MA MALAKAT AYMANUKUM -what is that?
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Peace ab,sc,myr and all. I mean the exception(illa) acts like a bracket. But lets not get caught up in sematics and nit-picking.We agree its an exception in arabic.(illa). Now back to the topic,myr made a good point about when aymanikum becomes feminine,how does that fit? Can females have consorts as well? Wow sexual equality at last!!! And please logically show how my understanding does not fit with 424 or other verses. Thank you.
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Peace,
I mean the exception(illa) acts like a bracket. But lets not get caught up in sematics and nit-picking.We agree its an exception in arabic.(illa).
I don't know what you mean by 'we agree'. We ALL know it's an exception, it says except right there! What I want you to show me is how it acts like a bracket since you made the claim. What is your definition of brackets? Is it different from what is commonly understood? All I would like is some sound clarification to your claims of their being a 'bracket system/concept' in the arabic itself. I can understand if it might be 'nitpicking' to you, but the details are what the foundation of any constructive discussion is, especially one dealing with so many nuances.
Now back to the topic,myr made a good point about when aymanikum becomes feminine,how does that fit?
It remains to be studied throuroughly keeping in mind the wording and the arabic involved and what the forms signify. Jumping to conclusions without sufficient understanding of the language/grammar involved as well as farfetched ideas amongst other factors can have detrimental consequences. This is pointed out in sis Myr's post as well, which I completely agree with.
And please logically show how my understanding does not fit with 424 or other verses. Thank you.
I think I did, to which you responded with the 'bracket' concept which remains shrouded in mystery. Please clarify?
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Peace sc and all. Ok to save unnecessary discussion it might be that i have a different definition of brackets. What i am saying is that the exception in 424 is just showing that its not prohibited to express your sexuality to yourself. The list of prohibitions is about who you cant have relations with,so whats the problem with the exception being yourself. It fits in arabic,you being 'ma malakat aymanikum'. By the way why is it 'ma' and not 'man' in the arabic? If the the quran is clear arabic,why even on basic concepts and verses people cant explain the arabic. Maybe there is a different way of intepreting...(eg mystic and metaphorical.)
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Peace,
Ok to save unnecessary discussion it might be that i have a different definition of brackets.
Oh that's what it was.
What i am saying is that the exception in 424 is just showing that its not prohibited to express your sexuality to yourself. The list of prohibitions is about who you cant have relations with,so whats the problem with the exception being yourself.
This is not a different definition of brackets. It is NO definition of brackets. Why you even brought in brackets is beyond me. What you are saying in this quote is something that is not really contested. Seriously, 'relations with yourself'?!? It's dealing with social laws, who to marry and have sexual relations with other than oneself which is pretty much understood anyway, not if one plays with and by themselves in the wee hours of the night (or any time for that matter). When sex and it's related topics are addressed in the quran, it's dealing with more than one person for crying out loud!
By the way why is it 'ma' and not 'man' in the arabic? You know you all state the quran is clear arabic,yet even on basic concepts and verses you cant explain the arabic. Maybe there is a different way of intepreting...(eg mystic and metaphorical.)
The quran is clear. It's the humans who partially study and run away with concepts thinking this is how it should be. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Mystical interpretations? Don't get me started.
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Peace sc. Some people are undecided on whether masturbation is ok according to the quran.(especially if they are from a 'traditional' islamic understanding,or a religion that says it is wrong etc...) Again if the arabic is clear why ma instead of man? How do you know sex is discussed only in a social setting with others in the quran? where is masturbation in the book which 'has nothing left out of it'? And the brackets issue is a 'red herring' not relevent anymore. I class brackets as a clause or explanation between words,but thats my subjective opinion,i could be wrong according to you and others--thats fine. You seem emotional in your posts. We are supposed to be discussing not arguing. .
Peace. -
Some people are undecided on whether masturbation is ok according to the quran.
Apparently those people have no common sense, nor do they want to spend time reading the quran and understanding what it says. It's quite clear if one does that.
How do you know sex is discussed only in a social setting with others in the quran?
Because that is how it is discussed, as part of social laws (etiquette/rules) of interaction with others. Can you show me where it says Lo! O my pious flock! It is okay, I repeat okay to have 'sex' with yourself roll It is already understood and is not covered in the social laws that govern one's interaction with others. As mentioned you arn't 'marrying' yourself in 424 are you, or a spouse that already is married to you? Or can we say that man is born married to himself and there is no formal ceremony? It's like saying don't eat meat thats bad for it is bad. Good times that thread.
where is masturbation in the book which 'has nothing left out of it'?
Apparently God decided to add what He thought was important for our spiritual and material success, and apparently masturabation or according to you 'sex with oneself' is understood as being okay or there would have been prohibition. Damn this is like basic common sense.
And the brackets issue is a 'red herring' not relevent anymore.
Ah so you do accept it, finally. Yes, indeed it was something that never should have seen the light of day, let alone posted on a thread.
I class brackets as a clause or explanation between words,but thats my subjective opinion,i could be wrong according to you and others--thats fine.
When talking about something commonly known in english, as say brackets, it is best to either go with the commonly known meaning or define what your take on brackets is in the start. You said it is present in arabic, and in one post that it is present in the arabic grammar. So when I asked you what you meant by brackets and how they are used, you started obfuscating and telling me that there is emphasis in arabic and illa performs the function of brackets and why the verses shift suddenly.
Your 'definition' of brackets as stated above are inserting your own words and meanings. Not what is actually stated/written in the quran. This is what I understood in the start and asked you about, but you didn't quite want to accept it then. It's clear now though, so thanks.
You seem emotional in your posts. We are supposed to be discussing not arguing. .
You seem to have quite a vivid imagination. We are discussing but apparently you have issues besides that of obfuscating. You are seeing things that are not there, like your previous statement-
Why are you guys soo scared of anything that you dont understand or agree with?
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Peace sc. re-read your posts to me and ask yourself 'Are my manners in line with quranic morality?'
Peace. -
sc. re-read your posts to me and ask yourself 'Are my manners in line with quranic morality?'
Yeah obfuscate again. Thanks for the 'debate'. You do take your own advice do you not? Ask youself 'Is what I posted to obfuscate or to sincerely discuss'. I think it's quite clear to those reading.
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Peace sc. May all our hearts and minds be on the right path.
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Peace enq,
May you never raise the subject of brackets again D
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peace sc. ok,to keep the peace i will not mention br.....s. Take care.
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What I understand from "the great reading" is that the expression MA MALAKAT AYMAN/UKUM,UHUM,UHUNNA means either one of these two groups of people
(1)females whom men have taken in wedlock by a special oath (236; 3070; 3350; 3352)
(2)males and females whom well-to-do people have taken under their protection by oath (43,24,25,36; 1671; 2431,33,58; 3028; 3355)
So the translations of the verses containing the expression change accordingly from the classical translations, as is seen in 43, 424, 425, 235-6, 3350, adn 3352.
43
If you fear that you will not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry (off the orphan) women who authorize you, two or three or four (each to a man), but if in this case you fear that you will fail to be equtible, then only one or WHOM YOU HAVE TAKEN UNDER YOUR PROTECTION BY OATH. That will be better for you in order to avoid falling into poverty.424
And the protected believing women except those WHOM YOU HAVE TAKEN UNDER YOUR PROTECTION BY OATH. This is God?s ordinance binding upon you. Beyond this, lawful to you is all the rest provided that you offer them of your possessions, behaving decently rather than indecenly, giving them the dower due to them in return for the benefits you derive from them; however, if you mutually agree to make changes afterwards there is no blame on any of you. Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.425
If men from among you do not have the means wherewith to marry self-protected believing women, give those men in wedlock the believing girls WHOM YOU HAVE TAKEN UNDER YOUR PROTECTION BY OATH. Allah has full knowledge of your faith; you are all equal. Marry them with the leave of their PROTECTORS, and give them their dowers; in a manner decent not indecent, nor indulging in secret relationships; and if they commit indecency when they are in Islam, their punishment is half the punishmet meted to self-protected believing women. This is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you to practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.235-6
Believers are those who conceal their genital organs except from their spouses or from THOSE WHOM THEY HAVE TAKEN IN WEDLOCK BY A SPECIAL OATH, due to whom they are not blamed.33.050
O Prophet! We have made lawful to you your wives to whom thou have paid their dowers; and THOSE WHOM YOU HAVE TAKEN IN WEDLOCK BY A SPECIAL OATH from among those whom Allah has assigned to you; and the daughters, who migrated with you, of your paternal uncles and aunts and of your maternal uncles and aunts; and any believing woman who gives herself up to the Prophet if the Prophet agrees to take her in wedlock and this being only for you rather than the believers at large. We know what We have appointed for the believers as to their wives and THOSE WHOM THEY HAVE TAKEN IN WEDLOCK BY A SPECIAL OATH; so that there should be no difficulty for you. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.033.052
(O Prophet!) No other women shall henceforth be lawful to you, nor are you allowed to replace your present wives by them even if their beauty pleases you, except THOSE WHOM YOU HAVE TAKEN IN WEDLOCK BY A SPECIAL OATH. Allah does watch over all things.Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay