukum" so it can not be restricted to men only. The article does not take into consideration the verses where "ma makat imanuhuna" appears but if I follow the logic in this article based on the fact that this same expression applies to women too in Quran, women can have sex with their husbands AND/OR "ma malakat imanuhuna"-).
My point Brother is to be carefull with these articles, mainly when the study is partial. And God knows best. Peace. Myr. -
Peace AB,
you were not on the black list sister, you just didn't give yourself a chance to know me and i guess i did the same mistake
And all this time, I thought I was on it. Ah well. Mistakes can be rectified. Thanks bro )
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Peace ab,sc,myr and all. I mean the exception(illa) acts like a bracket. But lets not get caught up in sematics and nit-picking.We agree its an exception in arabic.(illa). Now back to the topic,myr made a good point about when aymanikum becomes feminine,how does that fit? Can females have consorts as well? Wow sexual equality at last!!! And please logically show how my understanding does not fit with 424 or other verses. Thank you.
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Peace,
I mean the exception(illa) acts like a bracket. But lets not get caught up in sematics and nit-picking.We agree its an exception in arabic.(illa).
I don't know what you mean by 'we agree'. We ALL know it's an exception, it says except right there! What I want you to show me is how it acts like a bracket since you made the claim. What is your definition of brackets? Is it different from what is commonly understood? All I would like is some sound clarification to your claims of their being a 'bracket system/concept' in the arabic itself. I can understand if it might be 'nitpicking' to you, but the details are what the foundation of any constructive discussion is, especially one dealing with so many nuances.
Now back to the topic,myr made a good point about when aymanikum becomes feminine,how does that fit?
It remains to be studied throuroughly keeping in mind the wording and the arabic involved and what the forms signify. Jumping to conclusions without sufficient understanding of the language/grammar involved as well as farfetched ideas amongst other factors can have detrimental consequences. This is pointed out in sis Myr's post as well, which I completely agree with.
And please logically show how my understanding does not fit with 424 or other verses. Thank you.
I think I did, to which you responded with the 'bracket' concept which remains shrouded in mystery. Please clarify?
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Peace sc and all. Ok to save unnecessary discussion it might be that i have a different definition of brackets. What i am saying is that the exception in 424 is just showing that its not prohibited to express your sexuality to yourself. The list of prohibitions is about who you cant have relations with,so whats the problem with the exception being yourself. It fits in arabic,you being 'ma malakat aymanikum'. By the way why is it 'ma' and not 'man' in the arabic? If the the quran is clear arabic,why even on basic concepts and verses people cant explain the arabic. Maybe there is a different way of intepreting...(eg mystic and metaphorical.)
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Peace,
Ok to save unnecessary discussion it might be that i have a different definition of brackets.
Oh that's what it was.
What i am saying is that the exception in 424 is just showing that its not prohibited to express your sexuality to yourself. The list of prohibitions is about who you cant have relations with,so whats the problem with the exception being yourself.
This is not a different definition of brackets. It is NO definition of brackets. Why you even brought in brackets is beyond me. What you are saying in this quote is something that is not really contested. Seriously, 'relations with yourself'?!? It's dealing with social laws, who to marry and have sexual relations with other than oneself which is pretty much understood anyway, not if one plays with and by themselves in the wee hours of the night (or any time for that matter). When sex and it's related topics are addressed in the quran, it's dealing with more than one person for crying out loud!
By the way why is it 'ma' and not 'man' in the arabic? You know you all state the quran is clear arabic,yet even on basic concepts and verses you cant explain the arabic. Maybe there is a different way of intepreting...(eg mystic and metaphorical.)
The quran is clear. It's the humans who partially study and run away with concepts thinking this is how it should be. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Mystical interpretations? Don't get me started.
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Peace sc. Some people are undecided on whether masturbation is ok according to the quran.(especially if they are from a 'traditional' islamic understanding,or a religion that says it is wrong etc...) Again if the arabic is clear why ma instead of man? How do you know sex is discussed only in a social setting with others in the quran? where is masturbation in the book which 'has nothing left out of it'? And the brackets issue is a 'red herring' not relevent anymore. I class brackets as a clause or explanation between words,but thats my subjective opinion,i could be wrong according to you and others--thats fine. You seem emotional in your posts. We are supposed to be discussing not arguing. .
Peace. -
Some people are undecided on whether masturbation is ok according to the quran.
Apparently those people have no common sense, nor do they want to spend time reading the quran and understanding what it says. It's quite clear if one does that.
How do you know sex is discussed only in a social setting with others in the quran?
Because that is how it is discussed, as part of social laws (etiquette/rules) of interaction with others. Can you show me where it says Lo! O my pious flock! It is okay, I repeat okay to have 'sex' with yourself roll It is already understood and is not covered in the social laws that govern one's interaction with others. As mentioned you arn't 'marrying' yourself in 424 are you, or a spouse that already is married to you? Or can we say that man is born married to himself and there is no formal ceremony? It's like saying don't eat meat thats bad for it is bad. Good times that thread.
where is masturbation in the book which 'has nothing left out of it'?
Apparently God decided to add what He thought was important for our spiritual and material success, and apparently masturabation or according to you 'sex with oneself' is understood as being okay or there would have been prohibition. Damn this is like basic common sense.
And the brackets issue is a 'red herring' not relevent anymore.
Ah so you do accept it, finally. Yes, indeed it was something that never should have seen the light of day, let alone posted on a thread.
I class brackets as a clause or explanation between words,but thats my subjective opinion,i could be wrong according to you and others--thats fine.
When talking about something commonly known in english, as say brackets, it is best to either go with the commonly known meaning or define what your take on brackets is in the start. You said it is present in arabic, and in one post that it is present in the arabic grammar. So when I asked you what you meant by brackets and how they are used, you started obfuscating and telling me that there is emphasis in arabic and illa performs the function of brackets and why the verses shift suddenly.
Your 'definition' of brackets as stated above are inserting your own words and meanings. Not what is actually stated/written in the quran. This is what I understood in the start and asked you about, but you didn't quite want to accept it then. It's clear now though, so thanks.
You seem emotional in your posts. We are supposed to be discussing not arguing. .
You seem to have quite a vivid imagination. We are discussing but apparently you have issues besides that of obfuscating. You are seeing things that are not there, like your previous statement-
Why are you guys soo scared of anything that you dont understand or agree with?
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Peace sc. re-read your posts to me and ask yourself 'Are my manners in line with quranic morality?'
Peace. -
sc. re-read your posts to me and ask yourself 'Are my manners in line with quranic morality?'
Yeah obfuscate again. Thanks for the 'debate'. You do take your own advice do you not? Ask youself 'Is what I posted to obfuscate or to sincerely discuss'. I think it's quite clear to those reading.
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Peace sc. May all our hearts and minds be on the right path.